Is Cal/Non-Cal important enough to divide?

[Iconoclast]

Does God will that everyone should repent and that none should perish? If that is his will, what prevents it from being accomplished?

That is not God's will. He wills that many perish;
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God's will is always accomplished;
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


God will save everyone he has purposed to save in the Covenant of grace....
no more...no less

 

[jonathan.borland]

That is not God's will. He wills that many perish;

Your word directly contradicts God's Word (2 Peter 3:9). Let God be true and every man a liar. God does not will that any perish. They perishing is of their own stubborn refusal to obey God.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Paul was very combative when some sought to mix works with grace ...as several do here on BB;

Who mixes works with grace on the BB? Perhaps you confuse the mingling of faith and works, without which faith is dead, i.e., ineffectual and actually non-existent.

I would suggest to you that Paul was very combative when semi -pelagians sought to pervert the gospel.

Who here says man can come to God without God's grace? Are you just misrepresenting people or what?

when doctrine is perverted...no unity can take place....ONLY ERROR.....or COMPROMISE.

The only perversion of doctrine I see is the doctrine you wrongly surmise that others have, when in fact they don't, apparently all just to push your own agenda, but I could be wrong, and you actually know that you are wrongly depicting others' views in order to make them look bad, in which case the scenario is worse than I thought.

This is not so. calvinists speak to the complete 66 books of scripture.

All Baptists do that, or else they're not true Baptists.

really.....look at what was brought up in this thread alone...no scripture...just evil speaking saying calvinist teaching is from hell{no impure motives there}:thumbs:

I never said Calvinism is from hell. It's from the mind of man but not the mind of God. Divisiveness is also from man, and Paul said not to have anything to do with divisive people.

 

[convicted1]

Your word directly contradicts God's Word (2 Peter 3:9). Let God be true and every man a liar. God does not will that any perish. They perishing is of their own stubborn refusal to obey God.

In that very verse, you can see "to us-ward". Now, their rebuttal will be that He is not willing that any of the "to us-ward" would perish. They think that the "to us-ward" = the elect. So they're stating that God isn't willing that any of His elect perish, but that all(the elect=all), come to repentence. Now, I can't make a rubberband stretch as far as they stretch this verse, but this will be their rebuttal. Mark this down......

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Andy is my leading "pastor/teacher" of the church that I attend. He is the son of Charles Stanley, pastor of FBC Atlanta.

http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...934l3813l0l4250l12l12l0l3l3l0l122l552l8.1l9l0

Thanks but for me, there is none better than Sinclair Ferguson

http://feedingonchrist.com/sinclair-ferguson-basics-conference-videos-on-union-with-christ/

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Would Paul be combative if people were trying to get people to join the "I am of Calvin" camp? The fact that we call those who are not of that camp things like non-Cal speaks for itself. Many Calvinists are on a mission to promote or focus on certain doctrines above or at the expense of all the others. Just see where certain people focus all their posts. They are, as Iconoclast said but in the opposite direction, neglecting the whole council of God. Non Cals explain each and every Scripture the Cals bring up, and I believe with the proper interpretation. No need to lambast them and impute impure motives to them. Shame on you! How divisive! In fact the Scripture does speak to the issues of those who are divisive: have nothing to do with them (1 Pet 3:10).

Why dont you read the post(218) Jon just posted right above you JB. Your acting out like a child. Want a pacifier?

 

[Luke2427]

You just to get that little jab in at the end didnt you?

Well, since you started us down this road....I believe that Calvinism comes straight from the pits of Hell, with the intent to discourage lost people from responding to God for fear not being one of the "elect'

Some people have lived such a sinful life that Calvinism and the thought of having to be predestined plainly discourages sinners.

It is your doctrine that is NOT the truth of the Bible. It is man-made.

I can use 'systematic theology' to prove or disprove any doctrine I want to, just like Calvinists do by linking together unrelated scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

I despise Reformed Theology, and the damage it is doing to God's people.

I did not wish to go this far in this discussion, but your flippant and arrogant remarks demand it.

John

This is ridiculous beyond belief. Not only is it phenomenally ignorant, it is deeply offensive.

It is ignorant because it ignores the fact that some of the greatest and most powerfully used Christians of all time have been thorough going Calvinists.

To say the entire theology of the pilgrims and the puritans, most of the founders of this nation, the father of modern missions- William Carey, the 'prince of preachers'- Charles Spurgeon, the instruments of the Great Awakening- Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield; to say that the theology of such people is out of the pit of hell is dumb beyond belief. People who have no better sense than to say such a thing ought to have the humility to not speak on such matters.

It is offensive for extraordinarily obvious reasons.

 

[JonC]

This is ridiculous beyond belief. Not only is it phenomenally ignorant, it is deeply offensive.

It is offensive for extraordinarily obvious reasons.

Good statement. I think that this can often be said of people arguing from both sides of the debate.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Why dont you read the post(218) Jon just posted right above you JB. Your acting out like a child. Want a pacifier?

Yeah, all of you say that God did not cause people to sin. That would shut me up for a minute or two through pure shock and disbelief.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yeah, all of you say that God did not cause people to sin. That would shut me up for a minute or two through pure shock and disbelief.

would that it were not longer....much much longer:smilewinkgrin:

 

[seekingthetruth]

This is ridiculous beyond belief. Not only is it phenomenally ignorant, it is deeply offensive.

It is ignorant because it ignores the fact that some of the greatest and most powerfully used Christians of all time have been thorough going Calvinists.

To say the entire theology of the pilgrims and the puritans, most of the founders of this nation, the father of modern missions- William Carey, the 'prince of preachers'- Charles Spurgeon, the instruments of the Great Awakening- Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield; to say that the theology of such people is out of the pit of hell is dumb beyond belief. People who have no better sense than to say such a thing ought to have the humility to not speak on such matters.

It is offensive for extraordinarily obvious reasons.

There have been many more RCC scholars thoughout history than DoG scholars.

Does that mean that the RCC doctrine is biblical?

John

 

[preacher4truth]

This is ridiculous beyond belief. Not only is it phenomenally ignorant, it is deeply offensive.

It is ignorant because it ignores the fact that some of the greatest and most powerfully used Christians of all time have been thorough going Calvinists.

To say the entire theology of the pilgrims and the puritans, most of the founders of this nation, the father of modern missions- William Carey, the 'prince of preachers'- Charles Spurgeon, the instruments of the Great Awakening- Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield; to say that the theology of such people is out of the pit of hell is dumb beyond belief. People who have no better sense than to say such a thing ought to have the humility to not speak on such matters.

It is offensive for extraordinarily obvious reasons.

Say that about a non-cal or arminian, it gets snipped with infractions and 'PM's.'

 

[convicted1]

Say that about a non-cal or arminian, it gets snipped with infractions and 'PM's.'

That's why I stated we remain at odds with each other. Too many unwarranted shots across the bow. We need to disagree, but do so in a manner that doesn't become unseemly.

 

[Luke2427]

There have been many more RCC scholars thoughout history than DoG scholars.

Does that mean that the RCC doctrine is biblical?

John

Name 5 of them who are highly respected and appreciated by evangelical Christians.

Hey, name five of them that any of us on baptistboard even recognize.

Or even better, name five of them from off the top of your OWN head. How many of them are YOU PERSONALLY familiar with?

Enter the Jeopardy theme song...

 

[Luke2427]

Say that about a non-cal or arminian, it gets snipped with infractions and 'PM's.'

I have to agree.

 

[jonathan.borland]

would that it were not longer....much much longer:smilewinkgrin:

Haha, good one! Who knows, maybe my iPhone will explode at y'all's confession that God doesn't cause sin.

Actually I just read your statement and it actually means you wish it were shorter. How funny!

"would that it were not longer"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Haha, good one! Who knows, maybe my iPhone will explode at y'all's confession that God doesn't cause sin.

Actually I just read your statement and it actually means you wish it were shorter. How funny!

"would that it were not longer"

Dont start with that crap :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Name 5 of them who are highly respected and appreciated by evangelical Christians.

Hey, name five of them that any of us on baptistboard even recognize.

Or even better, name five of them from off the top of your OWN head. How many of them are YOU PERSONALLY familiar with?

Enter the Jeopardy theme song...

Ambrose, Augustine, Anthony Antonius, Francis, Ignatius, Ignatius Loyola, Thomas Aquinas, Boniface, Linus, Cletas, Clemen, Jerome, Clement, Bonaventure, Duns Scotus.... they will say Peter.

32 yrs ..... RC....couldnt resist!

 

[MB]

That is not God's will. He wills that many perish;

You haven't a clue what God's will is.

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Bible does say this These had no humility and boasted on their accomplishments.

God's will is always accomplished;

Nonsense if this were so you could prove it with scripture and you can't.

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


God will save everyone he has purposed to save in the Covenant of grace....
no more...no less

Do you really believe what you have said here is supported with the passages you have posted?
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Your word directly contradicts God's Word (2 Peter 3:9). Let God be true and every man a liar. God does not will that any perish. They perishing is of their own stubborn refusal to obey God.

Hello Jonathan,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. At this time we do not see things the same way.....but lets see if we can close the distance between us scripturally.
Look at what Willis posts here.

In that very verse, you can see "to us-ward". Now, their rebuttal will be that He is not willing that any of the "to us-ward" would perish. They think that the "to us-ward" = the elect. So they're stating that God isn't willing that any of His elect perish, but that all(the elect=all), come to repentence. Now, I can't make a rubberband stretch as far as they stretch this verse, but this will be their rebuttal. Mark this down......

Jonathan....Willis is correct in that we respond with keeping the verse in context. Then Willis expresses his thought that this is a stretch....well lets look together....Jonathan take your time with this...go back and read post 221 with the very good verses from isa.''''ok...then i will answer your second response also:thumbs:

Let me demonstrate why we see it differently..ok?
Jonathan...Peter is helping out the saints , the elect.... warning of scoffers and false teachers...agreed???
2 Peter 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you

Are we agreed...take a minute to read the whole epistle leading up to 3:9..I will highlight the contrast between the elect and the false teacher...the elect and the scoffer...look at the highlighted portion and ask yourself...is it addressed to everyone? or US? everyone..or the Beloved???

2 Peter 3

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do not leave out the phrase..to -usward.....who is the to usward ..in the whole chapter.....the elect who are being saved? or those who perish....the beloved ...or the false teacher???



Willis almost sees it...but not quite....Jonathan ...do you see it in context of the whole book??? and this chapter in particular???
well lets see if the contrast stays throughout the whole chapter?

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Now ....look at your response to me....can you see it now???