Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[The Biblicist]

You go against God's Word. You do not just go against a few scriptures; you go against the deep things of God.

If there is one thing clearly apparent it is this - you don't even understand the shallow things of God much less the deep things of God.

What we are teaching is what even spiritual infants know and understand due to a geniune salvation experience, as these things are the elementary a,b,c's of the Scripture.

 

[DHK]

Here is just one in 1John DHK seems to have failed to take into serious consideration.

Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Are you a sinner HP? Don't want to answer that question do you?
Concerning 1John 2, you can't take babystep #2 before you take babystep #1. First you have to pass chapter one.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Why did John write this verse? The topic here is fellowship with God, and that comes only with confession of sin. This is written to believers. It is speaking of believers confessing their sins to God, and God would forgive them and restore their fellowship.

But that is predicated on the fact that they have sins to confess. Right?
So you do have sins to confess, don't you? Otherwise the verse makes no sense. And if you don't have sins to confess then you make Christ a liar.

Thus John writes:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So, before we discuss chapter two we must deal with chapter one first.

 

[Moriah]

You think these commandments simply deal with the EXTERNAL act of adultery or murder?????????? Apparently you do or you could not respond the way you do with a straight face!

You don't understand that God view adulter and murder already committed in the heart even if you are prevented from carrying them out Externally:

Read and learn:

Mt. 5:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


Mt. 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

Mt. 5:27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

God's moral law reveals God's righteousness and so to violate it at any point (James 2:10-11) makes you UNGODLY or not like God and thus UNRIGHTEOUS because it only takes one point to be called a "sinner" and God can never be called a "sinner" because he never commit even one sin.

No matter how many times you accuse someone of adultery, that does not make them an adulterer, and it does not make them a liar.

 

[DHK]

I have read those scriptures. John and James do not say I commit adultery, and they do not call me a liar.

James 2:10-11 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Now if thou commit no murder, yet if thou bear false witness, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Moriah, you have borne false witness on this board when you have misrepresented what I have said at various times. You have become a transgressor of the law and just as guilty as a murderer and an adulterer. This is the teaching of this verse.

 

[Moriah]

If there is one thing clearly apparent it is this - you don't even understand the shallow things of God much less the deep things of God.

What we are teaching is what even spiritual infants know and understand due to a geniune salvation experience, as these things are the elementary a,b,c's of the Scripture.

You do not even believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, even though that is what scripture says.

 

[Moriah]

James 2:10-11 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Now if thou commit no murder, yet if thou bear false witness, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Moriah, you have borne false witness on this board when you have misrepresented what I have said at various times. You have become a transgressor of the law and just as guilty as a murderer and an adulterer. This is the teaching of this verse.

Are you trying to clean up your major flaw in your previous statement? You previously accused me of committing adultery, when I denied it you accused me of lying.

 

[Moriah]

DHK and Biblicist,

In the Old Testament, when someone murdered another person, was that person put to death for murder, or for adultery? Lol

 

[DHK]

Are you trying to clean up your major flaw in your previous statement? You previously accused me of committing adultery, when I denied it you accused me of lying.

I don't have to accuse you of lying. The Bible does. It says that all have lied. If the Bible states that all have lied, that being the case, then you are just as guilty as breaking the rest of the law--murder, adultery, etc. That is the teaching of James 2:10,11.

 

[Moriah]

I don't have to accuse you of lying. The Bible does. It says that all have lied. If the Bible states that all have lied, that being the case, then you are just as guilty as breaking the rest of the law--murder, adultery, etc. That is the teaching of James 2:10,11.

No, you said I was guilty of adultery. When I told you I have not committed adultery, you then called me a liar.

 

[DHK]

DHK and Biblicist,

In the Old Testament, when someone murdered another person, was that person put to death for murder, or for adultery? Lol

Sin is a transgression of the law (1John 3:4). Sin is sin. It is just as bad to tell a lie as it is to murder. In both you transgress the law. Both are serious enough to condemn a person to hell. Both are serious enough to condemn a person as a sinner and require the person to need a Savior. Sin is sin. Christ died for sin. Different sins have different consequences. But in God's sight they are the same in that they are all transgressions of the law.

 

[Moriah]

Sin is a transgression of the law (1John 3:4). Sin is sin. It is just as bad to tell a lie as it is to murder. In both you transgress the law. Both are serious enough to condemn a person to hell. Both are serious enough to condemn a person as a sinner and require the person to need a Savior. Sin is sin. Christ died for sin. Different sins have different consequences. But in God's sight they are the same in that they are all transgressions of the law.

You falsely accused me of adultery. When I told you I did not commit adultery, you then called me a liar.

 

[Moriah]

DHK and Biblicist,

In the Old Testament, when someone murdered another person, was that person put to death for murder, or for adultery? Lol

Did you and Biblicist miss this question?

 

[The Biblicist]

Did you and Biblicist miss this question?

You have totally misunderstood and distorted what we said and what we meant!

You are talking about the EXTERNAL act of adultery and murder but WE ARE NOT!!!

We are talking about the INTERNAL act of adultery and murder that has already occurred IN THE HEART regardless if it is acted out EXTERNALLY as God considers the law broken when it occurs IN THE HEART!

INTERNAL adultery is merely a LOOK OF LUST! INTERNAL killing is merely unjust anger whether or not it is manifested externally by actually killing another person.

The law is SPIRITUAL because it deals with the HEART attitudes as well as the EXTERNAL actions. The EXTERNAL actions are merely the expressions of what has already occurred in your heart. God looks upon YOUR HEART.

So you are telling us that you have never in your heart looked upon a woman with desire? YOu are telling us that you never have had unjustified anger toward another person? You are telling us that you never coveted anything?

Sin of anger and sin of adultery is equally sin and therefore any sin IN YOUR HEART violates the whole law of God as it takes but ONE SIN to make you a sinner just as it takes one lie to make you a liar and one murder to make you a murderer, so just ONE SIN violates the entire law of God and makes you COME SHORT of the glory of God and thus proves you are not sinless.

 

[Moriah]

You have totally misunderstood and distorted what we said and what we meant!

You are talking about the EXTERNAL act of adultery and murder but WE ARE NOT!!!

We are talking about the INTERNAL act of adultery and murder that has already occurred IN THE HEART regardless if it is acted out EXTERNALLY as God considers the law broken when it occurs IN THE HEART!

INTERNAL adultery is merely a LOOK OF LUST! INTERNAL killing is merely unjust anger whether or not it is manifested externally by actually killing another person.

The law is SPIRITUAL because it deals with the HEART attitudes as well as the EXTERNAL actions. The EXTERNAL actions are merely the expressions of what has already occurred in your heart. God looks upon YOUR HEART.

So you are telling us that you have never in your heart looked upon a woman with desire? YOu are telling us that you never have had unjustified anger toward another person? You are telling us that you never coveted anything?

Sin of anger and sin of adultery is equally sin and therefore any sin IN YOUR HEART violates the whole law of God as it takes but ONE SIN to make you a sinner just as it takes one lie to make you a liar and one murder to make you a murderer, so just ONE SIN violates the entire law of God and makes you COME SHORT of the glory of God and thus proves you are not sinless.

NO! You said according to the Old Testament Law, that I was guilty of adultery even if I did not commit adultery. Stop trying to clean it up by lying.

As for you now accusing me of lusting in my heart, you still are falsely accusing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: You have totally misunderstood and distorted what we said and what we meant!

You are talking about the EXTERNAL act of adultery and murder but WE ARE NOT!!!

HP: Are you suggesting that the penalty for either is not the same? Also, it seems to me you make no distinction between a temptation to lust and lust itself. Explain to us the process that one has to go through for a temptation to lust to turn to lust, if you see there is a process.

 

[The Biblicist]

NO! You said according to the Old Testament Law, that I was guilty of adultery even if I did not commit adultery. Stop trying to clean it up by lying.

As for you now accusing me of lusting in my heart, you still are falsely accusing.

Before you accuse anyone of lying you need to get your facts straight!

1. You are the one that identified it as "OLD" testament law when in fact I quoted only NEW Testament scriptures - James 2:10-11; Mt. 5; Mt. 15 - So quit perverting what I said.

2. These texts deal WITH THE HEART and demonstrate the sin of adultery and killing are ATTITUDES before they are ACTIONS

3. When you Violate ONE you violate ALL and that is exactly what James is teaching in James 2:10-11.

4. John describes your type in 1 John 1:8-10 as deceived and making God a liar

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: Are you suggesting that the penalty for either is not the same?

The penalty is the same (Rom. 3:23 "death") because sin is sin whether internal or external. However, the degree of reward is not the same as the action involves others besides yourself and complicates the sin.

Also, it seems to me you make no distinction between a temptation to lust and lust itself. Explain to us the process that one has to go through for a temptation to lust to turn to lust, if you see there is a process.

Your question is trying to lead us to a completely different issue. Jesus makes it very clear there is a distinction between ATTITUDE and ACTION and that violation of the ten commandments occurs with the ATTITUDE in your heart rather than with the ACTION. He explicitly states the sin occurred IN THE HEART and so how can there be any discussion whether that is true or false??? Regardless if you agree or disagree about HOW it occurs in the heart does not change the fact that Christ explicitly said it did occur in the heart!

He says the LOOK OF LUST/DESIRE upon a woman IN YOUR HEART has violated the law of adultery even though the ACTION may never occur. Look at the tenth commandment as that is a sin cheifly of the heart - covetuousness - that is only manifested by actually persuing.

If you are a "Gay" then I can understand why you may not have committed it toward a woman but the same sin would be toward a man as adultery incoporates all sexual perversion. However, if you are telling me that as a healthy man you do not struggle with this issue especially with how women are dressed today and even on commercials on TV then you are simply a liar.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: However, the degree of reward is not the same as the action involves others besides yourself and complicates the sin.

HP: Establish or prove your position from Scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Your question is trying to lead us to a completely different issue. Jesus makes it very clear there is a distinction between ATTITUDE and ACTION and that violation of the ten commandments occurs with the ATTITUDE in your heart rather than with the ACTION.

HP: Explain yourself. Give us the Scripture you are referring to here.

Biblicist: He explicitly states the sin occurred IN THE HEART and so how can there be any discussion whether that is true or false??? Regardless if you agree or disagree about HOW it occurs in the heart does not change the fact that Christ explicitly said it did occur in the heart!

HP: Indeed sin does occur in the heart, but everything in the heart is not sin. Temptation is revealed to the heart of man, but we do not have to yield to every impulse upon the heart. It would appear to this listener, that some fail to distinguish between sin and temptation to sin. How does what you are saying line up with the clear progression of sin in James 1?

Biblicist: He says the LOOK OF LUST/DESIRE upon a woman IN YOUR HEART has violated the law of adultery even though the ACTION may never occur.

HP: Not necessarily true. Lust can be in the form of mere temptation, and it can also be in the form of formed intent to yield to that temptation. Lust as mere temptation is not sin. Lust becomes sin when we yield our will in the formation of intents in developing means by which to carry out such intents.

Lust can be no more than strong desire. Desire can be nothing more than a response of the sensibilities in the direction of a God given desire. It is when we form intents to satisfy such a desire in a manner not in keeping with obedience to God's commands that sin is conceived. Conclusion: Strong desire may or not be sin depending on the object of the desire and the means by which we choose to carry out the longings of such desire, whether in accordance to God's commandments or not.

For instance: I might have a strong God instilled desire to eat. That is not sin in and of itself, yet it may develop into sin as I choose to yield to it, form intents to satisfy it in a manner not in keeping with God's command of refraining from gluttony.

Biblicist: Look at the tenth commandment as that is a sin cheifly of the heart - covetuousness - that is only manifested by actually persuing.

HP: One can have many desires (many merely impulses of the sensibilites) that we can either yield by forming intents to act in accordance to them in a manner not in keeping with God's commands, which would be sin, or we could resist them and refuse to will intents in carrying them out in unlawful manners. Again, temptation to sin and sinning are not one in the same. Show us how you distinguish temptation from sin itself. Show us how you distiguish between God instilled sensibilites, or even God-given sensibilities that have been warped due to physical depravity, and sin.

 

[Moriah]

Before you accuse anyone of lying you need to get your facts straight!

You are lying when you call me a liar. YOU are the one who tells people they are liars. You are the one who needs to get straight.

1. You are the one that identified it as "OLD" testament law when in fact I quoted only NEW Testament scriptures - James 2:10-11; Mt. 5; Mt. 15 - So quit perverting what I said.

Stop with your brute and slanderous remarks. You sure like the word pervert.
How is this for you, I did not commit adultery in the Old Testament, and I did not commit adultery in the New Testament.

2. These texts deal WITH THE HEART and demonstrate the sin of adultery and killing are ATTITUDES before they are ACTIONS

You are out of touch if you really think that I could speak of not sinning and not even know what Jesus says about it. In any case, you still falsely accuse me.

3. When you Violate ONE you violate ALL and that is exactly what James is teaching in James 2:10-11.
That is not what you said. You said that I committed adultery. I told you I have not. You said I am a liar.

4. John describes your type in 1 John 1:8-10 as deceived and making God a liar

I never said I did not sin. You are an accuser. You are a false accuser, and a slanderer.

James 2:11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
Did you read that, IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY? The Bible does not say everyone has committed adultery. The Bible does not say everyone who has murdered someone is guilty of adultery. You just cannot separate what your false teachers taught you from the truth.