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Featured ...but what of His Holiness?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 20, 2012.

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  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Don't disagree with this verse. It's a wonderful verse in fact. But can an all-wise, holy God turn it(heart) to evil? There is no evil in God, yet you are stating that God can turn it any way He wants. Even go so far as to cause the king's heart to turn evil, and go against Him? Amazing interpretating there, Brother. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
    #41 convicted1, Feb 24, 2012
  2. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I agree with this post 100%. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #42 convicted1, Feb 24, 2012
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Willis,
    God was in control of satan as satan went to afflict Job......God said;

    Willis.....God did not make satan do it...Correct? Satan only comes to kill, steal, and destroy......God allowed him to afflict Job....but not his life.....see it. God was in total control of the evil...be hind the scenes...yet God was not the author of evil....He cannot sin !

    Then we have these kind of verses....what do you make of this Willis???

     
    #43 Iconoclast, Feb 24, 2012
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    We've discussed this at length. Sin cannot issue from a pure heart.
     
    #44 Aaron, Feb 25, 2012
  5. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Adam though was originall created w/o a sin nature, so he had a pure heart at the start!
     
    #45 DaChaser1, Feb 25, 2012
  6. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    God did NOT author Evil, but DOES use it to accomplish His predentined plan/purposes at times...

    As when Evil nations useed by him to punish his own jewish people in OT!
     
    #46 DaChaser1, Feb 25, 2012
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    That may depend on how one defines 'pure,' but clearly sin can most certainly come from a FREE person without a sin nature who is influenced by an invitation to do evil. Just as repentance can most certainly come from an enemy with a sin nature who is freed by an divine invitation to be reconciled.
     
    #47 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Might we not claim that Adam was truly free as a "very good" creation of God and as yet uninfluenced by the curse of sin that God proclaimed upon His creation, including humankind, after the fall, and also that Satan was the instigator of sin in the human heart, merely by bringing into question the sure and true word of God and causing rebellion by default (as in, once we abaondon God's word, we are already in rebellion).

    In that case, we find that Adam could indeed have a pure heart as created, but be led into an unpure relationship by choices of a free agent. Once under the curse of sin, of course, that free agency was removed. We are thereafter slaves to either Christ or to sin. Pick one. There is no other choice offered.
     
    #48 glfredrick, Feb 25, 2012
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where does the scripture say that?

    Here is the account of the fall; can you point out the part of the curse where God 'removes their free agency?'

    In fact, God said, "...man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil," which seems to indicate MORE understanding of our freedom to choose between what is good and evil, not less.

    Ok, I'll let Paul answer: "Do you not know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey-either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness."
     
    #49 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
  10. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I can point only to the whole counsel of Scripture where the choice is one -- life or death -- where we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. That is the two positions the Scriptures offer.

    Do you have another position?

    False dichotomy... Knowing is not the same as being able to choose. Further, the scriptures have a range that applies to the word(s) defined as "knowing" from head to experience. We do indeed "know" good AND evil instead of ONLY good.

    Isn't that precisely what I said above? Either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ (in that our righteousness stems FROM Christ, not from our "works" or from our own selves in some manner).

    Again, if there is some other position where we can be post fall, please share!
     
    #50 glfredrick, Feb 25, 2012
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Guy, the part of Paul's answer that your system doesn't seem to correctly address is where he writes, "if you offer yourselves," and "although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed..."

    They did the offering of themselves, not God. They did the obeying, not God. Now, granted, God enabled us to offer ourselves to Him and to obey, so that we might move out of slavery to sin into slavery to righteousness. He did that by sending his Son, the apostles, the powerful gospel appeal, ambassadors of Christ, and His Church. All of these are GRACIOUS, POWERFUL works of God and there IS NO REASON to assume that some additional irresistible application of grace by the HS (which is never expounded upon in scripture) must precede these biblical means in order for them to have effect.
     
    #51 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
  12. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Certainly, because the grace of God allowed it to be.

    Even you -- IF you still hold to an Arminian position -- would have to agree with that. We do no actions purely on our own without God's first allowing and enabling them. OR have you now moved left of true Arminian doctrine?
     
    #52 glfredrick, Feb 25, 2012
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Guy, please read my post more slowly and carefully. I think you will see that I acknowledged God gracious enabling work.
     
    #53 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    In other words, he was corrupted, and brought forth evil fruit.
     
    #54 Aaron, Feb 25, 2012
  15. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    You opened with the sugestion that I was to ignorant or stupid to notice what Paul said concerning our human ability...
     
    #55 glfredrick, Feb 25, 2012
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, its the ol' "Satan made me do it" defense, huh?
     
    #56 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    We correctly address Pauls argument. That is a total strawman argument and a touch demeaning. We've addressed it in truth many times.
     
    #57 preacher4truth, Feb 25, 2012
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I think you are reading a 'tone' or 'intent' into my words which is not present. I never called you 'stupid' or 'ignorant' and I don't believe you are either of those. I simply answered your question with scripture and when you replied saying that you agreed with that text I pointed out the parts of that quote which certainly appear to suggest we are responsible to "give ourselves" and to "obey" once enabled by God's gracious means. You then replied suggesting that I denied the need for those gracious means and I asked you to please re-read my post. I'm not sure why you are this defensive but maybe we need to just end this here and allow things to cool down. :)

    Blessings.
     
    #58 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Not even close.

    One's natural appetites can be corrupted through no fault of his own. Iron doesn't rust itself.
     
    #59 Aaron, Feb 25, 2012
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, its not Adam's fault that he sinned? It sure sounds like you are arguing that Adam has as much control over whether or not he sinned as a piece of iron left outdoors has over whether or not it rusts? Is that your argument?
     
    #60 Skandelon, Feb 25, 2012
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