...but what of His Holiness?

[convicted1]

Willis,



does this verse mean what it says???

Don't disagree with this verse. It's a wonderful verse in fact. But can an all-wise, holy God turn it(heart) to evil? There is no evil in God, yet you are stating that God can turn it any way He wants. Even go so far as to cause the king's heart to turn evil, and go against Him? Amazing interpretating there, Brother.

 

[convicted1]

My friend. Great point! but I do not believe that God did not intervene, in fact God had His hand in it the whole time. If Hitler had no restraint, there there would not have been one Jew left alive in Germany that were in his clutches.

I agree with this post 100%. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

So then God controls sinning to?

God then, indeed, IS the Author of sin.......

Willis,
God was in control of satan as satan went to afflict Job......God said;

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Willis.....God did not make satan do it...Correct? Satan only comes to kill, steal, and destroy......God allowed him to afflict Job....but not his life.....see it. God was in total control of the evil...be hind the scenes...yet God was not the author of evil....He cannot sin !

Then we have these kind of verses....what do you make of this Willis???

1.1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. 1 Samuel 16:13-15 (in Context) 1 Samuel 16 (Whole Chapter)
2.1 Samuel 16:16
Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. 1 Samuel 16:15-17 (in Context) 1 Samuel 16 (Whole Chapter)
3.1 Samuel 19:9
And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

 

[Aaron]

So did Adam have real free will to make his moral decision than?

We've discussed this at length. Sin cannot issue from a pure heart.

 

[DaChaser1]

We've discussed this at length. Sin cannot issue from a pure heart.

Adam though was originall created w/o a sin nature, so he had a pure heart at the start!

 

[DaChaser1]

Willis,
God was in control of satan as satan went to afflict Job......God said;



Willis.....God did not make satan do it...Correct? Satan only comes to kill, steal, and destroy......God allowed him to afflict Job....but not his life.....see it. God was in total control of the evil...be hind the scenes...yet God was not the author of evil....He cannot sin !

Then we have these kind of verses....what do you make of this Willis???

God did NOT author Evil, but DOES use it to accomplish His predentined plan/purposes at times...

As when Evil nations useed by him to punish his own jewish people in OT!

 

[Skandelon]

We've discussed this at length. Sin cannot issue from a pure heart.

That may depend on how one defines 'pure,' but clearly sin can most certainly come from a FREE person without a sin nature who is influenced by an invitation to do evil. Just as repentance can most certainly come from an enemy with a sin nature who is freed by an divine invitation to be reconciled.

 

[glfredrick]

Might we not claim that Adam was truly free as a "very good" creation of God and as yet uninfluenced by the curse of sin that God proclaimed upon His creation, including humankind, after the fall, and also that Satan was the instigator of sin in the human heart, merely by bringing into question the sure and true word of God and causing rebellion by default (as in, once we abaondon God's word, we are already in rebellion).

In that case, we find that Adam could indeed have a pure heart as created, but be led into an unpure relationship by choices of a free agent. Once under the curse of sin, of course, that free agency was removed. We are thereafter slaves to either Christ or to sin. Pick one. There is no other choice offered.

 

[Skandelon]

Once under the curse of sin, of course, that free agency was removed.

Where does the scripture say that?

Here is the account of the fall; can you point out the part of the curse where God 'removes their free agency?'

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed more than any livestock and more than any wild animal. You will move on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life. 15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel. 16 He said to the woman: I will intensify your labor pains; you will bear children in anguish. Your desire will be for your husband, yet he will dominate you. 17 And He said to Adam, "Because you listened to your wife's voice and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'Do not eat from it': The ground is cursed because of you. You will eat from it by means of painful labor all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow until you return to the ground, since you were taken from it. For you are dust, and you will return to dust." 20 Adam named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all the living. 21 The Lord God made clothing out of skins for Adam and his wife, and He clothed them. 22 The Lord God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.

In fact, God said, "...man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil," which seems to indicate MORE understanding of our freedom to choose between what is good and evil, not less.

We are thereafter slaves to either Christ or to sin. Pick one. There is no other choice offered.

Ok, I'll let Paul answer: "Do you not know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey-either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness."

 

[glfredrick]

Where does the scripture say that?

Here is the account of the fall; can you point out the part of the curse where God 'removes their free agency?'

I can point only to the whole counsel of Scripture where the choice is one -- life or death -- where we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. That is the two positions the Scriptures offer.

Do you have another position?

In fact, God said, "...man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil," which seems to indicate MORE understanding of our freedom to choose between what is good and evil, not less.

False dichotomy... Knowing is not the same as being able to choose. Further, the scriptures have a range that applies to the word(s) defined as "knowing" from head to experience. We do indeed "know" good AND evil instead of ONLY good.

Ok, I'll let Paul answer: "Do you not know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey-either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness."

Isn't that precisely what I said above? Either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ (in that our righteousness stems FROM Christ, not from our "works" or from our own selves in some manner).

Again, if there is some other position where we can be post fall, please share!

 

[Skandelon]

Guy, the part of Paul's answer that your system doesn't seem to correctly address is where he writes, "if you offer yourselves," and "although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed..."

They did the offering of themselves, not God. They did the obeying, not God. Now, granted, God enabled us to offer ourselves to Him and to obey, so that we might move out of slavery to sin into slavery to righteousness. He did that by sending his Son, the apostles, the powerful gospel appeal, ambassadors of Christ, and His Church. All of these are GRACIOUS, POWERFUL works of God and there IS NO REASON to assume that some additional irresistible application of grace by the HS (which is never expounded upon in scripture) must precede these biblical means in order for them to have effect.

 

[glfredrick]

Guy, the part of Paul's answer that your system doesn't seem to correctly address is where he writes, "if you offer yourselves," and "although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed..."

They did the offering of themselves, not God. They did the obeying, not God. Now, granted, God enabled us to offer ourselves to Him and to obey, so that we might move out of slavery to sin into slavery to righteousness. He did that by sending his Son, the apostles, the powerful gospel appeal, ambassadors of Christ, and His Church. All of these are GRACIOUS, POWERFUL works of God and there IS NO REASON to assume that some additional irresistible application of grace by the HS (which is never expounded upon in scripture) must precede these biblical means in order for them to have effect.

Certainly, because the grace of God allowed it to be.

Even you -- IF you still hold to an Arminian position -- would have to agree with that. We do no actions purely on our own without God's first allowing and enabling them. OR have you now moved left of true Arminian doctrine?

 

[Skandelon]

Guy, please read my post more slowly and carefully. I think you will see that I acknowledged God gracious enabling work.

 

[Aaron]

In that case, we find that Adam could indeed have a pure heart as created, but be led into an unpure relationship by choices of a free agent.

In other words, he was corrupted, and brought forth evil fruit.

 

[glfredrick]

Guy, please read my post more slowly and carefully. I think you will see that I acknowledged God gracious enabling work.

You opened with the sugestion that I was to ignorant or stupid to notice what Paul said concerning our human ability...

 

[Skandelon]

In other words, he was corrupted, and brought forth evil fruit.

So, its the ol' "Satan made me do it" defense, huh?

 

[preacher4truth]

We correctly address Pauls argument. That is a total strawman argument and a touch demeaning. We've addressed it in truth many times.

 

[Skandelon]

You opened with the sugestion that I was to ignorant or stupid to notice what Paul said concerning our human ability...

I think you are reading a 'tone' or 'intent' into my words which is not present. I never called you 'stupid' or 'ignorant' and I don't believe you are either of those. I simply answered your question with scripture and when you replied saying that you agreed with that text I pointed out the parts of that quote which certainly appear to suggest we are responsible to "give ourselves" and to "obey" once enabled by God's gracious means. You then replied suggesting that I denied the need for those gracious means and I asked you to please re-read my post. I'm not sure why you are this defensive but maybe we need to just end this here and allow things to cool down.

Blessings.

 

[Aaron]

So, its the ol' "Satan made me do it" defense, huh?

Not even close.

One's natural appetites can be corrupted through no fault of his own. Iron doesn't rust itself.

 

[Skandelon]

Not even close.

One's natural appetites can be corrupted through no fault of his own. Iron doesn't rust itself.

So, its not Adam's fault that he sinned? It sure sounds like you are arguing that Adam has as much control over whether or not he sinned as a piece of iron left outdoors has over whether or not it rusts? Is that your argument?