Is Cal/Non-Cal important enough to divide?

[DaChaser1]

Do they now? Ive no proof of that? Is a non cal also an arminian?

now the doctrines of grace folks I know point to one central truth.... salvation is all of grace because it is all of God; and because it is all of God, it is all to His glory.

Gospel is that Giod sent forth his Only begooten sin, to die as an atonemnt for sinners such as you and I...

Whosover believes on him has Eternal Life, he who does not, wrath of God abides on him...

Cal/Arms/non cals all affirm this, we severly disagree on just who are the "whosoever?"

 

[Tom Butler]

Some may wonder how we Cals co-exist with the non-Cals in my church.

The answer is that we agree more than we disagree.

For instance:
Do both sides agree that all have sinned, and that the wages of sin is death?
Yes

Do we believe in Holy Spirit conviction of sin?
Yes

Do we both believe that the Holy Spirit draws sinners?
Yes

Do we both believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates our minds and helps us see truth regarding our relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes

Do we believe that the lost are saved through the foolishness of preaching?
Yes

Do we both believe that salvation is through repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes

Do we both believe that we are commanded to share these truths with others?
Yes

Do we both believe that a sinner, once saved, cannot be lost again? That God is able to keep those who have committed to him?
Yes.

Do we both believe that God is sovereign?
Yes

Do we agree that there is such a thing as election?
Yes

Is our message to the lost the same for both views?
Yes, God commands us to repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Do we agree on the basis of God's election?
No, but see how far down the list this question is?

Do we agree on the extent of the atonement?
No, but how does that change the message we both are commanded to take to the lost?

I think now you can understand why we Calvinists and non-Calvinists work together, fellowship together, worship together and witness together in our church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The one you want to have if you want to be right! Stop asking such easy questions!

OK then get complicated & define it further...drill down to the nuts & bolts of your your belief system. Give me some meat instead of Pablum.

 

[jonathan.borland]

And non cals hold tot he exact same thing.

Amen, brother! Why do some persist in setting up false dichotomies?

 

[mandym]

Do we agree on the basis of God's election?
No, but see how far down the list this question is?

Which is where you put it on your list. Some Cals would place it first and make it a serious point of contention and then judge anyone who does not hold to the same thing by suggesting non cals do not preach the gospel because they do not hold to the same false view of election.

 

[jonathan.borland]

OK then get complicated & define it further...drill down to the nuts & bolts of your your belief system. Give me some meat instead of Pablum.

I'm on an iPhone and they're not exactly appropriate for typing a monograph on a discussion board. Besides, you'll come around eventually. They always do, sometimes not till heaven, but eventually you'll get there!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some may wonder how we Cals co-exist with the non-Cals in my church.

The answer is that we agree more than we disagree.

For instance:
Do both sides agree that all have sinned, and that the wages of sin is death?
Yes

Do we believe in Holy Spirit conviction of sin?
Yes

Do we both believe that the Holy Spirit draws sinners?
Yes

Do we both believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates our minds and helps us see truth regarding our relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes

Do we believe that the lost are saved through the foolishness of preaching?
Yes

Do we both believe that salvation is through repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes

Do we both believe that we are commanded to share these truths with others?
Yes

Do we both believe that a sinner, once saved, cannot be lost again? That God is able to keep those who have committed to him?
Yes.

Do we both believe that God is sovereign?
Yes

Do we agree that there is such a thing as election?
Yes

Is our message to the lost the same for both views?
Yes, God commands us to repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Do we agree on the basis of God's election?
No, but see how far down the list this question is?

Do we agree on the extent of the atonement?
No, but how does that change the message we both are commanded to take to the lost?

I think now you can understand why we Calvinists and non-Calvinists work together, fellowship together, worship together and witness together in our church.

How do you address this, Yes or No is preferred... Is salvation by grace alone?

 

[Tom Butler]

In my previous post (#42) I may have left the impression that the views held by Calvinists and non-Calvinists are not important.

In fact, they are not inconsequential. The differing views held by each side may directly affect how we carry out the Great Commission.

But each church must determine for itself whether it wants to fight over these issues.

Let me tell you our church does not.

Thirty years ago, our church voted to relocate from the south side of Paducah to a tract of land on an interstate interchange. The majority approved, but it was not unanimous. When we finally moved in 1986, a significant number of members did not go with us. They "relocated" to other churches.

And although the exodus left our church united and of one mind (which has basically continued to this day), it left pain and scars. Many of us vowed we'd never go through another church fight unless it involved fighting heresy.

Unity in a church is precious. When you have it you'll work hard to keep it.

Our church is unified. I won't be part of any effort to divide it over Calvinism. Now you know why.

 

[Tom Butler]

Which is where you put it on your list. Some Cals would place it first and make it a serious point of contention and then judge anyone who does not hold to the same thing by suggesting non cals do not preach the gospel because they do not hold to the same false view of election.

My pastor is not a Calvinist, but is as biblically solid as any pastor I have ever had. The gospel he preaches is the same gospel I believe.

Let me add this. If a Calvinist wants to make this an issue in his church, he'd better be prepared for the consequences. Does he really believe that it's worth losing a bunch of members? Does he really believe it's worth dividing the congregation? Does he really believe his efforts will result in a Calvinist church?

He'd better know those answers before starting the fight? To start the fight, divide the church, run off members, and lose the battle anyway just doesn't make sense.

And he just might get run off for his efforts. Then what has been accomplished?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm on an iPhone and they're not exactly appropriate for typing a monograph on a discussion board. Besides, you'll come around eventually. They always do, sometimes not till heaven, but eventually you'll get there!

Actually I was going to say the same thing about you...LOL

.... see because unless you mature in the direction of Doctrines of Grace .... ahhh this is hard to say to a well meaning but muddled brother, through the Grace of God & the HS that you will eventually see it your errors, otherwise your own theological dislocation will lead you to the eventual abandonment of orthodoxy. I will pray for you.

 

[mandym]

My pastor is not a Calvinist, but is as biblically solid as any pastor I have ever had. The gospel he preaches is the same gospel I believe.

Let me add this. If a Calvinist wants to make this an issue in his church, he'd better be prepared for the consequences. Does he really believe that it's worth losing a bunch of members? Does he really believe it's worth dividing the congregation? Does he really believe his efforts will result in a Calvinist church?

He'd better know those answers before starting the fight? To start the fight, divide the church, run off members, and lose the battle anyway just doesn't make sense.

And he just might get run off for his efforts. Then what has been accomplished?

One of my best friends is a Cal. We meet regularly and pray with and for each other. We share our difficulties and vent as well as rejoice in God's move in both our churches as well as work together in the community. But at no time does he take the antagonistic attitude we see on this board by some Cals.

We had one couple who was a Cal visit for a while but he would not stay because he could not deal with the fact that Calvinism doesn't get preached.

 

[mandym]

.... see because unless you mature in the direction of Doctrines of Grace ....

And there is a clear example of the reason for division. Such statements would split a church.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Actually I was going to say the same thing about you...LOL

.... see because unless you mature in the direction of Doctrines of Grace .... ahhh this is hard to say to a well meaning but muddled brother, through the Grace of God & the HS that you will eventually see it your errors, otherwise your own theological dislocation will lead you to the eventual abandonment of orthodoxy. I will pray for you.

Funny thing is, I fully believe in the biblical doctrine of grace, and will never bow my knee to the manmade and socalled "Doctrines of Grace." Pity those who fall into that maze of human philosophy ungrounded by the Word, and what other human philosophies and man made traditions must they be susceptible to! Pity them indeed!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Funny thing is, I fully believe in the biblical doctrine of grace, and will never bow my knee to the manmade and socalled "Doctrines of Grace." Pity those who fall into that maze of human philosophy ungrounded by the Word, and what other human philosophies and man made traditions must they be susceptible to! Pity them indeed!

So answer the question that Tom didnt answer .... Ready.., Yes or No is preferred... Is salvation by grace alone?

 

[DaChaser1]

So answer the question that Tom didnt answer .... Ready.., Yes or No is preferred... Is salvation by grace alone?

YES...

ALL true christians would agree on that truth, we fully disagree as to HOW we got the faith needed to receive the Grace of God towards us in Christ!

 

[DaChaser1]

Some may wonder how we Cals co-exist with the non-Cals in my church.

The answer is that we agree more than we disagree.

For instance:
Do both sides agree that all have sinned, and that the wages of sin is death?
Yes

Do we believe in Holy Spirit conviction of sin?
Yes

Do we both believe that the Holy Spirit draws sinners?
Yes

Do we both believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates our minds and helps us see truth regarding our relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes

Do we believe that the lost are saved through the foolishness of preaching?
Yes

Do we both believe that salvation is through repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes

Do we both believe that we are commanded to share these truths with others?
Yes

Do we both believe that a sinner, once saved, cannot be lost again? That God is able to keep those who have committed to him?
Yes.

Do we both believe that God is sovereign?
Yes

Do we agree that there is such a thing as election?
Yes

Is our message to the lost the same for both views?
Yes, God commands us to repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Do we agree on the basis of God's election?
No, but see how far down the list this question is?

Do we agree on the extent of the atonement?
No, but how does that change the message we both are commanded to take to the lost?

I think now you can understand why we Calvinists and non-Calvinists work together, fellowship together, worship together and witness together in our church.

Think that a vast majority of christians in our baptist churches don't really think as much as we do on the BB as regards to sotierology!

MOST would agree that need to place faith in jesus, that He died for their sins , and that we are eternally secured, But could NOT name what election is by Bible, if Supra/Infr etc!

 

[12strings]

Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire
So answer the question that Tom didnt answer .... Ready.., Yes or No is preferred... Is salvation by grace alone?

I would say you are asking a question the bible doesn't answer:

-The Bible says "by grace are you saved, Through Faith."
-The "grace" of God must be defined. God's grace in giving the gift of salvation could not be applied apart from Christ's sacrifice. So which is it?
-Christ alone? Grace Alone? Faith alone? Solid Christians have claimed all of these, sometimes multiples of them...they were adopted as rallying cries to combat a specific error of their time.

So I could say, 'No Grace doesn't save me, Christ saves me." Would I be right or wrong? does it matter?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would say you are asking a question the bible doesn't answer:

-The Bible says "by grace are you saved, Through Faith."
-The "grace" of God must be defined. God's grace in giving the gift of salvation could not be applied apart from Christ's sacrifice. So which is it?
-Christ alone? Grace Alone? Faith alone? Solid Christians have claimed all of these, sometimes multiples of them...they were adopted as rallying cries to combat a specific error of their time.

So I could say, 'No Grace doesn't save me, Christ saves me." Would I be right or wrong? does it matter?

Ahhh, I just asked for a simple yes or no answer!

 

[12strings]

I'd like to address Seeking, if he's still following this thread:

So yes, i favor denying membership to any CHRISTIAN that believes in a different path to salvation than we do. If they teach contrary to what we teach then they need to find a "like-minded" church, not ours.John

It seems to me that Calvinists would try to infiltrate a regular church in order to convert the regular church to Calvinism. That seems to be the goal here on the BB.Regular Christians would just find a regular church, and leave the Cals alone.

-I think you are drawing to sharp a distinction here between calvinists and "regular Christians." Many Calvinists are "regular Christians." "Regular" is defined differently by everyone. Many people would draw a sharp distinction between "Baptists" and "regular Christians." I think they would be in error.
-Read Tom Butler's long post on this thread where he gives a long list of things the cals and non-cals agree on. I would say Calvinism is not teaching "A different path to salvation." Rather, they are simply interpreting scriptures differently about God's behind-the-scenes workings in salvation.

Same with Calvinists. That was my point. I consider the teachings of Calvinism as dangerous to our congregation as RCC rituals, sexual immorality, and conditional salvation.

-I don't think there is any doubt that you are giving Calvinists way too much credit/notoriety here. I have seen DOZENS of families and lives wrecked irreversibly by sexual immorality, and seen zero wrecked by Calvinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"I have seen DOZENS of families and lives wrecked irreversibly by sexual immorality, and seen zero wrecked by Calvinism."

Point well taken & I will add that the Calvinistic world view is perhaps best encapsulated in the 1st answer in the Westminster Shorter catechism: "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever."