Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[DHK]

How do you figure Gentiles were to keep a law that was not for them? Show me with scripture from the Holy Bible.

1. The Scripture is in Ex.31
Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
--The Sabbath was given as a sign for the Jews. They were to keep it.
It was never a command given to NT Gentile Christians
Of course the SDA's disagree with me. So do others. They are mostly cults. Are you also disagreeing? Do you think that as a Gentile believer you are bound to the law to keep all the laws pertaining to the Sabbath??

ANSWER THE QUESTION! WAS HONORING YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER NAILED TO THE CROSS?

Your question is non sequitor.
My children honor and respect me as their father. I take it you have no children. Or perhaps they don't respect you. There must be a reason that you have responded this way.

You easily prove you do not know what you are saying, when you suggest I do not understand salvation.

I know what I am saying and there is a reason why I suggest that you do not understand salvation. That reason is: works have nothing to do with salvation, or even keeping salvation. If they did then salvation wouldn't be of God. The blood of Christ would not be sufficient to cover or make atonement for our sins. That being the case, his death would have been in vain. Yes, clearly you don't understand salvation, and the implications you suggest by saying that works are a part of it.

It does NOT mean we can do evil! It does not mean we do not have to do right!

I simply quoted Scripture:
For by grace are you saved through faith.
It is not of works.
And those few words of Scripture (without any commentary of my own) produced the above reaction?? Amazing! I never said that Eph.2:8,9 means we can do evil. Where did you get that idea?

Being circumcised has nothing to do with being saved and remaining saved. OBEYING JESUS DOES HAVE TO DO WITH BEING SAVED AND REMAINING SAVED.

This is what I had said:
"Works has nothing to do with being saved or remaining saved."
--I never said anything about circumcision. I don't go around circumcising people. I don't consider that a "work" that I would do. Is that a work you would do? Then why do you mention it? It is a red herring. So let me say it again:
Works have nothing to do with being saved or remaining saved.
--Do you understand what that means?
Being the good Samaritan, loving your neighbor as yourself, going to church, doing "good" in general, etc. will not save you. Neither will all those good works keep you saved. Works has nothing to do with being saved or remaining saved--absolutely nothing!!

If you came to Jesus because you are a sinner in need of a Savior, then you MUST have known your sins were wrong and that you HAVE TO STOP SINNING.

I came to Jesus because I recognized my sinfulness. Upon recognizing that wretched condition I knew I needed a Savior. The only one that could save me was Jesus Christ. He saved me from the penalty of my sin. But I am still a sinner to this day; only a sinner saved by grace. There is not a man on this earth (including you) that can honestly say before man and God, "I have stopped sinning." If they say they can say that then they are sinning by lying and by their own pride. Sinless perfection is not attainable on this earth. It will only come after we die or when Christ comes, whichever happens first. It is unattainable on this earth. Only Christ was perfect.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It is appalling to me that you put yourself on the same level of Christ, the Son of God, sinless, meeting the condition of the perfect sacrifice for mankind. You are deceived. If you are sinless, why do you need a Savior?

You said you do not do good in order to maintain your salvation. Then what do you think it means to work out your salvation with trembling and fear?

The verse speaks of sanctification. It is a much misunderstood verse.

You twist the truth so that you can keep your denominations beliefs. If you love the Truth, then stop going against what Jesus says!

I don't belong to a denomination. I study the Word, and obey it. Salvation is not of works. It is by grace through faith, not of works.

Even if you did not do what? You think you can do anything and not fall into judgment.

Rom.8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." There is none--not any. He has forgiven all my sins: the past, present and future. He has taken them and hid them behind his back; he remembers them no more; they are buried in the depths of the deepest sea; as far as the east is from the west so far has he removed them. I will never be judged for those sins again, as far as salvation is concerned.

God does not accept good works? You are speaking insanity. For you do not think God wants you to do good.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--That is what God thinks of your good works before salvation. They are filthy rags, useless, good enough to be thrown away. He doesn't want them. Good works have nothing to do with salvation. No one is ever accepted on the basis of good works.

YOU JUST SAID GOD DOES NOT ACCEPT GOOD WORKS! SO WHY ARE YOU DOING GOOD THEN? You do not see that you will keep what you were taught by your religion’s leaders and not come to the Truth after being shown.

I do good because Christ wants me to, because I am saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--These scriptures tell you how to be saved: by grace, through faith, not of works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
--After salvation the Lord says we are created unto good works, and are ordained to walk in them. My motivation however, is my love for Christ.

You said God does not accept good works. Why would you do something that God does not accept?

God doesn't accept the good works of an unsaved person; I am saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I do good because Christ wants me to, because I am saved.

DHK, when you say sin is the normal for a believer, are good works the abnormal? You cannot have both the 'normal' now can you? Either you will love the one or hate the other, but you cannot be said to be both at the same time and in the same sense.....so, which is the normal for the believer? Good works or sin?

 

[DHK]

DHK, when you say sin is the normal for a believer, are good works the abnormal? You cannot have both the 'normal' now can you? Either you will love the one or hate the other, but you cannot be said to be both at the same time and in the same sense.....so, which is the normal for the believer? Good works or sin?

Are you sinless HP? Yes or no?
If you are not sinless, then is it normal for you to sin? Yes or no? No explanations please, just one word--yes or no?

Obviously it is normal for you to sin, for we are all sinners.
It is also normal for the believer to love the Lord Jesus Christ, and do good out of that love for Him, and display the fruit of the Spirit as a result of it.
Both are normal. You will never be sinless until you reach heaven. If you say that you are sinless then you have already sinned.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Are you sinless HP? Yes or no?

HP: DHK, all you are doing is trying to find fault, therefore I will not answer you as to my life before God. It would not matter if I were to worst sinner in the world, it does not change the Word of God. We are to preach the Word. I will tell you one thing, I do not consider, nor would it be my testimony, that sin is the normal in my life. That is your testimony, but not mine.

No, it is not obvious that sin is the normal for my life. It is a small thing to be judged by you, because you are not my judge.

DHK: for we are all sinners.

HP: Speak for yourself. You can call yourself a sinner if that is what you desire, but I desire to call myself a Christian and by faith am seeking the Lord to help me daily walk a life pleasing to Him.

DHK: It is also normal for the believer to love the Lord Jesus Christ, and do good out of that love for Him, and display the fruit of the Spirit as a result of it.

HP: When you serve sin you are under a different master than Christ. Scripture is clear that we cannot serve God and the flesh and have a certain hope of our eternal home. "You cannot serve God and mammon."

DHK: Both are normal.

HP: The Scriptures teach just the opposite. Scripture teaches that sin should not be the normal, and should not reign in our mortal bodies as believers. Sin is not and should not be the normal for a believer.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Since you like to quote I John, let me ask you why John said he wrote this book? He said he wrote it that 'YE SIN NOT." You are misusing Scripture when you go directly against the author of this book and suggest it is to establish that all keep right on sinning. The purpose of this book is to see to it that we 'sin not' and is not to establish or support your position that we all keep right on sinning as the normal manner we live our lives as believers.

 

[DHK]

Since you like to quote I John, let me ask you why John said he wrote this book? He said he wrote it that 'YE SIN NOT." You are misusing Scripture when you go directly against the author of this book and suggest it is to establish that all keep right on sinning. The purpose of this book is to see to it that we 'sin not' and is not to establish or support your position that we all keep right on sinning as the normal manner we live our lives as believers.

I won't respond to your personal attacks.
The theme of the book is NOT that "you sin not." The theme of the book is to give the believer a set of assurances on how he can know for sure that he is saved. It seems as if you fail in the first chapter, where he talks of fellowship with God. We have fellowship with God when we confess our sin (1John 1:9), and he forgives us our sin and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. That promise is predicated on the fact that we do sin; that we have sin to confess.

Thus John previously emphasizes in two different verses the fact of sin:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The one that denies that he has sin in his life must come to these conclusions:

1. He deceives himself.
2. The truth is not in him.
3. He makes Christ a liar.
4. God's word is not in him.

As the above statements are true of the one that denies that he has sin in his life, and has nothing to confess to God, it is impossible for him to have a walk with God, or to have fellowship with God. He is treading on dangerous ground. Pride stands in his way.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

 

[DHK]

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That is one verse. That is not the theme of the book.
There is also this verse, a very important verse; yet it also is not the theme of the book.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[Moriah]

1. The Scripture is in Ex.31
Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
--The Sabbath was given as a sign for the Jews. They were to keep it.
It was never a command given to NT Gentile Christians
Of course the SDA's disagree with me. So do others. They are mostly cults. Are you also disagreeing? Do you think that as a Gentile believer you are bound to the law to keep all the laws pertaining to the Sabbath??

I am the one telling you that we do NOT have to do the works of the law. Observing the Sabbath is a work of the law.

Your question is non sequitor.

YOU SAID WE DO NOT HAVE TO STOP SINNING TO BE SAVED. Therefore, my question is legitimate. YOU SAY GOD NAILED OBEYING THE LAW TO THE CROSS. So, answer the question! Did God nail honoring your mother and father to the cross? God did not nail doing right to the cross. God nailed the works of the law to the cross, the works such as circumcision, and observing special days. Answer the question; are you saying God nailed honoring your mother and father to the cross?

My children honor and respect me as their father. I take it you have no children. Or perhaps they don't respect you. There must be a reason that you have responded this way.

You are wrong again and prove to be a personal attacker.

I know what I am saying and there is a reason why I suggest that you do not understand salvation. That reason is: works have nothing to do with salvation, or even keeping salvation. If they did then salvation wouldn't be of God. The blood of Christ would not be sufficient to cover or make atonement for our sins. That being the case, his death would have been in vain. Yes, clearly you don't understand salvation, and the implications you suggest by saying that works are a part of it.

I simply quoted Scripture:
For by grace are you saved through faith.
It is not of works.

If God nailed the whole law to the cross, then THAT MEANS WE NEVER HAVE TO DO THOSE THINGS. That means we do NOT have to honor our mother and father.
Do you EVER HAVE to be circumcised to be saved? NO, BECAUSE IT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS. Do you ever have to observe special days to be saved? NO, BECAUSE IT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS.
If God nailed being faithful to your wife to the cross, then you could commit adultery.

 

[DHK]

I am the one telling you that we do NOT have to do the works of the law. Observing the Sabbath is a work of the law.

That is true.
So is adultery. I would presume that you have committed it a time or two but would never admit to it.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

YOU SAID WE DO NOT HAVE TO STOP SINNING TO BE SAVED. Therefore, my question is legitimate. YOU SAY GOD NAILED OBEYING THE LAW TO THE CROSS. So, answer the question! Did God nail honoring your mother and father to the cross?

1. My father or mother were never nailed to the cross.
2. My respect for them was never nailed to the cross.
Does that answer your question?

And, furthermore, quote me where I said that.
You are supposed to be sinless aren't you?
You misrepresented me, and therefore lied. Where did I say: "God nailed obeying law to the cross." Please quote me. And quote the context. Was it in the context of the Ten Commandments. If it wasn't in the context of the Ten Commandments, then you have just been deceitful which is another sin.

God did not nail doing right to the cross. God nailed the works of the law to the cross, the works such as circumcision, and observing special days. Answer the question; are you saying God nailed honoring your mother and father to the cross?

I never said anything such thing.
You have a twisted form of logic. The Ten Commandments save one are still in effect today.
Where does God give you permission to murder? to commit adultery? to lie? to covet? to commit idolatry? Where does he give you permission under grace to do these things. These commands are still in effect today. They were never "nailed to the cross" as you so falsely assume.

You are wrong again and prove to be a personal attacker.

This is not a personal attack, rather it is the result of a personal attack against me:

I take it you have no children. Or perhaps they don't respect you. There must be a reason that you have responded this way.

So why would you attack me about family matters and respond the way you do. I am asking you not attacking you. There must be a reason, as I said.

If God nailed the whole law to the cross, then THAT MEANS WE NEVER HAVE TO DO THOSE THINGS.

This is your premise, not my premise. You start with a false premise and you will end up with a false conclusion.

That means we do NOT have to honor our mother and father.

That is your false conclusion arising from your false premise.

Do you EVER HAVE to be circumcised to be saved? NO, BECAUSE IT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS. Do you ever have to observe special days to be saved? NO, BECAUSE IT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS.

Right, because it was the ceremonial law that was nailed to the cross. Those are the laws that we don't need to keep.

If God nailed being faithful to your wife to the cross, then you could commit adultery.

You are absolutely right. Read Romans 7. Once my wife dies I am free to marry again. But it wouldn't be adultery. Keep that in mind before slander my name. But God did not nail my wife to a cross did he? She is sitting here beside me. If I read what you post here she would burst out laughing.

 

[Moriah]

That is true.
So is adultery. I would presume that you have committed it a time or two but would never admit to it.

Now I know even more about you, though you still do not understand how I could.
I have had sins to confess, but adultery is not one of them.

1. My father or mother were never nailed to the cross.
2. My respect for them was never nailed to the cross.
Does that answer your question?

Then why do you keep telling everyone that God nailed those things to the cross?

And, furthermore, quote me where I said that.
You are supposed to be sinless aren't you?

Why do you not quote where I said that? Do you know what a hypocrite is?

You misrepresented me, and therefore lied. Where did I say: "God nailed obeying law to the cross." Please quote me. And quote the context. Was it in the context of the Ten Commandments. If it wasn't in the context of the Ten Commandments, then you have just been deceitful which is another sin.

I am not playing your games with you. You said ALL the Old Testament Law was nailed to the cross and we COULD SIN AND NOT LOSE OUR SALVATION.

Where does God give you permission to murder? to commit adultery? to lie? to covet? to commit idolatry? Where does he give you permission under grace to do these things. These commands are still in effect today. They were never "nailed to the cross" as you so falsely assume.

You SAID THE WHOLE LAW was nailed to the cross. YOU SAID all those things were WORKS, and that we did not have to do them to be saved, nor to remain saved! You said those things.

 

[DHK]

I am not playing your games with you. You said ALL the Old Testament Law was nailed to the cross and we COULD SIN AND NOT LOSE OUR SALVATION.

You SAID THE WHOLE LAW was nailed to the cross. YOU SAID all those things were WORKS, and that we did not have to do them to be saved, nor to remain saved! You said those things.

Then quote me. Direct me to the URL. Don't make up things.

 

[The Biblicist]

Now I know even more about you, though you still do not understand how I could.
I have had sins to confess, but adultery is not one of them.

Oh yes you have! James says if we break but one point we have broken every point and he is specifically lists adultery as one point (James 2:10-11):


James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law

You have not only committed adultery in your heart but you have committed murder in your heart and you have violated every single one of the Ten commandments and any man who denies it is deceived and is calling God a liar ( 1 Jn. 1:8-10).

You simply do not understand what constitutes sin. To say that sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn. 4:6) does not explain HOW it can be transgressed.

1. It can be transgressed by omission, failing to do what you ought to do and say - "come short" - Rom. 3:23

2. It can be transgressed by acting contrary to convictions (Rom 14)

3. It can be transgressed by ignorance

4. It can be transgressed by the wrong motive behind all that you do - 1 Cor. 10:31.

You are a sinner but blind to your sins as that is the very worst kind of sinner - even worse than an actual adulterer who at least admits they have sinned.

 

[Moriah]

Oh yes you have! James says if we break but one point we have broken every point and he is specifically lists adultery as one point (James 2:10-11):

I am not under the Old Covenant. I am under the New Covenant.

You have not only committed adultery in your heart but you have committed murder in your heart and you have violated every single one of the Ten commandments and any man who denies it is deceived and is calling God a liar ( 1 Jn. 1:8-10).

You are a sinner but blind to your sins as that is the very worst kind of sinner - even worse than an actual adulterer who at least admits they have sinned.

Two accusers in the group.

 

[DHK]

Two accusers in the group.

No, just one:
The Word of God itself.

 

[Moriah]

Oh yes you have! James says if we break but one point we have broken every point and he is specifically lists adultery as one point (James 2:10-11):

You have not only committed adultery in your heart but you have committed murder in your heart and you have violated every single one of the Ten commandments and any man who denies it is deceived and is calling God a liar ( 1 Jn. 1:8-10).

You are a sinner but blind to your sins as that is the very worst kind of sinner - even worse than an actual adulterer who at least admits they have sinned.

You are a false accuser. You do not understand the scriptures.

For he who said, "Do no commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.


Can you see that Biblicist? IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY. Yet you say the scriptures say, "You have committed adultery."

You are confused.

 

[Moriah]

No, just one:
The Word of God itself.

Who are you calling the accuser?

 

[DHK]

Who are you calling the accuser?

You deny sin in your life.
The word of God accuses you.

Adultery:
Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Murder:
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The Bible has much to say about sin, even very specific ones.
We all have sinned. The Bible is the one that accuses us of sin.

 

[Moriah]

You deny sin in your life.
The word of God accuses you.

Adultery:
Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Murder:
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The Bible has much to say about sin, even very specific ones.
We all have sinned. The Bible is the one that accuses us of sin.

You just cannot stop yourself from accusing.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are a false accuser. You do not understand the scriptures.

For he who said, "Do no commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.


Can you see that Biblicist? IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY. Yet you say the scriptures say, "You have committed adultery."

You are confused.

James is proving that whatever point of the law you violate you violate every point by violating any single point. If you claim you do not violate adultery but kill then you have violated every point including adultery. Read verse 10 as it plainly tells you that when you violate one point you violate every point!

And you have violated every point and you do it every single day you breath!

 

[Moriah]

James is proving that whatever point of the law you violate you violate every point by violating any single point. If you claim you do not violate adultery but kill then you have violated every point including adultery. Read verse 10 as it plainly tells you that when you violate one point you violate every point!

And you have violated every point and you do it every single day you breath!

You accused me of adultery. You do not understand the scriptures.

For he who said, "Do no commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.


Can you see that Biblicist? IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY. Yet you say the scriptures say, "You have committed adultery."

Stop coming on, accusing me of things, and saying the Bible is doing it, things the Bible does not say, and things I have not done.