Wine in the first century

[jonathan.borland]

I agree completely with your last statement.

I have never one time offended anyone in Japan (where 95% of adults drink; I've even heard of whiskey at a PTA meeting) by telling them I do not drink. But many, many times telling them this has given me an opportunity to witness for Christ. It works this way. They say, "Huh? You don't drink? Why in the world not?" My answer is, "I don't need to. I have the joy of the Lord in my soul because I'm saved. I have no need for bottled joy." And we go on from there.

Good one, John! My rejection lines are very similar. My general dilemma is phrasing my rejection conversation in such a way that this atheist's first run in with a foreign Christian does not end with yet another barrier to reception: "If I become a Christian I can't drink with my buds anymore," a friendship death sentence in their minds. In the end I usually use the saying, "Our friendship's good, allow me to use tea instead of wine" (感情有，茶代酒). I usually try to refrain from using the Conficianism, "Immorality follows drinking" (酒后无德), unless I perceive that such is the case in their lives.

 

[Luke2427]

Weaker Brothers

I agree completely with your last statement.

I have never one time offended anyone in Japan (where 95% of adults drink; I've even heard of whiskey at a PTA meeting) by telling them I do not drink. But many, many times telling them this has given me an opportunity to witness for Christ. It works this way. They say, "Huh? You don't drink? Why in the world not?" My answer is, "I don't need to. I have the joy of the Lord in my soul because I'm saved. I have no need for bottled joy." And we go on from there.

Do you eat chocolate? Do you drink soft drinks or sweet tea? Do you eat cake? Do you drink coffee?

Would it enhance your witness if someone offered you a piece of cake and you said, "I don't eat cake," and they said, "Why not?" and you said, "Because I have the joy of the Lord in my heart and I don't need cake."

I don't think so.

God gave us these things to enjoy and it does not enhance your witness to claim that you don't want them because you have the joy of the Lord in your heart.

I don't think everyone has to drink any more than I think everyone has to eat cake. But to claim that the reason you don't do it is because you have the joy of the Lord is not good- and I'll tell you why:

HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of Christians throughout church history have enjoyed intoxicating beverages. Millions upon millions in this world NOW enjoy this blessing that Scripture says that God has given to man.

Your statement implies that you have a joy that they do not have.

I mean you have a spiritual joy that Martin Luther never attained.

You have a joy of the Lord that the pilgrims and puritans who founded this land knew nothing of.

But I will say this- I used to say the EXACT- I mean IDENTICAL same thing. Since I have matured from clinging to dogma I was raised on which is not in the Bible, I have changed my position on this altogether.

And I can say this- I have more joy now than I ever had as a teetotaler.

I am not saying that alcohol has enhanced my spiritual joy one bit. But growing up spiritually HAS.

The weaker brother is the one who abstains from things that God gave him to enjoy. There is greater joy in maturing out of that weakness.

There is nothing wrong at all with Christians who do not drink. Nothing at all. And they can certainly be as spiritually mature as those who do.

But for those who really have a conscience issue concerning consuming alcohol; those who think NOT consuming it is an indication of greater spiritual depth- those people really are the weaker brothers.

 

[John of Japan]

Good one, John! My rejection lines are very similar. My general dilemma is phrasing my rejection conversation in such a way that this atheist's first run in with a foreign Christian does not end with yet another barrier to reception: "If I become a Christian I can't drink with my buds anymore," a friendship death sentence in their minds. In the end I usually use the saying, "Our friendship's good, allow me to use tea instead of wine" (感情有，茶代酒). I usually try to refrain from using the Conficianism, "Immorality follows drinking" (酒后无德), unless I perceive that such is the case in their lives.

Yes, very good. I absolutely don't want to offend a Japanese non-believer by judging their drinking, which is a part of their culture. That would be insulting both them personally as well as their culture.

If they press me for further information, I have on occasion told them of my alcoholic grandfather and how that hurt my father, and they totally understand because of their Confucian (in Japan also) respect for parents.

Concerning drinking in Europe, David Hesselgrave told in one of his missiology texts (either Planting Churches Cross-Culturally or Communicating Christ Cross-Culturally, I forget which) about a missionary who went to Germany, participated in their drinking culture and had to leave the field because of alcoholism. Just saying....

 

[Winman]

And I can say this- I have more joy now than I ever had as a teetotaler.

This might be the funniest statement I have ever seen here at BB.

There is nothing wrong at all with Christians who do not drink. Nothing at all. And they can certainly be as spiritually mature as those who do.

I was mistaken, this statement is even funnier.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Yes, I bet Noah and Lot and all the others were quite joyful. Eat, drink, and be merry is not really a positive statement.

 

[John of Japan]

Do you eat chocolate? Do you drink soft drinks or sweet tea? Do you eat cake? Do you drink coffee?

Huge non sequiter. Alcohol is a drug.

 

[glfredrick]

Huge non sequiter. Alcohol is a drug.

They are all drugs...

Chemicals that we place into our body in order to sustain and feed. The overabundance of any is as harmful as any other.

 

[Zenas]

They are all drugs...

Chemicals that we place into our body in order to sustain and feed. The overabundance of any is as harmful as any other.

GL, you're right of course. But no one ever abused his family, or caused injury or death to another with an automobile because he consumed too much chocolate, caffeine, sugar, etc. I do use alcohol, and I use too much of those other things as well, but I don't have a problem with it. The last time I drank enough to be legally impaired was when I was in college. However, I recognize there are those who can't stop drinking until they are out of control and those people should not drink. We as Christians should do nothing to encourage those people to drink, and I think that is an example of what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 8.

 

[glfredrick]

 

[Luke2427]

They are all drugs...

Chemicals that we place into our body in order to sustain and feed. The overabundance of any is as harmful as any other.

Right. Caffeine is a drug- any pharmacist will tell you that. Chocolate stimulates the release of endorphins which resemble opiates.

You can get addicted to sugar- millions are. And more people die of food addictions every year BY FAR than die from alcoholism.

I think everybody already knows this- I cited research for this fact the last thread I participated in along these lines. But if you don't know it, I will gladly produce the scientific research.

 

[Amy.G]

This post should have come with a warning label.

 

[DHK]

Right. Caffeine is a drug- any pharmacist will tell you that. Chocolate stimulates the release of endorphins which resemble opiates.

You can get addicted to sugar- millions are. And more people die of food addictions every year BY FAR than die from alcoholism.

I think everybody already knows this- I cited research for this fact the last thread I participated in along these lines. But if you don't know it, I will gladly produce the scientific research.

All non sequitors. You are reaching, grasping at straws, and I think you know it. I have never known families destroyed by eating chocolate or drinking soda. I have never held a funeral for one who died of caffeine overdose, but I have for the early demise of a father who died of sclerosis of the liver directly attributed to his alcoholism. I have never seen a family destroyed and split because of caffeine, but I have seen many destroyed and split because of alcoholism. I don't know of any CCC group (Coffee & Caffeine Control group), but I have heard of AAA. I have never heard of a baby born addicted to caffeine, but I have heard the sorrow and anguish of women who have given birth to their babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome. I could go on with this list and fill the post until it would be too long to post. The negative effects of alcoholism are too many to count. Ask MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving). I am sure that they will give you plenty of information.

Your red herring is pitiful, and shameful. Give it up.

 

[glfredrick]

This post should have come with a warning label.

I applied discretion to the pictures... Just google obese people and see what comes up. No, on the other hand, I cannot tell another believer to do that in good conscience.

 

[Luke2427]

All non sequitors. You are reaching, grasping at straws, and I think you know it. I have never known families destroyed by eating chocolate or drinking soda. I have never held a funeral for one who died of caffeine overdose, but I have for the early demise of a father who died of sclerosis of the liver directly attributed to his alcoholism. I have never seen a family destroyed and split because of caffeine, but I have seen many destroyed and split because of alcoholism. I don't know of any CCC group (Coffee & Caffeine Control group), but I have heard of AAA. I have never heard of a baby born addicted to caffeine, but I have heard the sorrow and anguish of women who have given birth to their babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome. I could go on with this list and fill the post until it would be too long to post. The negative effects of alcoholism are too many to count. Ask MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving). I am sure that they will give you plenty of information.

Your red herring is pitiful, and shameful. Give it up.

I get accused sometimes of being inflammatory.

But when you speak like this saying someone';s argument is "pitiful, shameful, etc..." you need to know that this is the epitome of unfruitful inflammatory.

It is not red herring.

It is true that caffeine is a drug.

It is true that chocolate releases endorphins in the body which resemble opiates.

And it is true that far more people die of food addictions than alcoholism.

The rest of your post is emotional hyperbole and does not make a point which has not already been clearly refuted in this thread.

 

[DHK]

I get accused sometimes of being inflammatory.

But when you speak like this saying someone';s argument is "pitiful, shameful, etc..." you need to know that this is the epitome of unfruitful inflammatory.

It is not red herring.

It is true that caffeine is a drug.

It is true that chocolate releases endorphins in the body which resemble opiates.

And it is true that far more people die of food addictions than alcoholism.

The rest of your post is emotional hyperbole and does not make a point which has not already been clearly refuted in this thread.

It is not hyperbole at all. I have officiated at many funerals. The cause of many of them has been alcohol related--some because of another driver, some because of the unsaved person involved. My wife takes occasional tylenol for headaches. But I have taken away a razorblade from someone trying to commit suicide because she was high on cocaine. You compare apples and oranges when you classify caffeine as a drug. People don't commit suicide over a cup of coffee. But they do when they take ecstasy, cocaine, etc. "Raves" are the big thing for young people today. And many die as a result of them because of unsafe drugs. You don't realize the heartache I have faced in my ministry, both on the mission field and at home with those involved in drugs and alcohol, and yet to dare to compare them to tea, coffee, candy, etc., is absolutely ridiculous.

Have you read that amount people that die because of alcohol related car accidents? I doubt it. Liver disease? I doubt it. Alcoholic related diseases? I doubt it. I don't think you are fully informed. Neither do you take into consideration the broken homes and the trail of devastation left behind because of the bottle--the destitute, the needless consumption of the family's income, etc. You haven't thought things through.

BTW, the fact that chocolate releases endomorphins is a good thing, not a bad thing. That is why they call it a "comfort food." It doesn't do harm to the body. Your information is invalid; you are misinformed.

 

[Luke2427]

It is not hyperbole at all. I have officiated at many funerals. The cause of many of them has been alcohol related--some because of another driver, some because of the unsaved person involved. My wife takes occasional tylenol for headaches. But I have taken away a razorblade from someone trying to commit suicide because she was high on cocaine. You compare apples and oranges when you classify caffeine as a drug. People don't commit suicide over a cup of coffee. But they do when they take ecstasy, cocaine, etc. "Raves" are the big thing for young people today. And many die as a result of them because of unsafe drugs. You don't realize the heartache I have faced in my ministry, both on the mission field and at home with those involved in drugs and alcohol, and yet to dare to compare them to tea, coffee, candy, etc., is absolutely ridiculous.

Have you read that amount people that die because of alcohol related car accidents? I doubt it. Liver disease? I doubt it. Alcoholic related diseases? I doubt it. I don't think you are fully informed. Neither do you take into consideration the broken homes and the trail of devastation left behind because of the bottle--the destitute, the needless consumption of the family's income, etc. You haven't thought things through.

BTW, the fact that chocolate releases endomorphins is a good thing, not a bad thing. That is why they call it a "comfort food." It doesn't do harm to the body. Your information is invalid; you are misinformed.

Leading Causes of Death
Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

According to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, there are 105,000 alcohol related deaths annually due to drunken drivers and alcohol related injuries and diseases. AFA journal - 6/90

-- Better lifestyle habits -- think less junk food, more fish and more exercise -- can help prevent 80 percent of coronary heart disease and 90 percent of type 2 diabetes.
"If you exercise, stay lean, eat your fruits and vegetables, people who do this throughout life, they might reduce their risks by 90 or 95 percent," Rizza, a professor at the Mayo Clinic added.


These are the FACTS, DHK. More people, by FAR, bury their loved ones every year due to food addictions than alcohol addictions.

There are LITERALLY hundreds of THOUSANDS of more people who die due to indulgence in food than die due to indulgence in alcohol every year. More tears at funerals, more time spent weeping and worrying in waiting rooms of hospitals and in the backs of rushing ambulances every year over FOOD abuse than ALCOHOL abuse.

Billions more dollars are spent on health care for obesity issues than alcohol issues every year. BILLIONS.

MACDONALD'S is more deadly BY FAR than Jack Daniels.


These are the FACTS.

I realize that they go against what you believe and that as a fundamentalist, like I used to be, it is EXTREMELY hard for you to admit that what you have believed for years is dead wrong- but if the cat is rubbed the wrong way....

 

[DHK]

The Magnitude of the Alcohol/Drug-Related Crash Problem in Canada: Overview

MADD Canada has adopted a comprehensive approach in assessing the impairment-related (alcohol/drugs) crash problem in Canada. MADD Canada has attempted to obtain a complete picture which encompasses: alcohol and drugs; all types of vehicles and vessels; the full range of harms and losses (fatalities, injuries, property damage, and their social costs); and crashes that occur on public and private roads and property, and on the water. This broad approach is mandated by MADD Canada's mission, which is to assist all victims of impaired crashes and to reduce the total number of fatalities, injuries, and property damage crashes.



In 2009, it was estimated that 2,575 individuals were killed in motor vehicle crashes in Canada. MADD Canada estimates that at a minimum 1,074 of these fatalities were impairment-related


Given the limits on the 1,074 figure, MADD Canada estimates there are somewhere between 1,250 and 1,500 impairment-related crash deaths in Canada each year (3.4– 4.1 deaths per day).



In 2009, it was estimated that about 303,850 individuals were injured in motor vehicle crashes. MADD Canada estimates that approximately 63,338 of these individuals were injured in impairment-related crashes (roughly 174 per day). Note that this figure is limited to motor vehicle crashes only.


In 2009, it was estimated that approximately 1,673,750 motor vehicles were involved in property damage-only crashes in Canada. MADD Canada estimates that approximately 209,336 of these vehicles were damaged in impairment-related crashes (roughly 574 per day).



Using a social cost model, impairment-related driving deaths, injuries and property damage-only crashes in Canada can be estimated to have cost $20.15 billion in 2009. This model is recent, is based on extensive analysis, and was prepared for the federal Ministry of Transportation. This figure is also limited to motor vehicle crashes.



[Revised January 2012] For additional statistics, please see Estimating the Number and Cost of Impairment-Related Traffic Crashes in Canada: 1999 – 2009. Includes Provincial statistics.


http://madd.ca/madd2/en/impaired_driving/impaired_driving_statistics.html


Note, that these statistics are for Canada only. Canada has a population of about 33 million. The U.S. population is almost ten times that of Canada. So multiply these statistics by ten and you would have the approximate stats for the U.S.
http://www.madd.ca/english/research/estimating_presence.pdf

 

[mandym]

Leading Causes of Death
Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

According to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, there are 105,000 alcohol related deaths annually due to drunken drivers and alcohol related injuries and diseases. AFA journal - 6/90

-- Better lifestyle habits -- think less junk food, more fish and more exercise -- can help prevent 80 percent of coronary heart disease and 90 percent of type 2 diabetes.
"If you exercise, stay lean, eat your fruits and vegetables, people who do this throughout life, they might reduce their risks by 90 or 95 percent," Rizza, a professor at the Mayo Clinic added.


These are the FACTS, DHK. More people, by FAR, bury their loved ones every year due to food addictions than alcohol addictions.

There are LITERALLY hundreds of THOUSANDS of more people who die due to indulgence in food than die due to indulgence in alcohol every year. More tears at funerals, more time spent weeping and worrying in waiting rooms of hospitals and in the backs of rushing ambulances every year over FOOD abuse than ALCOHOL abuse.

Billions more dollars are spent on health care for obesity issues than alcohol issues every year. BILLIONS.

MACDONALD'S is more deadly BY FAR than Jack Daniels.


These are the FACTS.

I realize that they go against what you believe and that as a fundamentalist, like I used to be, it is EXTREMELY hard for you to admit that what you have believed for years is dead wrong- but if the cat is rubbed the wrong way....

No where in scripture does it say no amount of alcohol is acceptable by God. It is clear that catching a buzz or getting drunk is. Whether or not it is a good or bad testimony is debatable. So why go through all these gymnastics to justify it? It doesn't add up.

 

[Luke2427]

The Magnitude of the Alcohol/Drug-Related Crash Problem in Canada: Overview

MADD Canada has adopted a comprehensive approach in assessing the impairment-related (alcohol/drugs) crash problem in Canada. MADD Canada has attempted to obtain a complete picture which encompasses: alcohol and drugs; all types of vehicles and vessels; the full range of harms and losses (fatalities, injuries, property damage, and their social costs); and crashes that occur on public and private roads and property, and on the water. This broad approach is mandated by MADD Canada's mission, which is to assist all victims of impaired crashes and to reduce the total number of fatalities, injuries, and property damage crashes.



In 2009, it was estimated that 2,575 individuals were killed in motor vehicle crashes in Canada. MADD Canada estimates that at a minimum 1,074 of these fatalities were impairment-related


Given the limits on the 1,074 figure, MADD Canada estimates there are somewhere between 1,250 and 1,500 impairment-related crash deaths in Canada each year (3.4– 4.1 deaths per day).



In 2009, it was estimated that about 303,850 individuals were injured in motor vehicle crashes. MADD Canada estimates that approximately 63,338 of these individuals were injured in impairment-related crashes (roughly 174 per day). Note that this figure is limited to motor vehicle crashes only.


In 2009, it was estimated that approximately 1,673,750 motor vehicles were involved in property damage-only crashes in Canada. MADD Canada estimates that approximately 209,336 of these vehicles were damaged in impairment-related crashes (roughly 574 per day).



Using a social cost model, impairment-related driving deaths, injuries and property damage-only crashes in Canada can be estimated to have cost $20.15 billion in 2009. This model is recent, is based on extensive analysis, and was prepared for the federal Ministry of Transportation. This figure is also limited to motor vehicle crashes.



[Revised January 2012] For additional statistics, please see Estimating the Number and Cost of Impairment-Related Traffic Crashes in Canada: 1999 – 2009. Includes Provincial statistics.


http://madd.ca/madd2/en/impaired_driving/impaired_driving_statistics.html


Note, that these statistics are for Canada only. Canada has a population of about 33 million. The U.S. population is almost ten times that of Canada. So multiply these statistics by ten and you would have the approximate stats for the U.S.
http://www.madd.ca/english/research/estimating_presence.pdf

These deaths ADDED TO the deaths by alcohol related disease are STILL FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR less than the deaths related to food abuse.

Compare your stats to mine.

About 105,000 people die every year due to alcohol related diseases and accidents.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS die due to food abuse.

 

[Luke2427]

No where in scripture does it say no amount of alcohol is acceptable by God. It is clear that catching a buzz or getting drunk is. Whether or not it is a good or bad testimony is debatable. So why go through all these gymnastics to justify it? It doesn't add up.

I would never justify drunkenness (a lifestyle characterized by getting drunk).

I would never justify drunk driving. It is a great evil.

What I am doing is showing that drinking responsibly is embraced by Scripture- not condemned by it.

John and DHK tried to argue that abuse of alcohol is far worse than abuse of food.

I sought to show that their argument is totally invalid because the stats prove that food abuse in our nation is many times more deadly than alcohol abuse.

My point is that our Bible condemns ABUSE- not use. This is the Bible teaching concerning the enjoyment of food and alcohol.

That is the balanced view. It is the biblical view. And it should be a view around which all of us Christians can unite and stop this unecessary, I think- silly, infighting.