Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
No DHK, you had it right the first time.
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What is Sin?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
But the fact is that the Lord judges us, and he does so every day. We sin every day. I gave you Scripture some time ago, which you ignored. What do you have to say about it?
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If that is your testimony, so be it. Do not think that everyone else has the same testimony.
HP: Not ignoring you, just been very busy.
HP: I do not see the connection you are making with this passage. It certainly does not indicate we sin every day, but rather admonishes us to bring into captivity every thought. That is simply resisting temptation by casting down evil imaginations etc., and choosing to focus on that which is good a right and pleasing to the Lord. I would think that is precisely what every believer should be doing. Praying without ceasing to the best of our abilities as we can as we go about our daily work, exercising our will in obedience to Christ. That is certainly something that can be done on a daily basis with the Lord's help. If we fail it is not because we could not do right, but that we simply chose not to do right. If daily choosing to disobey God is ones regular habit, I would say one certainly needs to seek a deeper work of the Holy Spirit in ones life.
Sin should not be the normal for our daily walk as believers. God is more than willing to help us live pleasing to Him. We need to purify our hearts by faith, trusting that God will deliver us from sin as we fix our heart and minds upon Him. We need to allow our faith reach out to God for the help we need to live pleasing to Him. He has promised to give us the desires of our heart if we seek Him with our whole heart.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Do you come short of God's glory - sinless perfection - every day? Or do you maintain sinless perfection? You do believe the kind of righteousness possessed by God is without sin don't you?
Progressive sanctification is just that - progressive - never acheiving finished sanctification or glorification.
Now, our goal every day is nothing less than sinless perfection as no other goal is worthy to strive after. However, it is that inward drive that motivates our spiritual progress and maturity.
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God is ever ready to help us in our Chrisitan walk to achieve the potential in our present state of growth. However, our present state of growth is not sinless perfection. Read Romans 12:3 and 12:7 and you will see we are all given a "measure" of faith and grace and according to our present measure so is our present potential and God is always pleased for us to walk in the Spirit to acheive our present measure of spiritual growth.
New born infants are at a potential level far different than more mature Christians. Each has a present "level" in their growth and they can achieve that present "level." For a higher "level" more grace is needed that usually comes with more experiences. However, the "level" of sinless perfection is called glorification and no one but Christ attained that "level" in his earthly journey.
Your present "level" is your present spiritual growth and that is the present potential you have at any given point this side of glorification. You are not as good or mature as Jesus and never will be in this present life. Thus you are a sinner every day OR to say it another way every day you COME SHORT of sinless perfection or the righteousness of God.
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And this is your testimony?? That you bring every single one of your thoughts and imaginations subject to Jesus Christ. You don't let a single thought go astray. They are brought to captivity--every single one. You never have an evil thought, not one.
The only person I know that has had that testimony is Christ.
But if you say.........
It is what it says it is. It does not need to be allegorized in order for it have a watered down interpretation. The language is simple, clear and straight forward. Do you need another translation?
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 For the arms of our warfare [are] not fleshly, but powerful according to God to [the] overthrow of strongholds;
5 overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God, and leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ; (Darby)
Good in theory, but in practice you fail--if you are honest with yourself. The Bible says: "Let God be true, but every man a liar." (Rom.3:4)
Sinless perfection??
Or because we are human and have a sin nature. We will not reach perfection until Christ comes or we go to heaven.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Sin is normal for the sinner.
I freely admit that I am a sinner, a sinner saved by grace.
That is obvious. trusting that God will deliver us from sin. That is why we turn daily to the promise of God in 1John 1:9 that He will forgive us our sins.
Did he promise to make you perfect in this life? Have you attained sinless perfection?
savedbymercy
New Member
Sin is Transgression of the law ! 1 Jn 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
In this respect, Those who Christ died for cannot sin ! For they are not under Law but Under Grace ! Every sin they could ever commit against God's law has been taken care of . God's Justice has been totally satisfied and His law on their behalf magnified and honored because of Christ's Work !
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
In this respect, Those who Christ died for cannot sin ! For they are not under Law but Under Grace ! Every sin they could ever commit against God's law has been taken care of . God's Justice has been totally satisfied and His law on their behalf magnified and honored because of Christ's Work !
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
We have a clear problem. DHK is insistent that sin must remain, yea a believer must keep on sinning to be a believer. Anyone that ceases from sin or even thinks they have ceased from sin is a liar according to him. His position is that for grace to abound sin must continue to abound.
Scripture refutes both of these positions.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Scripture refutes both of these positions.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Your position denies progressive sanctification and progressive sanctification denies your position.
The Bible speaks of Christians at various levels of maturity (babes, young men, fathers) and just as water cannot rise above its own level neither can you rise above the level you have attained:
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Every child of God is given a measure of faith and grace whereas Christ was FULL of grace. Sinlessness is being FULL of grace WITHOUT measure of faith - sorry but you have not arrived and neither has any other living man but Christ.
To "keep his commandments" is to keep them according to the measure of grace and faith you currently possess and no more potential than the current level of your spiritual growth (babes, young men, fathers) but NEVER sinless perfection in this life and sin is the condition of COMING SHORT of sinless perfection. Therefore, since you cannot obtain sinless perfection in this life you are at all times COMING SHORT of sinless perfection and thus a sinner at all times in various degrees just as you are righteous at various degrees as a child of God.
However, in contrast with the lost, they are incapable of any kind of righteousness before God (Lk. 18:19; Rom. 3:10-20; 8:7-8) and therefore in his sight they are the ungodly, the unrighteous whereas all who are born of God are the righteous - because they have been imputed righteousness through justification and are legally declared righteous "IN CHRIST" and because they have been imparted trule holiness and righteousness by regeneration of the spirit of man and because they are doing righteousness according to the measure of faith/grace at their current level of spiritual maturity (babe, young man, father).
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are a delusional individual - 1 Jn. 1:8-10
You don't differ between things that should be distinguished - The believer's legal position versus his actual person; The believer in God's Purpose versus in time and space.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Savedbymercy, count your blessings. Notice carefully how DW fails to denote you as a heretic as he does others in clear violation of the rules of this forum. No question as to why remains in my mind.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Savedbymercy, count your blessings. Notice carefully how DW fails to denote you as a heretic as he does others in clear violation of the rules of this forum. No question as to why remains in my mind.
Yes, because neither of you have the objectivity to deal rationally with the Biblical evidence. If you could you would but you can't so the only other option is to change the subject to me rather than the evidence I placed before both of you. Deal with it if you can. You can't and so you are going to make it personal. I called you both heretics because you show no objectivity as you simply IGNORE the Biblical data. However, prove me wrong here it is again:
Your position denies progressive sanctification and progressive sanctification denies your position.
The Bible speaks of Christians at various levels of maturity (babes, young men, fathers) and just as water cannot rise above its own level neither can you rise above the level you have attained:
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Every child of God is given a measure of faith and grace whereas Christ was FULL of grace. Sinlessness is being FULL of grace WITHOUT measure of faith - sorry but you have not arrived and neither has any other living man but Christ.
To "keep his commandments" is to keep them according to the measure of grace and faith you currently possess and no more potential than the current level of your spiritual growth (babes, young men, fathers) but NEVER sinless perfection in this life and sin is the condition of COMING SHORT of sinless perfection. Therefore, since you cannot obtain sinless perfection in this life you are at all times COMING SHORT of sinless perfection and thus a sinner at all times in various degrees just as you are righteous at various degrees as a child of God.
However, in contrast with the lost, they are incapable of any kind of righteousness before God (Lk. 18:19; Rom. 3:10-20; 8:7-8) and therefore in his sight they are the ungodly, the unrighteous whereas all who are born of God are the righteous - because they have been imputed righteousness through justification and are legally declared righteous "IN CHRIST" and because they have been imparted trule holiness and righteousness by regeneration of the spirit of man and because they are doing righteousness according to the measure of faith/grace at their current level of spiritual maturity (babe, young man, father).
Can you respond rationally and reasonably???? I doubt it!
we STILL have within us that abiding sin principle'flesh" and that is why we are still tempted to do and actually do still commit sin!
Good news is that saints CAN freely chose to abide in Christ and in the person/power of the HS and experience freedom from sin fro a time...
BUT
We can ONLY become more and more like jesus by yielding and corming ourselves to his will, and even than, we will NOT experience final delieverance and full freedom for sin and its influrnce until time we are glorified by god and make fully "like Christ!"
Dr. Walter
New Member
Not from its presence but only from its dominance and only to the degree corresponding with our spiritual maturity and measure of grace that we have attained.
the Good News in this as that we have been delivered by God Out from the reign of sin over us, that we can freely now chose to rely upon his empowering thu the HS now indwelling us, that we can have victory over the sins thatseek to beset us!
have to also realise though that NONE attain a state of sinless perfection this side of heaven!
Instead of giving a foolish answer to my post, and not even quoting what I believe, go back and answer my post.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1810994&postcount=45
savedbymercy
New Member
dw
I never said a believer or someone Christ died for does not sin.
I never said a believer or someone Christ died for does not sin.
Sin IS the transgression of the law and to say that "IN THIS RESPECT" those who Christ died for cannot sin is delusional!
If you were talking about their POSITION "in Christ" then "IN THIS RESPECT" they cannot sin but YOU WERE NOT! You were talking about "IN THIS RESPECT" as described in 1 John 3:4.
Sin IN ANY RESPECT is transgression of the law and the only way a believer does not transgress the law is "IN CHRIST" positionally but certainly not "in Christ" practically in respect to your OWN PERSON.
what have you said ?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: A Calvinisitic philosophical position unsupported by Scripture or reason.
Scriptures state that there in NOW therefore NO condemnation to those who are in Christ!
We cannot sin in the sense while found by God to be in Christ as regards to the Lord laying a charge against us due tothat act, but we can and do have fellowship broken, as we have taken ourselves away from the Lord in sense of fellowship....