Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist you are contradicting yourself so you can be right. Please don't do that you are better than that.

Your defintion of works calls God a liar! I would much rather contradict myself than contradict God!!!!

If violating the law of God cannot be called "evil works" and keeping the Law of God cannot be called "good works" then there can be no future judgement day according to Romans 2:6-12 for the self-righteous hypocrits because such are only judged "according to his WORKS"!


As far as contradicting myself that is hilarious! It is hilarious because you and Moriah are interpreting my words by YOUR VIEW of justification rather than MY VIEW! My view has them already judged and justified by Christ's life and death on the cross and they do not come into any future judgement FOR SALVATION but only for rewards and they works will be judged for rewards. So don't read into my view YOUR VIEW and that is precisely what you are doing because that is the only way I would contradict myself if I held YOUR VIEW of the law and justification.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Stop yelling, calm down buddy. You need to get a clear definition of what works and faith are. Faith without works is dead faith. Works without faith are dead works. You can mow a strangers lawn and it would take no faith, a dead work. If you pray for the stranger to get healed and God heals, well that is a work with faith, giving the glory to Him. Has nothing to do with salvation, but is a command Jesus gave. The unsaved will be judged according to what they have done in life, good or bad, and one law broken is bad.

 

[plain_n_simple]

As far as contradicting myself that is hilarious!

Not really, stop doing it.

 

[The Biblicist]

You simply do not get it do you? You are calling God a liar by your definitions regardless of what I said! If your definition of "work" is true then there is no future judgment day and there is no God because his standard of judgement on that day is "according to his WORKS" and if violating the law is not "works" then God cannot judge anyone for lying, stealing, cursing, coveting, killing, adultery, etc.!

What is God going to judge people for on judgment day Moriah???? If "works" have nothing to do with keeping or violating the ten commandments then who can be judged for idolatry, cursing, stealing, killing, coveting, lying, etc. on Judgement day????????????

Paul says that the self-righteous hypocrit will be judged "according to his works" whether they be GOOD or EVIL - Rom. 2:6

 

[Moriah]

If violating the law of God cannot be called "evil works" and keeping the Law of God cannot be called "good works" then there can be no future judgement day according to Romans 2:6-12 for the self-righteous hypocrits because such are only judged "according to his WORKS"!

You are the one who says we do not have to do good works or abstain from evil to be saved. You call those who obey Jesus "self-righteous hypocrites." Jesus says those who obey me are the ones who love me. John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

My view has them already judged and justified by Christ's life and death on the cross and they do not come into any future judgement FOR SALVATION but only for rewards and they works will be judged for rewards.

If you keep putting down obedience to Christ, and keep saying we do not have to do right and abstain from evil, should you not fear hearing these words...
Luke 13:27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

 

[Moriah]

As far as contradicting myself that is hilarious!

Not really, stop doing it.

Wow, Biblicist is totally contradicting himself.

 

[The Biblicist]

Stop yelling, calm down buddy. You need to get a clear definition of what works and faith are. Faith without works is dead faith. Works without faith are dead works. You can mow a strangers lawn and it would take no faith, a dead work. If you pray for the stranger to get healed and God heals, well that is a work with faith, giving the glory to Him. Has nothing to do with salvation, but is a command Jesus gave. The unsaved will be judged according to what they have done in life, good or bad, and one law broken is bad.

Now you are attempting to change the subject by recognizing that my view of justification is different than yours!!!!!! So much for contradicting myself:laugh:

You are running from your definition of "works" and I would run too if I held such a definition that calls God a liar!!!!

Your definition of works is really what proves your definition of justification is false and my view is correct.

Your definition of works denies that violating the ten commandments is evil "WORKS" or that obeying them is good "WORKS"! However, on judgement day God judges the self-righteous hypocrit "according to his WORKS" - Rom. 2:6. If that is true then your definition of works is false OR ELSE God cannot judge anyone on judgement day as liars, adulterers, killers, stealers, etc. because he only judges "good" or "bad" WORKS and your definition denies these things can be called works!

If you admitted they can be called works then the "works of the law" in Romans 3:27-28 which is equal to the "deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28) includes the ten commandments in addition to any and all other commandments of God or the Law in general, whether Mosaic, written on conscience, administered in governments (Rom. 13) and thus violating or keeping them will on judgment day be regarded as either GOOD WORKS or EVIL WORKS.

Thus if we are not justfied by the works/deeds of law but justified by faith "without works" but based upon the works/deeds of Jesus Christ imputed to us by faith then your whole system is false and condemned by Scriptures.

We are not justified by works but by faith but we do good works because we are justified, have eternal life and are going to heaven NOT IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED AND GET ETERNAL LIFE AND HEAVEN!!!!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are the one who says we do not have to do good works or abstain from evil to be saved.

Correct!

You call those who obey Jesus "self-righteous hypocrites."

False! I call those who are obeying Jesus IN ORDER TO GO TO HEAVEN as self-righteous hypocrits. Saved people love to obey Christ BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO HEAVEN AND ARE JUSTIFIED WITHOUT WORKS - they (justified) work out of love not out of the coveteous motive to get to heaven and "fear" of going to hell if they don't do good enough!

If you keep putting down obedience to Christ, and keep saying we do not have to do right and abstain from evil, should you not fear hearing these words...
Luke 13:27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

False! It is the motive I am repudiating. You do it IN ORDER TO obtain entrance into heaven whereas I keep the commandments out of love BECAUSE I AM JUSTIFIED and BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and BECAUSE I AM GOING TO HEAVEN BASED ON WHAT CHRIST FINISHED BY HIS OWN LIFE AND DEATH.

The very ones he says that too are those who came claiming him as "Lord, Lord" PLUS "have we not done many WONDERFUL WORKS" as their combination basis to enter heaven! That is the combination you are depending on to be received into heaven!!!!

Your defintion of "works" still denies that God can judge anyone for anything on judgement day as He judges according to "his WORKS" and if violating the ten commandments is not evil "works" then they are scott free and the judgment is a joke OR ELSE you are wrong!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Read slowly, I said our good works which are by faith, have nothing to do with salvation.
I will enter because I believe and confess Him. His blood covers all my sin and they no longer exist. My good works are Him working through me to do greater works.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Following the Spirit I will not break the Law, though I pay no attention to it. Walk by faith, faith with good works.

 

[The Biblicist]

Correct!




False! I call those who are obeying Jesus IN ORDER TO GO TO HEAVEN as self-righteous hypocrits. Saved people love to obey Christ BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO HEAVEN AND ARE JUSTIFIED WITHOUT WORKS - they (justified) work out of love not out of the coveteous motive to get to heaven and "fear" of going to hell if they don't do good enough!







False! It is the motive I am repudiating. You do it IN ORDER TO obtain entrance into heaven whereas I keep the commandments out of love BECAUSE I AM JUSTIFIED and BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and BECAUSE I AM GOING TO HEAVEN BASED ON WHAT CHRIST FINISHED BY HIS OWN LIFE AND DEATH.

The very ones he says that too are those who came claiming him as "Lord, Lord" PLUS "have we not done many WONDERFUL WORKS" as their combination basis to enter heaven! That is the combination you are depending on to be received into heaven!!!!

Your defintion of "works" still denies that God can judge anyone for anything on judgement day as He judges according to "his WORKS" and if violating the ten commandments is not evil "works" then they are scott free and the judgment is a joke OR ELSE you are wrong!

The difference between the biblical view and your view is very simple. It is a difference of MOTIVE, cause and consequence!

Your motive is COVETUOUSNESS and FEAR because you make your own quality of life the basis for ultimate justification and obtaining heaven. Hence, you make your OWN good works the cause and heaven the consequence.

The Biblical cause is CHRIST ALONE and His work received by faith that obtains both justification and heaven and the consequences LOVE and GOOD WORKS (Eph. 2:10) BECAUSE we are justified and BECAUSE we are going to heaven and because the Holy Spirit is working in and through us to provide good works (Philip. 2:13).

The difference between your gospel and the Biblical Gospel is the difference between YOUR WORKS and CHRIST'S WORKS. You deny His works are sufficient to save apart from your works.

True justification by faith PRODUCES good works through us but is not INCLUSIVE of our good works produced through or by us.

The Biblical motive is LOVE. The finished work of Christ is the CAUSE of heaven and good works the consquences (Eph. 2:10).

The Biblical view is that we are justified by faith in Christ WITHOUT WORKS but "UNTO" good works which we do out of the motive of love because we are saved and we are going to heaven.

Your view is that we are justified by faith plus good works IN ORDER TO be saved and go to heaven

 

[Moriah]

I said the works of the law no longer save us, i.e. circumcision, the observance of special days and seasons, eating and drinking, with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath day. Those things are the works that no longer save us.

God nailed those things to the cross. God did not nail faithfulness to the cross, or honesty. We still have to do those things; those things are not works of the law. The works of the law are works. Can you imagine having to do external cleansing for worshiping God? Can you imagine having to get an animal for a sin offering when you sinned?

A saved person does not see being faithful to his wife as a work. A saved person does not see not stealing as a work of the law. A saved person is no longer a slave to sin. A saved person sees those things as very undesirable.

It is bad behavior to commit adultery. It is evil behavior to kill. It is good to offer your brother clothes when he comes to you and has none. It is good to offer your brother food. Those are good deeds. Those are good behaviors. Those are not works of the law. Again, works of the law are sin offerings, and external regulations for earthly worship. See Hebrews 9:1-10.

 

[The Biblicist]

Read slowly, I said our good works which are by faith, have nothing to do with salvation.
I will enter because I believe and confess Him. His blood covers all my sin and they no longer exist. My good works are Him working through me to do greater works.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Following the Spirit I will not break the Law, though I pay no attention to it. Walk by faith, faith with good works.

Why defend Moriah's definition of works then? If his definition of works is true then God cannot judge anyone of adultery, lying, stealing, etc., because Moriah denies that either obeying or disobeying the ten commandments can be called good or evil "WORKS"???

You defended his definition and took up his cause!

You do not follow the Spirit 24/7 and anyone who claims that is deceived and a liar (1 Jn. 1:8-10)

 

[The Biblicist]

A saved person does not see being faithful to his wife as a work. A saved person does not see not stealing as a work of the law. A saved person is no longer a slave to sin. A saved person sees those things as very undesirable.

It is bad behavior to commit adultery. It is evil behavior to kill. Those are not works of the law. Again, works of the law are sin offerings, and external regulations for earthly worship. See Hebrews 9:1-10.

"deeds" of the Law and "works" of the law are one and the same as Romans 2:27-28 prove!

Second, the ten commandments are called "the law" - Romans 7:7 and violating or keeping them must be recognized as "the works" and "the deeds" of the law or else God cannot judge anyone for violating or keeping them as judgment day is all about judging "WORKS"! - Rom. 2:6

So either your definition of "works" and "deeds" is wrong or God is a liar!

"let God be true and every man a liar"

 

[Moriah]

The difference between the biblical view and your view is very simple. It is a difference of MOTIVE, cause and consequence!

Your motive is COVETUOUSNESS and FEAR because you make your own quality of life the basis for ultimate justification and obtaining heaven. Hence, you make your OWN good works the cause and heaven the consequence.

The Biblical cause is CHRIST ALONE and His work received by faith that obtains both justification and heaven and the consequences LOVE and GOOD WORKS (Eph. 2:10) BECAUSE we are justified and BECAUSE we are going to heaven and because the Holy Spirit is working in and through us to provide good works (Philip. 2:13).

The difference between your gospel and the Biblical Gospel is the difference between YOUR WORKS and CHRIST'S WORKS. You deny His works are sufficient to save apart from your works.

True justification by faith PRODUCES good works through us but is not INCLUSIVE of our good works produced through or by us.

The Biblical motive is LOVE. The finished work of Christ is the CAUSE of heaven and good works the consquences (Eph. 2:10).

The Biblical view is that we are justified by faith in Christ WITHOUT WORKS but "UNTO" good works which we do out of the motive of love because we are saved and we are going to heaven.

Your view is that we are justified by faith plus good works IN ORDER TO be saved and go to heaven

Jesus says, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23

Do you not know what that means? That means we will receive the Holy Spirit when we love God by obeying God.

Do you not understand that it is THE WORD OF GOD who says,” We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." Acts 5:32
Do you not understand what that means?
Do you not see what is confusing about what you preach? Do you not see that you preach what is against God’s Word?
You say we do not have to do anything, not even believe! You say it is a work to abstain from evil, and therefore, we do not have to abstain from evil to be saved!
You do not see that you are teaching confusion and things that are contradictory to the Word of God.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Your anger is strange. You have been reading alot but it shows you practice very little, you feel the need to be right, a very strong need. I hope you are not under the Law and trying to follow it. Maybe you could apply things in life instead of just talk. God bless you sir.

 

[savedbymercy]

All Things were Created for Him, The Heir of All Things !
Col 1:15-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Heb 1:2-3

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

By whom He [ God the Father ] made the Worlds, The Heir of All Things..

The world was made by Him [ The Heir] and for Him, that is to manifest His redemptive purpose..

The world and all therein, was created for a Divine redemptive purpose, a purpose which entailed the involvement of sin..

The Son [ Jesus Christ, the last Adam] was the Heir of all things and not Adam.

Jesus Christ was the Heir Son that was given Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

This Son was the appointed Heir before being given Jn 3:16

The Son, The Lord Jesus Christ was God's only begotten Son, Heir of all things [ 2 Cor 8:9 ] before He was Mary's baby..

And as Gods only begotten Son, before all worlds, He was appointed Heir of all things, and it was as Heir He was appointed to die, for those who were joint heirs with Him..

If one believes aright that Jesus Christ was God's Son before the incarnation, then they would believe that Jesus Christ was His Heir [ Rom 8:17] before the Incarnation, even before creation and the creation of Adam..

In quoting a passage it is clearly seen that Jesus Christ was the sent Heir Matt 21:37-38

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. Notice, My Son, not Mary's Son..

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

Mk 12:6-7


6Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'


Lk 20:13-14

13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

You see, its a terrible misunderstanding in man made religion, that Adam was Gods intended heir of the world in the beginning when the world was made, but He was not, The Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of God was, and Adam and all things else were Created for Him and His Eternal Redemptive Purpose..

Eph 3:8-10

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
__________________

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus says, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23

Do you not know what that means? That means we will receive the Holy Spirit when we love God by obeying God.

Yes, I do know but you sure don't as you pay no attention to the context.

First, look at the context and identify who He is talking to. He is not talking to lost people but believers in him who have been following and obeying him for nearly three and half years. He is not talking about how to be saved but the benefits of believers who love him and keep his commandments HERE and NOW. He is talking about a special FELLOWSHIP not with the Holy Spirit but with "MY FATHER" and Himself "we".

If he had been talking to lost people or about lost people, or how to be saved or how to get to heaven you might at least had some valid point but he is not.

Do you not understand that it is THE WORD OF GOD who says,” We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." Acts 5:32
Do you not understand what that means?

There is a huge difference between saying obey me IN ORDER TO receive the Holy Spirit and saying the Holy Spirit bears witness of these things in those who are obeying him. Good works (Eph. 2:10) are the evidences of having been created in Christ Jesus:

"For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works...."

You are attempting to reverse this order by saying that "good works" are UNTO being created in Christ Jesus.

Hence, again the difference between your gospel and the gospel of Christ is that you reverse cause ("his workmanship") and consequences (your "good works").

Finally, LOVE is the only right motive for doing "good works" or keeping His commandments. However, you make salvation the motive for keeping His commandments and doing "good works." That reversal is the difference between true and false justification and the true and false gospel.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your anger is strange. You have been reading alot but it shows you practice very little, you feel the need to be right, a very strong need. I hope you are not under the Law and trying to follow it. Maybe you could apply things in life instead of just talk. God bless you sir.

Paul's anger was directed against the very gospel you teach as he said "let them be accursed" (Gal. 1:8-9).

First, you are teaching Law keeping for salvation when you teach commandment keeping in order to be justified. Law is commandment keeping of ANY KIND!

Go learn what Romans 3:27 means! The term "law" is used to describe both "works" and "faith" by Paul in this verse and simply means "principle."

You are either in one of two camps. You are either in the camp that believes a person is ultimately jusitifed by the PRINCIPLE OF works through commandment keeping or by the PRINCIPLE of faith through Christ's obedience alone and they are contrasting alternatives!

Both you and HP and Moriah are explicity teaching a salvation by the "LAW" of works = commandment keeping and thus rejecting Christ, perverting the meaning of "works of the law" to something only applies to Jews when the context of Romans 3:9-28 demonstrates it refers to God's STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS in its most comprehensive meaning inclusive of GENTILES as well as Jews. The Gentiles are "under sin" equally as the Jews (Rom. 3:9). The Gentiles are equally charaterized by sin as the Jews (Rom. 3:10-18). The Gentiles are equally "under law" as the Jews (Rom. 3:19-20) because the "Law" Paul is referring to is revealed comprehensively in the Mosaic Law through commandment keeping which entails all lessor forms of revealed Law (conscience, cultural, governmental laws).

The most comprehensive detailed revelation of the righteousness of God prior to the manifestation of the incarnated Son of God was the Mosaic Law. If the Jew could not be justified by the Mosaic Law, then "no flesh" could be justified by any inferior revelation of God's law, whether it is revealed in conscience, in cultures, in governments. Only Jesus Christ comprehended true obedience to the Law of God and therefore only justification is by faith in His active and passive obedience to the Law of God not by yours!

The "works of the law" is YOUR ATTEMPT to satisfy the righteous demands of God by the LIFE YOU LIVE rather than by the LIFE Christ lived.

 

[DHK]

Abraham’s faith and actions were working together. Faith not accompanied by action is dead. That is the word of God.
Works of the law is what God nailed to the cross.
Colossians 2:14 were having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

The Ten Commandments were never nailed to the cross.
The works mentioned in Eph.2:8,9 were never nailed to the cross.
Salvation is by grace through faith not of works.
These works condemn a person. They have nothing to do with passage in Colossians 2:14-16.

 

[Moriah]

The Ten Commandments were never nailed to the cross.
The works mentioned in Eph.2:8,9 were never nailed to the cross.
Salvation is by grace through faith not of works.
These works condemn a person. They have nothing to do with passage in Colossians 2:14-16.

What do you mean these works condemn a person?
I did not say the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross; however, when someone says we do not have to do anything when we are saved, that DOES NOT mean we can do evil! God did NOT nail being honest to the cross, or faithfulness. You and Biblicist are the ones who need to understand doing right is not nailed to the cross.
As for the Ten Commandments, there are rules in the Ten Commandments for the Sabbath Day, which we are no longer judged. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. No one can judge us by a Sabbath Day.