To Sin or Not

[DaChaser1]

Hi Winman,

I was using this as an example of why this debate is endless and will be until the Lord returns.

I agree that all men can hear because all men (though they be spiritually dead in sin and separated from God) are given the light of understanding without which we would all perish.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

What they do with that light I would categorize under Man's Responsibility to God.

The pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking had hardened their hearts against the light of the world and that without remedy.

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.​

HankD

Whom would be the ones that 'heard' and were saved, and raised up by Jesus?

Those whom the Father had given Him, those whom were granted 'ears to hear"

 

[glfredrick]

I pray that you did not take offense to my kidding you, Brother.

No problem... I'll let you know if you offend me. :smilewinkgrin:

Look, T.I. was a concept penned by Saint Augustus of Hippo, and centuries later Calvin(who apparently was a BIG fan of Augustine), also carried it out. T.I. is a concept derived from man's philosphies, and is not correct biblically. Man can not, and will not come to God, until God draws him/her. That doesn't mean that can't hear what God is saying in an unregenerate state. Many instances in the bible, Adam, Eve, Cain, etc, spoke with God as sinners. The rich man in hell spoke with Father Abraham, for crying out loud.
I do not use the term lightly, nor have I used it toward any persons, but rather because that is where the argument currently on the board leads and it is against the argument itself.

The first half of your argument IS the argument FOR total inability. The second half (we cannot hear God) is the strawman and is incorrect. OF COURSE we can hear God. How else would we be able to respond to His effectual call -- a required part of salvation?

Who on earth (except those who argue the strawman version of total inability) would ever argue that we cannot hear God? That is utterly ludicrous. If God speaks, draws, calls, elects, or whatever means He desires to use to bring us to Himself, WHOM CAN RESIST, which of course is the second tenet of Calvinism and a scriptural truth.

You seem to believe (falsely) that God is incapable of speaking to those who are dead, either in their sin and trespasses or in the flesh. Jesus speaking to Lazarus defied the one and Jesus calling us to a salvation is the other, and Calvinists CERTAINLY acknowledge both.

There is no argument against T.I. You can not argue against something that really does not exist.

Then what has this and 3 other threads this week been about... You cannot make something go away just because it is starting to look like your point is lost. Total Inability is real and you just admitted it above, yet you argue as if you neither understand it nor like it once you do. Strange...

 

[HankD]

You seem to presuppose that God is limited in HIS ability to speak to us, though we are indeed spiritually dead. That would negate salvation at all, right?

And is not the call of God constantly and continually for us to obey Him -- even though we cannot? I believe that was a big part of Paul's argument in Romans... We remain fully culpable for our sins though we can do nothing to halt them (double culpable in a fashion as we are both unable and yet we also do sin all the more!).

OK, but I was not presupposing anything, I sincerely wanted you to address the question - though you didn't speak about the discourse between God and Cain interpreting it in light of calvinism.

I am not being combative, I really wanted to know.

I still have a sense of disatisfaction in that it would appear that God being omni-everything entered into an exercise of futility with Cain.

On the other hand I can't accept the theory of "Open Theology".

Thanks
HankD

 

[glfredrick]

OK, but I was not presupposing anything, I sincerely wanted you to address the question - though you didn't speak about the discourse between God and Cain interpreting it in light of calvinism.

I am not being combative, I really wanted to know.

I still have a sense of disatisfaction in that it would appear that God being omni-everything entered into an exercise of futility with Cain.

On the other hand I can't accept the theory of "Open Theology".

Thanks
HankD

I'm still not sure what the big deal is with God speaking to Cain. Surely, God can do what He likes. Are you asking about God questioning Cain about the death of his brother Able? Surely God knew and the question was for Cain's benefit, allowing him occasion to repent and own up to his sin (but he didn't). God already knew. HE came to Cain to have the confrontation and told Cain that Abel's blood cried out to Him.

Are you instead asking the question as to how God might speak to Cain, who was then a sinner? He was already a sinner before he killed his brother. He was a sinner when he was born. God spoke to him, to Adam, to many others prior to the flood. Seem to be what He did back then. Not so much now, as He spoke to us once and for all by the Word, by the prophets, and by Christ.

Ever read this in Hebrews?

Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV)
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


It is interesting that Mormon theology develops the train of thought on this issue with Cain in the way you have been arguing it...

(From the first lecture in theology -- Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church)

28 But the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel, your brother? And he said, I know not: am I my brother's keeper? And the Lord said, What have you done? the voice of your brother's blood cries unto me from the ground. And now, you shall be cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother's blood, from your hand. When you till the ground, she shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond also, you shall be in the earth.

29 And Cain said unto the Lord, Satan tempted me because of my brother's flocks. And I was also angry: for his offering was accepted, and mine was not: My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of men, and from your face shall I be hid also; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, every one that finds me will slay me, because of my oath; for these things are not hid from the Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore, whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven fold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

30 The object of the foregoing quotations is to show to this class the way by which mankind were first made acquainted with the existence of a God: that it was by a manifestation of God to man, and that God continued, after man's transgression to manifest himself to him and his posterity: and notwithstanding they were separated from his immediate presence, that they could not see his face, they continued to hear his voice.

Not sure you want to identify with that group... All theology has an antithesis in a false doctrine and many who believe they have arrived at truth have in fact fallen into error, if for no other reason, that they simply have difficulty in placing their utter trust in a sovereign God who will do as HE pleases with us, to us, because of us, and in spite of us.

 

[MB]

man cannot see thir need to even be saved, as we do not see ourselves as lost siiners in need of salvation, for we are living and seeing things 'natural man:, so we think this is the normal way to think and live, as seperated and apart from God!

Can you prove that man can not see, hear or has any other inability that would keep him from responding to the gospel from scripture. If not you have nothing to stand on.
MB

 

[glfredrick]

Can you prove that man can not see, hear or has any other inability that would keep him from responding to the gospel from scripture. If not you have nothing to stand on.
MB

How so? That is precisely what the Scriptures say.

John 1:10 (KJV)
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


John 1:12-13 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What is your argument against these texts of Scripture?

 

[mandym]

How so? That is precisely what the Scriptures say.

John 1:10 (KJV)
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

And how does that speak to this issue?

John 1:12-13 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God decided that men should be saved and how. It does not speak to the level of ability that man has to come to God.

Neither one of those speak to this issue. They cannot be applied in the manner you are using them.

 

[glfredrick]

He asked for specific scripture to prove the point.

I realized that this question would come up and was in the process of editing my post as you wrote this. I posted just two verses of the many that could be posted, both OT and NT.

Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV)
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. [10] Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:13-15 (KJV)
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. [14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12 (KJV)
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 8:10 (KJV)
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Acts 28:26-27 (KJV)
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: [27] For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Hebrews 5:11 (KJV)
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.


Of course, Paul contrasts this dullness of hearing with a different view -- a view that places God's sovereignty FIRST. Once God opens the ears, we DO hear, and salvation comes by hearing! But it is God who elects who hears the effectual call or who does not. That is the point that Jesus made in the several passages listed above.

 

[HankD]

I'm still not sure what the big deal is with God speaking to Cain. Surely, God can do what He likes. Are you asking about God questioning Cain about the death of his brother Able? Surely God knew and the question was for Cain's benefit, allowing him occasion to repent and own up to his sin (but he didn't). God already knew. HE came to Cain to have the confrontation and told Cain that Abel's blood cried out to Him.

Are you instead asking the question as to how God might speak to Cain, who was then a sinner? He was already a sinner before he killed his brother. He was a sinner when he was born. God spoke to him, to Adam, to many others prior to the flood. Seem to be what He did back then. Not so much now, as He spoke to us once and for all by the Word, by the prophets, and by Christ.

Ever read this in Hebrews?

Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV)
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


It is interesting that Mormon theology develops the train of thought on this issue with Cain in the way you have been arguing it...

(From the first lecture in theology -- Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church)



Not sure you want to identify with that group... All theology has an antithesis in a false doctrine and many who believe they have arrived at truth have in fact fallen into error, if for no other reason, that they simply have difficulty in placing their utter trust in a sovereign God who will do as HE pleases with us, to us, because of us, and in spite of us.

The "Big Deal" IMO has more to do with calvinists than calvinism.

HankD

 

[mandym]

I realized that this question would come up and was in the process of editing my post as you wrote this.

And I edited my post once I saw your edit

 

[mandym]

Of course, Paul contrasts this dullness of hearing with a different view -- a view that places God's sovereignty FIRST. Once God opens the ears, we DO hear, and salvation comes by hearing! But it is God who elects who hears the effectual call or who does not. That is the point that Jesus made in the several passages listed above.

You really need to go back and read v.15 of Matt 13. It blows your view out of the water.

 

[glfredrick]

You really need to go back and read v.15 of Matt 13. It blows your view out of the water.

It cannot, for that would set Scripture against Scripture.

 

[mandym]

It cannot, for that would set Scripture against Scripture.

Not likely...

 

[Forest]

Natural men are capable of doing good works. Just look at Catholics they actually believe they can earn there Salvation by doing so. Yet they are still sinfull.
Any time someone lay's down there life for there friends they are being Christ like. If only for that small moment in time.
Once while traveling in Arkansas I had a flat and my spare was flat. I didn't know what I was going to do. When a bootlegger came along and asked me what the problem was. He asked me to give him my spare and he'd have it fixed and bring it back to me. I didn't have a choice it was near midnight and I had been sitting there since sun down. He took my spare into town and got it fixed and brought it back to me.While he was gone 5 other cars pulled up and asked me the same thing and I told them what I had done and they waited there with us until the boot legger came back. He not only got my spare fixed but he also put it on the car for me and would not take a dime for his services. I thanked Him and he went around and sold a bottle of white lightening to all those who were waiting for him to come back.
I don't know maybe he was a Christian bootlegger but if he was you'd never know it. Was his deed a good thing or was it sinfull. I certainly wouldn't condemn him for his help. The lost help others all the time and some times more than so Called Christians do. Now there could have been several who passed by that were Christians and didn't offer to help me but would that really be a surprize any of us.
The good samaritan in the Bible what makes any one think he was a Christian?
MB

Did you think that he was not a born again child of God because he was a bootlegger? How did you come to that conclusion? Look what David (a man after God's own heart) did. He committed adultry and then murdered her husband so he would never know about it. Don't be so quick to judge who and who are not children of God.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. (NASB, emphasis mine)

The unbeliever has not had the gift of faith given to him, so nothing he does can be of faith and therefore everything he does is sin, no matter how "good" it may be.

Is the unbeliever actually denied the gift of faith, or does he simply reject it?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

I am afraid you missed my point. I understand what Romans is saying and who its audience is. That does not negate the fact that anything that is not of faith is sin. A totally depraved person, and unsaved and unable to save himself person, has no faith and is a slave to sin. They cannot not sin. That is the bottom line.

Even a saved person 'cannot not sin".

John

 

[glfredrick]

I just posted this in another thread dealing with a similar issue:

The Word says that the man who says he has no sin decieves himself and if we say we have not sinned we make HIM a liar, for HE has said that "all sin."

1Jo 1:6-10 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


The writer of Hebrews took up this topic:

Hbr 10:1-4 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

So, clearly, while under the law -- or IF under the law -- one's sin yet remains to be removed, for the law cannot actually remove sin, we still sin, even if perfectly under the law.

But, Christ came and crucified sin FOR US.

Hbr 10:5-14 Consequently, when Christ [fn] came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7- Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" 8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Note WHO does the action above, and the verb tenses of that action...

CHRIST takes away the sin, and HIS effects are applied to us. HE is doing the applying, not us. And, eventually, all -- whether or not they like it -- WILL be placed under His feet on behalf of those WHO ARE BEING sanctified by HIM.

Further:

Hbr 10:15-23 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," 17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Christ has paid the penalty. The Holy Spirit (whom we dare not blaspheme by saying that He has not...) bears witness with us of this truth. Christ writes His law on our hearts and in our minds -- we do not do that ourselves as some here have suggested -- and because CHRIST has done this great work we can enter the holy place as one righteous, not of our own efforts, but solely dependent on HIS. HE sprinkled our hearts with HIS blood. HE is faithful, even when we are not.

Our job then is to remind each other of this great gospel work! We are to gather together in such a manner as to worship the ONE who did this great atoning work for us. We are to remind each other to stop trying to sin against God. And, further, if we wilfully continue in our sin we must realize that there is NO FURTHER SACRIFICE THAT CAN BE MADE.

Hbr 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

When we turn to our OWN EFFORTS we spurn the Son of God who did what we could not do. We profane the ultimate sacrifice, but there is no further "annual sacrifice" as was present in the OT to deal with our new sins against our Lord.

 

[MB]

Did you think that he was not a born again child of God because he was a bootlegger? How did you come to that conclusion? Look what David (a man after God's own heart) did. He committed adultry and then murdered her husband so he would never know about it. Don't be so quick to judge who and who are not children of God.

Well forest I did say I didn't know if he was. I never said that he was.
MB

 

[MB]

How so? That is precisely what the Scriptures say.

"This is what I said:Can you prove that man can not see, hear or has any other inability that would keep him from responding to the gospel from scripture. If not you have nothing to stand on."
And this below is what your proof is.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


John 1:12-13 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What is your argument against these texts of Scripture?

I don't argue against scripture. These scriptures you have presented as proof do not say that man has an inability. It's just not there so I can only say it looks as though you have nothing to stand on still.
MB

 

[MB]

I realized that this question would come up and was in the process of editing my post as you wrote this. I posted just two verses of the many that could be posted, both OT and NT.

Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV)
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. [10] Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:13-15 (KJV)
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. [14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:12 (KJV)
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 8:10 (KJV)
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Acts 28:26-27 (KJV)
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: [27] For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Hebrews 5:11 (KJV)
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.


Of course, Paul contrasts this dullness of hearing with a different view -- a view that places God's sovereignty FIRST. Once God opens the ears, we DO hear, and salvation comes by hearing! But it is God who elects who hears the effectual call or who does not. That is the point that Jesus made in the several passages listed above.

Every verse was said to the Jews and the one in acts is Paul quoting Christ. Most Jews were blinded so they could not understand because they rejected Christ.
Blindness;
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rejection
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
It never says this about Gentiles but say clearly that Salvation was sent to the Gentile and that they would hear it.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Oop's sorry I didn't mean to embarass you. If you would just study scripture instead of sitting in church like a bump on a log you actually might learn something...
MB