The soul is NOT the Body - Mt. 10:28

[The Biblicist]

One primary problem with Christian cults is that they define human nature on the same level as animal life. They see no constituent distinctions between animals and humans in regard to their constituent nature. They interpret "soul" to either be equal to "life" or "body" and they interpret "spirit" to be equal to "air" or "breath." They interpret the "image" of God to either be something visible or a higher degree of mental function due to the physical make up of the mind.

Hence, they interpret the death of humans to be no different than the death of brute beasts and thus nothing that continues past PHYSICAL death, thus no continuance beyond physical death.

In keeping with this distortion of human nature they define "life" and "death" as existence or cessation of being rather than the Biblical definition of two different states of existence (separation or union).

Jesus flatly denies that the body of man is synonymous with the "soul" of man in Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If the "body" was the "soul" then Christ would never have stated that man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul as to kill one would be to kill the other if they were one and the same! Obviously they are not the same.

Furthermore, the Greek term [apolummi] translated "destroy" is used two other times in this same chapter first in verse 6 where it is translated "lost" and in verse 39 where it is translated "lose" and "loseth":

Mt. 10:6 But go rather to the lost [apolummi] sheep of the house of Israel.

The term never means "anihilated" or "cessation of being" or "unconsciousness" as none of these ideas will fit with the text:

"But go rather to the anihilated sheep of the house of Israel"??

"But go rather to the cessation of being sheep of the house of Israel"????

"But go rather to the unconscious sheep of the house of Israel"????

The Greek term "apolummi" is composed of two words [apo and luo] that etymological means "to loose away" or to "separate." However, its meaning by usage is to "render useless" as it is used of wine skins that have busted and thus rendered useless. The wine skins have split. They have not been anhilated or ceased to exist or become unconscious. The unconverted sheep of Israel are rendered useless forthe glory of God in their unregenerated state.

When man kills the body he is trying to kill the soul as the body merely acts as the vehicle of expression for the soul. It is the soul that (mind, heart will) or personality that makes the body odious to man and therefore he attempts to kill the soul but only accomplishes killing the body. On the other hand, God places both the body and soul in gehenna eternally where their expression is not only rendered useless and harmless but is eternally separated from God.

Mt. 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose [apollumi] it: and he that loseth [apollumi] his life for my sake shall find it.

How is it to find "his life shall anihilate it"??

How is it to find "his life shall cause it to cease being"???

How is it to find "his life shall make it unconscious"???

How is it to anihilate his life is to find it?

How is it to cause it to cease shall find it?

How is it to become unconscious shall find it?

What Jesus is teaching is that if you want to save your life for the glory of God you must render it useless for self glory because if you render it useless for self glory and live it for Christ you will find it.

Matthew 10:28 denies that soul is the body.

Matthew 10:28 denies that the soul ceases to exist or becomes unconscious or anihilated when the body dies

Matthew 10:28 denies that the soul and body is anhilated, or ceases to be, or becomes unconscious in Gehenna.

 

[Moriah]

When man kills the body he is trying to kill the soul as the body merely acts as the vehicle of expression for the soul. It is the soul that (mind, heart will) or personality that makes the body odious to man and therefore he attempts to kill the soul but only accomplishes killing the body. On the other hand, God places both the body and soul in gehenna eternally where their expression is not only rendered useless and harmless but is eternally separated from God.

You have said the same thing I have been saying in the other thread. Except now, go ahead and try to explain what the spirit of a man is. Now remember, you cannot give the soul and the spirit the same description, because you said they are not the same.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have said the same thing I have been saying in the other thread.

The only thing man can kill is the body with the spirit in it because the body without the spirit is ALREADY DEAD because James say the body is dead without the spirit.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead...."

Therefore, in order for the body to be something man can kill, it must have the spirit abiding in it or else it is already dead!

However, if as you say, the soul EQUALS a body with spirit, then man could kill the "soul" by killing the body with the spirit in it! If the body has no spirit in it, James says it is already dead. Man cannot kill what is already dead. Hence, what man kills is something alive and for it to be alive it must be a body with spirit.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead...."


Thus by your definition man can kill the soul as that is the only thing man can kill since the only living body is a body with spirit. However, by Christ's definition man cannot kill the soul, therefore, the body plus the spirit does not equal the "soul" by Christ's definition.

You are reading into this text what Jesus does not say. He does not say man can kill the body whether it is with or without the spirit! He does not say that the body with the spirit is a soul! He does not say that! YOU are the one reading this into the text.

Except now, go ahead and try to explain what the spirit of a man is. Now remember, you cannot give the soul and the spirit the same description, because you said they are not the same.

I have already explained the difference between the spirit and soul at least two times already! Can't you read? Go back to the other thread and you will find at least two different posts explaining the difference.

 

[Moriah]

The only thing man can kill is the body with the spirit in it because the body without the spirit is ALREADY DEAD because James say the body is dead without the spirit. Therefore, in order for the body to be something man can kill, it must have the spirit abiding in it or else it is already dead!

Do you really believe what you said there is a legitimate defense against what I said?..lol…

However, if as you say, the soul EQUALS a body with spirit, then man could kill the "soul" by killing the body with the spirit in it!

You are claiming that a man can kill another man’s spirit! That is outrageous. Did you not admit in another thread that you believe the spirit lives on after the death of the physical body?

If the body has no spirit in it, James says it is already dead. Man cannot kill what is already dead. Hence, what man kills is something alive and for it to be alive it must be a body with spirit.

No matter how many times you repeat it, it does not make it sound any better as a defense. I have already explained to you that the body without the spirit is dead. I have already given you scripture.

Thus by your definition man can kill the soul as that is the only thing man can kill since the only living body is a body with spirit. However, by Christ's definition man cannot kill the soul, therefore, the body plus the spirit does not equal the "soul" by Christ's definition.

A man can kill the physical body of another man, and then the spirit goes to God. A man cannot kill the spirit part of the body. When the spirit is out of a man and the man is dead, he is no longer a soul. He is no longer a living soul.

You are reading into this text what Jesus does not say. He does not say man can kill the body whether it is with or without the spirit! He does not say that the body with the spirit is a soul! He does not say that! YOU are the one reading this into the text.

You do not know what Jesus says, nor do you even repeat correctly what I say.

I have already explained the difference between the spirit and soul at least two times already! Can't you read? Go back to the other thread and you will find at least two different posts explaining the difference.

I knew you could not explain how a man could kill a body but not the soul. For you to explain in detail, would require you to end up saying exactly what I have been saying all along. Since you say in another thread, you believe a spirit has full consciousness, and can think and talk…so explain when a man dies and his body can no longer think, is that his soul that left him, or his spirit? When you answer that honestly, then you will see what I have been saying all along.

 

[billwald]

The other problem of/for cults is they invent problems that don't exist and make a big deal over small differences that don matter. In other words, cults create a straw man and knock it down.

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you really believe what you said there is a legitimate defense against what I said?..lol…

Noticed you could not respond at all to what I said with any substantive evidence that what I said was wrong??? Why? Can't you understand what I said? If what I said is wrong then please point it out!

You are claiming that a man can kill another man’s spirit!

Read what I said again! It is YOUR INTERPRETATION that I said demands this not my interpretation! Read what I said again! I am carrying out what YOU SAID to its logical conclusion NOT WHAT I SAID!

 

[Jedi Knight]

Soul and spirit are the same used interchangeable thought out the Bible. There is a difference when a person is born again and the holy spirit come to dwell in the heart IE soul "spirit" of a person. Our physical bodies are just tents to live in for now untill our change comes! Man I cannot wait for my change!

 

[Walter]

The other problem of/for cults is they invent problems that don't exist and make a big deal over small differences that don matter. In other words, cults create a straw man and knock it down.

An example of such a group is 'Iglesia Ni Christo' in Philippines. They have no connection with The Church of Christ. They now outnumber the JW's worldwide.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Iglesia-ni-Cristo.html

 

[Moriah]

Noticed you could not respond at all to what I said with any substantive evidence that what I said was wrong??? Why? Can't you understand what I said? If what I said is wrong then please point it out!



Read what I said again! It is YOUR INTERPRETATION that I said demands this not my interpretation! Read what I said again! I am carrying out what YOU SAID to its logical conclusion NOT WHAT I SAID!

You fight me about what the soul and spirit is, yet even if I would except your definition, you cannot show that a man can kill the spirit. You cannot even adequately explain why your definition of soul is different than spirit. Please clarify what you have been saying. Do you believe the soul and spirit of a man goes to heaven---two different parts?

 

[The Biblicist]

You fight me about what the soul and spirit is, yet even if I would except your definition, you cannot show that a man can kill the spirit. You cannot even adequately explain why your definition of soul is different than spirit.

I am the one denying that man can kill the "soul" or don't you remember it was I that presented Matthew 10:28.

I am the one that pointed out that a body without the spirit is already dead - James 2:27 and therefore the only kind of body a man can kill is a body that has the spirit in it.

I am the one that pointed out that Jesus did not use the term "spirit" in Matthew 10:28 but rather used the word "soul" demonstrating the "soul" can be SEPARATED from the body by death and still exists APART FROM the body which has been killed by men. Jesus distinguishes the "soul" from the "body" by saying "BOTH" will be cast into gehenna whereas you cannot separate the soul from the body.

Both Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 distinguish between the "spirit" and "soul" BUT YOU DO NOT as you used them interchangably in all the passages I quoted using "soul" and others using "spirit."

Both Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians distinguish the "soul" from the body as Hebrews 4:12 distinguishes "joints and morrow" from "spirit and soul" and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 lists the "body" separate from either "spirit" or "soul."

 

[Moriah]

I am the one denying that man can kill the "soul" or don't you remember it was I that presented Matthew 10:28.

The soul is a spirit with the body---the spirit part cannot be killed, and it is the part that goes to heaven, or not to heaven.

I am the one that pointed out that a body without the spirit is already dead - James 2:27 and therefore the only kind of body a man can kill is a body that has the spirit in it.

If you believe the body without the spirit is dead, THEN WHY ARE YOU GOING AGAINST ME, I ALREADY TOLD YOU THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, and I told you the spirit goes on to heaven. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT OR NOT?

I am the one that pointed out that Jesus did not use the term "spirit" in Matthew 10:28 but rather used the word "soul" demonstrating the "soul" can be SEPARATED from the body by death and still exists APART FROM the body which has been killed by men. Jesus distinguishes the "soul" from the "body" by saying "BOTH" will be cast into gehenna whereas you cannot separate the soul from the body.

Jesus says God can throw both in to Hell. You prove it that you do not understand the scripture, for when does God ever throw a body in Hell, whether with a spirit or not.

Both Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 distinguish between the "spirit" and "soul" BUT YOU DO NOT as you used them interchangably in all the passages I quoted using "soul" and others using "spirit."
Both Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians distinguish the "soul" from the body as Hebrews 4:12 distinguishes "joints and morrow" from "spirit and soul" and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 lists the "body" separate from either "spirit" or "soul."

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
How do you think a soul and spirit can be divided? I will tell you how; it can be divided by the spirit and the body!

 

[The Biblicist]

The soul is a spirit with the body---the spirit part cannot be killed, and it is the part that goes to heaven, or not to heaven.

If you believe the body without the spirit is dead, THEN WHY ARE YOU GOING AGAINST ME, I ALREADY TOLD YOU THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, and I told you the spirit goes on to heaven. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT OR NOT?

Because Jesus demands in Matthew 10:28 that it is the "soul" that continues in existence after the death of the body and so the "soul" either goes to heaven or hell. Simply because the "soul" is in regard to SUBSTANCE spiritual does not mean it is the "spirit' as both Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians deny they are one and the same.

Jesus says God can throw both in to Hell. You prove it that you do not understand the scripture, for when does God ever throw a body in Hell, whether with a spirit or not.

No one is denying that "both" will be thrown into Gehenna (not hades) but between physical death of the body and eternal judgement the SOUL exists without the body along with the "spirit" of man and Matthew 10:28 proves it does as Jesus chooses the word "soul" not "spirit" to demonstrate that the "soul" continues to exist beyond the death of the body in the intermediate state between PHYSICAL and ETERNAL death.

How do you think a soul and spirit can be divided? I will tell you how; it can be divided by the spirit and the body!

Matthew 10:28 denies that! Matthew 10:28 demands the "soul" continues in existence beyond the death of the body during the intermediate period between physical death and eternal judgment. Jesus did not say "pneuma" or "spirit' but "puesche" or "soul"! Men can kill the body but the "soul" continues in existence apart from the body - they cannot kill the "soul"! If the "soul" has no existence apart from the body then they could terminate both when they kill the body.

 

[Moriah]

Because Jesus demands in Matthew 10:28 that it is the "soul" that continues in existence after the death of the body and so the "soul" either goes to heaven or hell. Simply because the "soul" is in regard to SUBSTANCE spiritual does not mean it is the "spirit' as both Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians deny they are one and the same.

You are just saying a bunch of nothing. YOU STILL HAVE NOT EXPLAINED EXACTLY WHAT YOU THINK THE SOUL IS AND WHAT THE SPIRIT IS.

No one is denying that "both" will be thrown into Gehenna (not hades) but between physical death of the body and eternal judgement the SOUL exists without the body along with the "spirit" of man and Matthew 10:28 proves it does as Jesus chooses the word "soul" not "spirit" to demonstrate that the "soul" continues to exist beyond the death of the body in the intermediate state between PHYSICAL and ETERNAL death.

WE DO NOT HAVE TWO THINGS THAT LIVE ON AFTER THE DEATH OF THE BODY! EXPLAIN IT THEN! YOU CANNOT.
In Matthew, where we are told God can throw the body and soul in to hell---WHEN DO YOU THINK THAT GOD HAS EVER THROWN ANY PHYSICAL BODY IN HELL?

Matthew 10:28 denies that! Matthew 10:28 demands the "soul" continues in existence beyond the death of the body during the intermediate period between physical death and eternal judgment.

Matthew 10 is ABOUT OUR RESURRECTED BODY.

Jesus did not say "pneuma" or "spirit' but "puesche" or "soul"! Men can kill the body but the "soul" continues in existence apart from the body - they cannot kill the "soul"! If the "soul" has no existence apart from the body then they could terminate both when they kill the body.

Again, THAT SCRIPTURE IS ABOUT THE RESURRECTED BODY, THE BODY THAT WILL NO LONGER DIE. WHY ARE YOU SO HARD?

 

[The Biblicist]

You simply ignore the evidence that proves they are distinct and separate and that both the spirit and soul continue to exist after the death of the body.

The spirit and soul are distinct faculties of the ONE IMMATERIAL SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE of man that contiues to exist beyond the death of the MATERIAL substance of man.

I have told you repeatedly how they are distinguished. I have shown you scriptures that attribute to the soul the characteristics of self-consciousness (intellectual awareness, emotional awareness and volitional awareness). I have provide scripture that define the "spirit" of man as the immaterial aspect of our spiritual nature that is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, cleansed, renewed and indwelt by the Spirit of God which is described the characteristics of spirit-world consciousness:

1. Our spirit bears witness with the Holy Spirit and through which we worship God "in spirit" - seat of spiritual communion - Rom. 11:14; Jn. 4:24

2. Our spirit is through which we receive direct revelation without study by intellect - seat of intuition - 1 Cor. 2:12-14; 1 Jn. 2:29

3. Our spirit is where the seat of conscious resides above the control of our mind and will.

Your theory is wrong!

1. Because the spirit is distinguished from the soul INSIDE the body - Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 2:23

2. Because the soul continues to exist beyond the death of the body - Mt. 10:28

3. Because the soul is characterized by self-conscious attributes - mind, intellect and will while the spirit is always described in connection with either the Holy Spirit or demonic spirits.

 

[Moriah]

You simply ignore the evidence that proves they are distinct and separate and that both the spirit and soul continue to exist after the death of the body.

See what you did, you went against me and made another thread just like mine about the soul and spirit, and you are only repeating yourself in each thread. I explained to you REPEATEDLY the difference between a soul and the spirit.

The spirit and soul are distinct faculties of the ONE IMMATERIAL SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE of man that contiues to exist beyond the death of the MATERIAL substance of man.

I have explained that to YOU. You also keep saying that man has TWO parts that live on after the death of the body, and you cannot even give any kind of detail to what the differences are.

I have provide scripture that define the "spirit" of man as the immaterial aspect of our spiritual nature that is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, cleansed, renewed and indwelt by the Spirit of God which is described the characteristics of spirit-world consciousness:

Let us see how you handle this question…what is cleansed and renewed and indwelt by the Spirit of God? Describe what is described as the characteristic of spirit-world consciousness? What you say is a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

1. Our spirit bears witness with the Holy Spirit and through which we worship God "in spirit" - seat of spiritual communion - Rom. 11:14; Jn. 4:24

Explain how that works, which you will not be able to logically.

2. Our spirit is through which we receive direct revelation without study by intellect - seat of intuition - 1 Cor. 2:12-14; 1 Jn. 2:29

Seat of what? Lol And how is this different than the soul?

3. Our spirit is where the seat of conscious resides above the control of our mind and will.

That is what you said the soul did in another post. It is still ridiculousness what you are speaking.

Your theory is wrong!

Are you repeating what a Calvinist teacher taught you?

1. Because the spirit is distinguished from the soul INSIDE the body - Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 2:23

I have explained this many times. The spirit is inside a person, and the insides of a person are part of the soul! Do you not know that you have organs inside you?

2. Because the soul continues to exist beyond the death of the body - Mt. 10:28

This is a serious question…are you learning disabled in any way? Because I have told you many times what my explanation to your statement about Matthew 10:28 is. Matthew 10:28 IS ABOUT AFTER THE RESURRECTION WHEN OUR BODIES CAN NO LONGER DIE.

3. Because the soul is characterized by self-conscious attributes - mind, intellect and will while the spirit is always described in connection with either the Holy Spirit or demonic spirits.

I keep asking you, but you cannot explain, because you CANNOT explain. How do you think that the spirit can be in connection with either the Holy Spirit or demonic spirits? How do you think that is possible if the spirit does NOT have a consciousness, a mind, or intellect?!

 

[The Biblicist]

By reading your responses it is obvious you don't even read the post before you respond!!!!! If you had of read the post before you respond you would not make the silly accusations that are answered further down in my post.

It is real difficult to continue to deal civily with a person who simply ignores the evidence you place before them, ridicules both the evidence and the person presenting it by talking down your nose. Gives no substantive responses. The reason I repeat is because you NEVER deal with what I place before you - you ignor and ridicule it but NEVER deal with it.

I explained to you REPEATEDLY the difference between a soul and the spirit.

YOu don't get it do you? I not only reject your distinctions and definitions but provide Biblical evidence to refute them. You are forced to CHANGE THE BIBLICAL LANGUAGE to avoid its condemnation (you substitute "spirit" for the passages that say "soul" and substitute "soul" for the passages that say "spirit" and thus play your little shell game.

Let us see how you handle this question…what is cleansed and renewed and indwelt by the Spirit of God?

More proof that you don't read my post before attempting to answer it. I answer that question just a little further down in my post.

Describe what is described as the characteristic of spirit-world consciousness? What you say is a bunch of mumbo jumbo

I used scripture reference but apparently it is above you level of understanding and that is why it is only "mumbo jumbo" to your level of thinking.

Animals do not have any level of communion and fellowship with God becuase they do not have any faculty defined as "spirit" in the same sense that man does. In contrast, man is designed by God according to be able to have communion with the spirit world (demonic and Divine) through the "spirit" of man. In scriptures, not only is the "spirit" distinguished from the "soul" INSIDE material aspect of humanity but it is always the "spirit" aspect of the immaterial man that is identified with communion with either demonic or the Divine Spirit - NEVER THE SOUL.

John 3:6 "what is born of Spirit is spirit"
Rom. 11:14 "our spirit bears witness with his Spirit"
John 4:24 "God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship Him "in spirit"

The term "soul" is always charcterized with and by terms like "mind" and "heart" and "will"

Explain how that works, which you will not be able to logically.

Very simple! Direct revelation in your "spirit" is the medium you are "led" by the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:14,16). This was what Jesus was talking about to Peter in Matthew 16:17 where Peter was taught by direct revelation to his spirit. It is knowledge that is imparted directly without mental work, study, or effort on your part. It is like God turning on a light inside you so that your mind immediately sees what it never could see before. It is immediate revelation through your "spirit" to your "soul" (mind) without any work by the soul (mind, emotions, will) producing it. You know the truth because God directly revealed it within you where He resides in that aspect of your immaterial nature. Both the "spirit" and the "soul" are different aspects of your immaterial nature as much as the "joints and morrow" are different aspects of you material nature.

Matthew 10:28 IS ABOUT AFTER THE RESURRECTION WHEN OUR BODIES CAN NO LONGER DIE.

Prove this statement from what is said explicitly and literally in Matthew 10:28 or the verses immediately preceding and following it!!! You cannot!

Man killing the body and not the SOUL is the HERE AND NOW! Whereas God throwing "BOTH" in Gehenna is the FUTURE AND HEREAFTER! However, you are attempting to merge the former into the latter in order to make the phrase "man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul" future and hereafter. That is simply twisting the Scriptures to suite yourself and violating what it says. In the immediate context he is dealing with fear of men HERE AND NOW not in the FUTURE AND HEREAFTER at Christ's coming and the resurrection.

He is dealing with what man CAN and CANNOT do here and now in the first phrase not with what God can do in the FUTURE AND HEREAFTER.

How do you think that the spirit can be in connection with either the Holy Spirit or demonic spirits?

Unlike animals the human being is designed to function on three levels of consciousness. He is PHYSICALLY designed to interact with the MATERIAL WORLD by a MATERIAL BODY which has five senses found in the MATERIAL BODY that interact with the EXTERNAL MATERIAL WORLD - smell, touch, hearing, feeling and feeling. All MATERILISTIC attributes to identify with the EXTERNAL MATERIAL WORLD.

There is the INNER WORLD that no other MATERIALISTIC being can see or observe that you are conscious of and interact with - your own thoughts, emotions and volitional determinations. The term "soul" is always directly associated with this INNER WORLD and it is SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS or the active personality within the MATERIAL BODY.

There is the SPIRIT WORLD that no animal can discern or interact with or commune with but man. The human "spirit" as distinct from the "soul" in your IMMATERIAL NATURE (one immaterial nature that has two different distinctions) acts as the medium between the SPIRIT WORLD and your "soul" ( self-consciousness) that brings you into communion with either demonic or the Divine. The "soul" is able to perceive the spirit world through your "spirit" and so acts as the spiritual medium between your "soul" and Satan or God. This is how the "soul" (mind, feelings, will) are taken over by demons through the higher faculty of your spirit. Lost men, witches, demon possessed persons can interact with demons through the medium of their own spirit. The spirit of saved people has been cleansed of the defiling presence of demons and sin and God the Holy Spirit takes up his residence within the spirit of man which has been born of God and created in true holiness and righteousness so that it cannot sin but is perfectly glorified here and now through the new birth (1 Jn. 3:9). This is the past tense "saved" which is complete in regard to you "spirit". The present tense "save" is the santifying of your soul (mind, intellect, will) and the future tense "shall be saved" is the glorification of your body in the future.

How do you think that is possible if the spirit does NOT have a consciousness, a mind, or intellect?!

Just as the body is the vehicle of expression for the soul, the soul is the vehicle of expression for the spirit. When the body is put under the sod, it can no longer be used as the vehicle of expression of the soul and therefore the soul no longer can use the body to express hate, love, memory, etc. under the sun any more (Eccl. 9:5)

 

[Moriah]

By reading your responses it is obvious you don't even read the post before you respond!!!!! If you had of read the post before you respond you would not make the silly accusations that are answered further down in my post.

I do read what you write. I take it in sections and try to understand what you are saying, then I respond.
I would like it if you would do that to everything that I write.

It is real difficult to continue to deal civily with a person who simply ignores the evidence you place before them, ridicules both the evidence and the person presenting it by talking down your nose. Gives no substantive responses. The reason I repeat is because you NEVER deal with what I place before you - you ignor and ridicule it but NEVER deal with it.

Do you know what a hypocrite is? You just wrote here that I ridicule, while you try to ridicule me.

YOu don't get it do you? I not only reject your distinctions and definitions but provide Biblical evidence to refute them. You are forced to CHANGE THE BIBLICAL LANGUAGE to avoid its condemnation (you substitute "spirit" for the passages that say "soul" and substitute "soul" for the passages that say "spirit" and thus play your little shell game.

What you say here is more mumbo jumbo. I do not do what you are accusing me of, and it is hard to understand how you can say such untruths.

More proof that you don't read my post before attempting to answer it. I answer that question just a little further down in my post.

I read and answer a small section at a time. I hoped that you would appreciate the special care I give to each point you try to make.

I used scripture reference but apparently it is above you level of understanding and that is why it is only "mumbo jumbo" to your level of thinking.

I am sorry if I sound too rough to you at times, but it is my honest evaluation of what it sounds like. People twist the word of God into all kinds of strange doctrines, and then they try to explain it and it sounds like some kind of mumbo jumbo. You even twist what I say sometimes, and that sounds like mumbo jumbo to me too.

Animals do not have any level of communion and fellowship with God becuase they do not have any faculty defined as "spirit" in the same sense that man does.

What is the point of saying this? There is no point in you saying this.

In contrast, man is designed by God according to be able to have communion with the spirit world (demonic and Divine) through the "spirit" of man.

How do you communion with demons?

In scriptures, not only is the "spirit" distinguished from the "soul" INSIDE material aspect of humanity but it is always the "spirit" aspect of the immaterial man that is identified with communion with either demonic or the Divine Spirit - NEVER THE SOUL.

Therefore, are you saying that people communion with demons never with the soul, the soul that can speak, hear, and think? How do people communion with the demons then?

John 3:6 "what is born of Spirit is spirit"

What the Holy Spirit teaches us and when we do it, that is being born of the Spirit, which is our living by the our spirit and not living by the flesh.

Rom. 11:14 "our spirit bears witness with his Spirit"

Why do you just quote scripture and not try to explain what you believe? Do you mean Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
How do you think that disproves what I said?

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship Him "in spirit"

When we do right, we are worshiping in spirit and in truth, when we worship God. When we do right, we are not following the flesh. NOW YOU EXPLAIN IT FROM YOUR BELIEFS.

The term "soul" is always charcterized with and by terms like "mind" and "heart" and "will"

Now, explain how it is not the spirit you are describing.

Very simple! Direct revelation in your "spirit" is the medium you are "led" by the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:14,16).

If it is simple, then why do you still not explain what the revelation is received by if not by the mind.

This was what Jesus was talking about to Peter in Matthew 16:17 where Peter was taught by direct revelation to his spirit.

It came to Peter and he spoke it, so now explain how that did not happen with the mind, the mind that you call part of the soul!

It is knowledge that is imparted directly without mental work, study, or effort on your part. It is like God turning on a light inside you so that your mind immediately sees what it never could see before.

You are NOT describing the spirit; you are describing a truth given by God without a person studying.

 

[Moriah]

It is immediate revelation through your "spirit" to your "soul" (mind) without any work by the soul (mind, emotions, will) producing it.

Because God put something in your mind, THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHAT OUR SPIRIT IS, NOR DOES IT EXPLAIN WHAT THE SPIRIT DOES.

You know the truth because God directly revealed it within you where He resides in that aspect of your immaterial nature.

You are not saying anything here that goes against what I say about the soul.

Both the "spirit" and the "soul" are different aspects of your immaterial nature as much as the "joints and morrow" are different aspects of you material nature.

You say that, but you cannot explain what the spirit is. You have only stated that the spirit is not material. You have only stated that the spirit is not the mind, but is above the mind. You have not explained anything.

Prove this statement from what is said explicitly and literally in Matthew 10:28 or the verses immediately preceding and following it!!! You cannot!Man killing the body and not the SOUL is the HERE AND NOW!

Man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the soul. Man cannot kill the body with the spirit. Only God can throw the body and soul in Hell, and that is why you should fear God and not man.

Whereas God throwing "BOTH" in Gehenna is the FUTURE AND HEREAFTER!

The Great White Thrown Judgment is in the future. The resurrection is in the future.

However, you are attempting to merge the former into the latter in order to make the phrase "man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul" future and hereafter.

No, man can NEVER kill the soul, only God can put the soul in Hell, so how do you say future and heareafter when it comes to the man? Furthermore, God does not put a body or a soul in Hell, but God can put the soul of man in Hell, but not until the Great White Thrown Judgment. Only spirits of people can go to Hell or Heaven.

That is simply twisting the Scriptures to suite yourself and violating what it says. In the immediate context he is dealing with fear of men HERE AND NOW not in the FUTURE AND HEREAFTER at Christ's coming and the resurrection.

If there is no future at all in that scripture, THEN ANSWER RIGHT NOW WHEN IN THE BIBLE GOD HAS PUT A HUMAN’S BODY IN HELL OR HADES.

He is dealing with what man CAN and CANNOT do here and now in the first phrase not with what God can do in the FUTURE AND HEREAFTER.

THEN ANSWER RIGHT NOW WHEN IN THE BIBLE GOD HAS PUT A HUMAN’S BODY IN HELL OR HADES.

Unlike animals the human being is designed to function on three levels of consciousness. He is PHYSICALLY designed to interact with the MATERIAL WORLD by a MATERIAL BODY which has five senses found in the MATERIAL BODY that interact with the EXTERNAL MATERIAL WORLD - smell, touch, hearing, feeling and feeling. All MATERILISTIC attributes to identify with the EXTERNAL MATERIAL WORLD.

You would not be able to smell, touch, hear, feel, and have emotions without the spirit.

There is the INNER WORLD that no other MATERIALISTIC being can see or observe that you are conscious of and interact with - your own thoughts, emotions and volitional determinations. The term "soul" is always directly associated with this INNER WORLD and it is SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS or the active personality within the MATERIAL BODY.

You would not have any thoughts, emotions, or anything else if you did not have a spirit.

There is the SPIRIT WORLD that no animal can discern or interact with or commune with but man.

Why are you speaking of animals? Let us stick to humans in this thread.

The human "spirit" as distinct from the "soul" in your IMMATERIAL NATURE (one immaterial nature that has two different distinctions) acts as the medium between the SPIRIT WORLD and your "soul" ( self-consciousness) that brings you into communion with either demonic or the Divine.

You need to explain what your beliefs are of what the spirit is. Just do not say what it is not.

The "soul" is able to perceive the spirit world through your "spirit" and so acts as the spiritual medium between your "soul" and Satan or God.

How does it do that if it does not have a mind or any thoughts?

This is how the "soul" (mind, feelings, will) are taken over by demons through the higher faculty of your spirit.

That is not what the Bible says how demons take over a human.

Lost men, witches, demon possessed persons can interact with demons through the medium of their own spirit.

You have explained nothing of substance about the human spirit.

The spirit of saved people has been cleansed of the defiling presence of demons and sin and God the Holy Spirit takes up his residence within the spirit of man which has been born of God and created in true holiness and righteousness so that it cannot sin but is perfectly glorified here and now through the new birth (1 Jn. 3:9).

I do not think that you have any idea how that happens. Here you also say that man cannot sin, and in other threads you say man cannot stop sinning!

This is the past tense "saved" which is complete in regard to you "spirit". The present tense "save" is the santifying of your soul (mind, intellect, will) and the future tense "shall be saved" is the glorification of your body in the future.

Huh?

 

[JoReba]

One primary problem with Christian cults is that they define human nature on the same level as animal life. They see no constituent distinctions between animals and humans in regard to their constituent nature. They interpret "soul" to either be equal to "life" or "body" and they interpret "spirit" to be equal to "air" or "breath." They interpret the "image" of God to either be something visible or a higher degree of mental function due to the physical make up of the mind.

Hence, they interpret the death of humans to be no different than the death of brute beasts and thus nothing that continues past PHYSICAL death, thus no continuance beyond physical death.

In keeping with this distortion of human nature they define "life" and "death" as existence or cessation of being rather than the Biblical definition of two different states of existence (separation or union).

Jesus flatly denies that the body of man is synonymous with the "soul" of man in Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If the "body" was the "soul" then Christ would never have stated that man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul as to kill one would be to kill the other if they were one and the same! Obviously they are not the same.

Furthermore, the Greek term [apolummi] translated "destroy" is used two other times in this same chapter first in verse 6 where it is translated "lost" and in verse 39 where it is translated "lose" and "loseth":

Mt. 10:6 But go rather to the lost [apolummi] sheep of the house of Israel.

The term never means "anihilated" or "cessation of being" or "unconsciousness" as none of these ideas will fit with the text:

"But go rather to the anihilated sheep of the house of Israel"??

"But go rather to the cessation of being sheep of the house of Israel"????

"But go rather to the unconscious sheep of the house of Israel"????

The Greek term "apolummi" is composed of two words [apo and luo] that etymological means "to loose away" or to "separate." However, its meaning by usage is to "render useless" as it is used of wine skins that have busted and thus rendered useless. The wine skins have split. They have not been anhilated or ceased to exist or become unconscious. The unconverted sheep of Israel are rendered useless forthe glory of God in their unregenerated state.

When man kills the body he is trying to kill the soul as the body merely acts as the vehicle of expression for the soul. It is the soul that (mind, heart will) or personality that makes the body odious to man and therefore he attempts to kill the soul but only accomplishes killing the body. On the other hand, God places both the body and soul in gehenna eternally where their expression is not only rendered useless and harmless but is eternally separated from God.

Mt. 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose [apollumi] it: and he that loseth [apollumi] his life for my sake shall find it.

How is it to find "his life shall anihilate it"??

How is it to find "his life shall cause it to cease being"???

How is it to find "his life shall make it unconscious"???

How is it to anihilate his life is to find it?

How is it to cause it to cease shall find it?

How is it to become unconscious shall find it?

What Jesus is teaching is that if you want to save your life for the glory of God you must render it useless for self glory because if you render it useless for self glory and live it for Christ you will find it.

Matthew 10:28 denies that soul is the body.

Matthew 10:28 denies that the soul ceases to exist or becomes unconscious or anihilated when the body dies

Matthew 10:28 denies that the soul and body is anhilated, or ceases to be, or becomes unconscious in Gehenna.

You have stated what the Soul is not. Now go ahead and tell us what the Soul is in order to complete this discourse.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have stated what the Soul is not. Now go ahead and tell us what the Soul is in order to complete this discourse.

Of course I have defined the soul several times already on this thread. However, since you are new I will accomodate your question.

The soul is your conscious personality that consists of intellect/mind, emotions and volition. It is your conscious self or the mental, emotional, volitional interaction that goes on inside you. That interaction within is manifested by what you say and do without and so the outward expression is your transparent "life" because as a man thinketh in his heart so is he!

Hence, the soul is what really angers men so that they desire to kill you. It is not your body they are trying to kill, it is what is obnoxious to them - your personality, soul expression through the body. The body simply serves as the vehicle of expression for the soul. Man can kill the body but they cannot kill the soul.

The human "spirit" and "soul" are distinguished from each other by the Word of God (Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 5:23) but both are IMMATERIAL substance or spirit as God is spirit in substance.

However, just as the body is the vehicle of expression for the soul, the soul is the vehicle of expression for the spirit. As the soul is the seat of conscious SELF life the spirit is the seat of conscious SPIRITUAL life. It is the spirit of man that enteracts with the spirit world just as the body enteracts with the outerworld. The spirit is the medium through which the spirit world is made conscious to the soul just as the body is the medium through which the outer world is made conscious to the soul. It is through the human spirit that direct revelatory knowledge is made conscious to the soul's mind without study or intellectual activity. It is the spirit that is the seat of the conscience. It is the spirit that is born of the Spirit and where the Spirit of God dwells within the child of God and our spirit bears witness with His Spirit.

When God created man God breathed plural "LIVES" into man - spiritual life, soul life, physical life making man a triune being as one aspect created in the image or likeness of God. The unglorified man is a "living soul" whereas the glorified man is a "living spirit." The distinction is not a matter of substance (spirit, soul and body) but the priority of dominance as the glorified man is no longer "SELF" driven but "Spirit" driven. The "soul" is the seat of SELF-consciousness where mind, emotions and will dominate man. The glorified man is completed subjected to God through his "spirit".

Salvation is three-fold for the whole man.

1. What is born of Spirit is spirit - Past tense "saved" - regeneration/justification - "live in the Spirit"

2. Conscious submission to the spirit (soul) - "save" - progressive sanctification -"walk in the Spirit"

3. This corruptible put on incorrupiton (body) - "shall be saved" - glorification