Featured Easier?

Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I would like to know how Calvinists understand this scripture. Why, if a person is chosen before the foundation of the world, and drawn by Irresistible Grace would it be more difficult for a rich person to be saved?

Seems to me if DoG is correct that it would not make one bit of difference if a person is rich or poor whether they would be saved. If God has chosen them and calls them through Irresistible Grace, they will easily be saved.

So, why did Jesus say it is difficult (How hardly) for a rich person to be saved if the DoG's are correct?

 

I agree with your interpretation Amy, but that does not answer the question. Why, if God chooses certain individuals to be saved, and draws them with Irresistible Grace would it be difficult for a rich man to enter heaven?

 

That STILL does not answer the question (and I believe you KNOW that). Why would it be more difficult (How hardly) for a rich man to be saved?

Look, I have been around here long enough to understand Calvinist doctrine (although I know you will disagree).

First, most Calvinists believe in Unconditional Election. So, it does not matter whether a man is rich or poor whether he will be elected.

Second, most Calvinists believe in Irresistible Grace. When God calls a man by his effectual grace that man will immediately become willing to believe in Jesus.

So why would it be more difficult for a rich man to be saved? He has as much chance of being chosen or elected as a poor man, and if he is effectually called he will irresistibly believe in Jesus.

So again, how do Calvinists reconcile these statements by Jesus saying that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?

 

Another non-answer. If you can't answer this, simply say so.

Why, if God elects men unconditionally, and effectually calls those whom he has elected so that they will irresistibly believe the gospel, would it be more difficult for a rich man to be saved?

If you can't answer, just say so, but don't deflect.

 

That is not an answer. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Why? Does God have to exert more effectual grace to save a rich man than a poor man? Is it more difficult for God to save a rich man than a poor man in Calvinist thought?

Jesus was clearly implying that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than a poor man. Why?

 

Amy, you are missing the point of my question completely. We are all sinners, it is impossible for any of us to enter heaven on merit.

But in the non-Cal view a man can be saved if he chooses to submit to God and trust in Christ. In the non-Cal view it makes sense that a poor man would trust Christ before a rich person would. Rich people tend to be much more confident in themselves than a poor person. They tend to be more self-reliant.

Prov 11:28 He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.

Deut 8:11 Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:
12 Lest when thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt therein;
13 And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;
14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;

Psa 52:7 Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.

As you can see, the scriptures warn against riches. It is not sinful to be rich, but there is a tendency for rich people to forget God and trust in their own abilities. Riches will tempt a man to sin and oppress the poor.

Poor people tend to look to God for help.

1 Tim 5:5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

There was no Social Security in bible days, a widow, especially if she had no children to help her, had a very difficult time surviving. She would trust and pray to God constantly to sustain her.

Psa10:14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.

So Amy, it is a theme of the scriptures that rich men tend to forget about God, while the poor and fatherless look to God.

Now, the point of my question. In the Calvinist view, being rich or poor should make no difference whatsoever. Most Calvinists believe that before a person was even born that God chose who would be saved and who would not. This is Unconditional Election, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the man himself. It doesn't matter if he is rich, poor, good, or evil. God makes his choice for whatever reason, but his reason is always outside the man.

Most Calvinists also believe in Irresistible Grace. If God has elected a man for whatever reason, he will effectually draw that man and he will irresistibly believe in Christ. It doesn't matter if he is rich, poor, good, or evil.

So, why would it be more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than a poor man? If God chooses whom he will, and irresistibly causes that person to believe, it would make no difference whether he were rich or poor. No difference whatsoever. If Calvinism is correct, it should be just as easy for a rich man to be saved as a poor man.

Do you understand the question now?

So why did Jesus say "How hardly (difficult) shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of heaven"?

 

It should make no difference whether a man is rich or poor, proud or humble in your system. If the man has been unconditionally elected, and if God irresistibly calls whom he has elected, that man should be saved just as easily as every other elect person.

In your system, salvation is completely outside the man himself. It doesn't matter if he is the richest and most evil person on earth, if God has elected him, he will irresistibly repent and believe in Jesus.

So, again, why did Jesus say it is difficult for a rich person to enter heaven?