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My answers in BOLD

 

Wow revmwc... I'm sure that no Calvinist has ever had to deal with THOSE arguments before. :smilewinkgrin:

 

It something how sure you get about things! I sure this debate has gone on for centuries and will until the Lord returns. Unless we have to come together to fight off persecution then this little debate will be just that a little issue.

 

You seem determined not to understand. It is not difficult for a rich man to save himself (elect or not), it is impossible for him, just as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. But praise be! It is not impossible for God to save him, for though he may try to resist, as I did for the longest time, God is stronger.

Steve

 

That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

 

Jesus never said it is difficult to save himself, that is your spin on what Christ is saying. You seem determined not to understand the point winman is making.

 

Doesn't Jesus' teaching regarding how we cannot serve two masters help understand the clear intent of this text?

Why did the rich young ruler turn and walk away after expressing a desire to follow Jesus? "Because he was a man of great means." He had a lot to loose. And when he considered the cost of 'building the tower and going to war' (being His disciple) he decided the cost was too high for him and he chose to walk away. That cannot be anymore clear.

When he was held up to the standard of perfection he fell short and we all know the only alternative is relying completely on God's grace, something those who are wealthy are less likely to do because of their own self-sufficiency and pride. I know because it takes one to know one.

 

so from mans perspective, it would be more difficult. But not from God's perspective. It may take more work to convict the lost sinner, but the difficultly comes form mans side. Once God regenerates the heart, the sinner will come.

From God's perspective, it's not more difficult. Nothing is really difficult with God.

Moot point. Jesus isn't talking about election here.

Again, you are arguing against hyper Calvinism and not Calvinism.

 

The "eye of the needle" mentioned in the Bible, was one of the many gates providing passage through Jerusalem's massive walls. The "Needle Gate" was used when the city's main gates were closed at night. It was designed for security so that enemies could not simply ride into the city. The gate was so small, that a rich man would have to unload his camel and then with great effort, lead his camel through –a slow & difficult process. Jesus likened the process to entering heaven: we must come to God stripped of all our importance –a seemingly impossible task until we realize with God, all things are possible.

This was taught to me in my teens as to what the "eye of the Needle" was in which Jesus refered. I understand it hasn't been proven that the needle gate even existed. but according to some it did. With great effort the Camel passed through the "Eye of Needle" and with great effort the rich man gives up on his worldly efforts and his worldly desires and accepts Christ as His saviour. What is difficult for man is very much Possible for God.

 

I think you must have misread Steve's words, Webdog. He didn't say that Jesus stated it is diffucult to save himself. He wrote (my emphasis)

It is not difficult for a rich man to save himself (elect or not), it is impossible for him, just as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
​

 

The camel must have free will if its hard for him to go through the eye of a needle because otherwise it would be a foregone conclusion he would go through. Anyone with me on this?

 

So, the camel had to be led through, one assumes he would never go through of his own accord, (whether an actual needle or this hypothesized "needle gate" which if it even existed was so small the Apostles wondered how anyone could be saved.)

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Camels are cantankerous in the extreme - but he would be dragged through that gate if need be, not just relinquished to his own devices.

Camels were something that was owned. They were livestock, they were beasts of burden. If the rich man is a camel, then who owns him.

 

But if a camel could actually go through some undiscovered gate called needle-eye then why did the disciples say it was impossible? Jesus probably then meant an actual threading needle. Maybe there were seamstresses nearby or something.

 

There being not one shred of evidence for an actual needle gate (newest presidential scandal perhaps?) points to the fact that Jesus was talking about a sewing needle -- and it is impossible for a camel to pass through that no matter what -- precisely His point...

 

I think everyone is making this much too difficult.

NNE, whether rich poor or middle class can save themselves. That is indeed impossible.

But, as Jesus just said one chapter earlier, "With faith all things are possible."

It is a given FACT according to scripture AND human experience that intelligent, successful, wealthy individuals often see religion and faith in God as a crutch and a weakness.

Of all people Calvinists should acknowledge this as one of their favorite proof texts says, "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

Now, the reason I reject that as a support verse for Calvinism is because on the one hand they claim election is "unconditional," and then they point to a verse which lists a condition (being weak) as proof. Are people chosen because they are weak or are the weak because they are chosen? It says he chooses the weak, which lends itself to suggest God chooses them based upon their weakness. ( i.e. "Humble yourselves and you will be exalted.")

 

If one takes the illustration of the needle gate whether it was real or just a story we see what Jesus meant. The Holy Spirit draws or leads all of us to salvation for without His conviction of our sinful state no one says Jesus is Lord. No one will profess Christ except the Spirit leads.

Jesus said He had to be lifted up so all men could drawn to Him.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

We are not the children of God if we are not led by the Spirit of God:
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The camel was led through the needle gate into the city.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

Jesus was saying that the rich can be saved but it is difficult to draw them away from the cares of the world. Just as we must give up the cares of the world.

 

Winman, if your logic is true, then the contra position ends up as Pelagian. I'm sure that you might want to modify your stance.

There ARE in fact nuances between hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism proper, just as there are between Pelagianism and some moderate position. Details matter. That's why we have the tenats of ordo salutis to explain the nuances between those details.



Romans 8:29–30 (ESV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified ...

Note that faith does not preceed foreknowing, nor does it preceed calling.

In the Reformed tradition, the ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

There literally is no "camp" for those of a "non" persuasion, for they deny that there is a logical order of salvation and their ultimate theology is incoherent.

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 26:18 (ESV)
18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Jude 24 (ESV) 24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Romans 5:9 (ESV) 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

 

Very succinctly and well put - maybe common knowledge to some, but thanks for the review.

Just another verse to throw into the mix that occurs to me:

(John 10:16) "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

So on the general subject of livestock animals (e.g camels), i.e. the property of the shepherd, here we have sheep yet again. And Christ alludes to other sheep, i.e. the Gentiles, even though at the time his mission was still exclusively to the Jews. But he considers the Gentiles who will believe to be already his sheep, even though as the verse states they have not even heard his voice yet - though they will according to the passage.

And this same passage emphasizes very strongly that all these sheep, even those who have not yet been called, are in fact the property of the shepherd. This is clear as it talks earlier about hired hands that do not care about the sheep.

 

Not at all. The "logical" end is filled with false premises. Please understand this. Taking something to the extreme isn't the same as taking something to the logical end. Why do you eat? Can you die before God let's you die? Why don't you jump off the empire state building. You can't die until it's time for you to die. See what happens when you take something to the extreme?