Dead to the Ten Commandments

[DaChaser1]

It is not exactly, as you say. Calvinists believe God saves people while they hate Him, and that God makes us born again first, THEN He causes us to believe in Him. That is not biblical.

you are reading afalse calvinism text book here for your source!

We believe that God enables the elect to come to Christ, that He enables them to have the faith required in order to be able to receive jesus and THE be born anew!

its not that God regenerates us at birth then years later place faith in jesus, as its the Holy spirit convicts us, enables us to be able to place faith in the Gospel of jesus when we hear it...

 

[Moriah]

you are reading afalse calvinism text book here for your source!

We believe that God enables the elect to come to Christ, that He enables them to have the faith required in order to be able to receive jesus and THE be born anew!

its not that God regenerates us at birth then years later place faith in jesus, as its the Holy spirit convicts us, enables us to be able to place faith in the Gospel of jesus when we hear it...

Now you have learned something about Calvinist beliefs that you did not know. Calvinists do believe that God saves people while they hate Him. Calvinists freely proclaim that, and even if they did not admit it, it is what their beliefs amount to.
We do not receive the Holy Spirit while we hate God. We receive God’s Spirit when we love God, see John 14.

 

[The Biblicist]

Calvinists do believe that God saves people while they hate Him.

People who naturally hate sin and love him do not need to be saved. However, no such human exists. The only kind of human that is born into this world are sinners. The only kind of person God saves are sinners. God saves his enemies ("when we were yet enemies...."). The only kind of humans born into this world are God's enemies (Eph. 2:2-3; Rom. 8:7-8) as only enemies need to be RECONCILED to God and obtain PEACE WITH GOD.

Regeneration is the creative work of God where light is created out of darkness (2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 4:18) and love for darkness is changed to hate for darkness and love for light replaces love for darkness - thus being a NEW CREATURE in Christ Jesus. Regeneration is God giving a believing heart (Deut. 29:4 with Ezek. 36:26-27).

 

[Moriah]

People who naturally hate sin and love him do not need to be saved. However, no such human exists.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

you are reading afalse calvinism text book here for your source!

We believe that God enables the elect to come to Christ, that He enables them to have the faith required in order to be able to receive jesus and THE be born anew!

its not that God regenerates us at birth then years later place faith in jesus, as its the Holy spirit convicts us, enables us to be able to place faith in the Gospel of jesus when we hear it...

GE:

Indeed Moriah is spreading untruth against the grace of God, here,

Moriah
“It is not exactly, as you say. Calvinists believe God saves people while they hate Him, and that God makes us born again first, THEN He causes us to believe in Him. That is not biblical.”

As you say, he reads a false, calvinism text book of his own here, for his source. For God does not "save people while they hate Him", but while they HATED Him, and WERE, "ENEMIES of God", to quote.

Because Calvinism first of all believes
the faith of God’s initiative and almighty intervention,
through first of all regeneration, that means to be born again,
and be, justified, and be, saved, and have, eternal life,
fully, unconditionally and irrevocably,
by and through God’s grace only;
and AT THE SAME TIME and
through the SAME ALIVE PROCESS
of God’s grace,
to have received faith,
faith in the all-sufficiency of God’s grace;
faith in that Salvation which is both
instantaneous “IN CHRIST” and “FOR us”,
but manifests in us and through us,
unprovoked, imprescriptibly and undeterred,
inexplicably and never fully understood or appreciated or appraised.

 

[Moriah]

GE:

Indeed Moriah is spreading untruth against the grace of God, here,

Moriah
“It is not exactly, as you say. Calvinists believe God saves people while they hate Him, and that God makes us born again first, THEN He causes us to believe in Him. That is not biblical.”

As you say, he reads a false, calvinism text book of his own here, for his source. For God does not "save people while they hate Him", but while they HATED Him, and WERE, "ENEMIES of God", to quote.

Because Calvinism first of all believes
the faith of God’s initiative and almighty intervention,
through first of all regeneration, that means to be born again,
and be, saved and have, eternal life,
fully, unconditionally and irrevocably,
by and through God’s grace only;
and AT THE SAME TIME and
through the SAME ALIVE PROCESS
of God’s grace,
to have received faith
in the all-sufficiency of God’s grace,
and that Salvation is both
instantaneous “IN CHRIST” and “FOR us”,
but manifests in us and through us,
unprovoked, imprescriptibly and undeterred,
inexplicably and never fully understood or appreciated or appraised.

I said nothing false about Calvinism. You have repeated it yourself here of what Calvinists believe.

 

[saturneptune]

I said nothing false about Calvinism. You have repeated it yourself here of what Calvinists believe.

Before you engage someone in a serious discussion about God's sovereignty and man's free will, learn the basics of the Gospel.

 

[DaChaser1]

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--

jesus was talking to his apostles here, NOT "wicked/unsaved" people !

 

[The Biblicist]

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--

Neither of these texts deal with natural born people who love God and seek to obey him!! Both of these verses deal with those already converted to Christ. He is not talking to NATURAL born humans but with those who have the Spirit of God "with" them individually already as born again persons but who will have the Holy Spirit "in" them corporately as a congregational house of God on the day of Pentecost and spiritual "body" of baptized believers. Do you know the difference between the "temple" in 1 Cor. 3:16 where the plural "you" is described as a singular "temple" and the "temple" in 1 Cor. 6:19 where the singular "you" is described as a singular "temple"???? I doubt it! Go learn the difference! Until you learn the difference you will be messed up and teach your false doctrines. Until you acknowledge Philippians 3:12-14 you will continue to teach your false doctrine of living above sin.

 

[DHK]

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--

You are attributing these verses to the unsaved. You are inferring that man is naturally good by quoting them. That is one of the tenets of Pelagianism. I will continue to point this out to you every time you post such passage or a similar post, so that you realize that I am not falsely accusing you.

If you are saved (I can only make that assumption for God alone knows the heart), then before you were saved you were an enemy of God, a criminal in his sight. There was nothing that you could do that was good. You would seek God as a robber would seek a police station. Your crimes against God were too many to count. They were heinous. You deserved an eternity in hell and justly so. There was absolutely nothing that you could do to appease God's wrath on you. You were the enemy of God. All that you did were as filthy rags before him. Nothing you did could please him. You were a criminal in his sight.

You could not love God. You could not obey Him. It would have been impossible for you, the criminal, the enemy of God to do so. There was no good in you.
Since you don't accept all of this, it makes you a Pelagian.

 

[Moriah]

jesus was talking to his apostles here, NOT "wicked/unsaved" people !

How do you think what you say changes what Jesus said?

 

[Moriah]

Do you know the difference between the "temple" in 1 Cor. 3:16 where the plural "you" is described as a singular "temple" and the "temple" in 1 Cor. 6:19 where the singular "you" is described as a singular "temple"???? I doubt it! Go learn the difference!.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Neither of these texts deal with natural born people who love God and seek to obey him!!

What are you trying to say? Jesus says, “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” If they do not love Jesus, then they will not do what he commands.

Both of these verses deal with those already converted to Christ. He is not talking to NATURAL born humans but with those who have the Spirit of God "with" them individually already as born again persons but who will have the Holy Spirit "in" them corporately as a congregational house of God on the day of Pentecost and spiritual "body" of baptized believers.

According to what you are saying, if what you say is correct and disproves what I said, then Jesus would never need to say to them “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” Not only that, to further disprove your logic, Judas was chosen by Jesus and lived among the Holy Spirit, yet he was not born again.

 

[Moriah]

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

You are attributing these verses to the unsaved.

These people do not yet have the Holy Spirit. These people will not receive the Holy Spirit unless they obey Jesus’ teachings.

You are inferring that man is naturally good by quoting them.

I have no idea what you are saying.

That is one of the tenets of Pelagianism. I will continue to point this out to you every time you post such passage or a similar post, so that you realize that I am not falsely accusing you.

I have no idea what you are saying. You said I am inferring that man is naturally good by quoting them. I quoted Jesus.

If you are saved (I can only make that assumption for God alone knows the heart), then before you were saved you were an enemy of God, a criminal in his sight. There was nothing that you could do that was good. You would seek God as a robber would seek a police station.

Jesus died for my sins already before he saved me. When I sought God, through Jesus, I did right. You say seeking God is the same as a robber seeking a police station? I do not see this teaching anywhere in the Bible. God says to seek Him. You say it is as a robber seeking a police station!

Your crimes against God were too many to count. They were heinous. You deserved an eternity in hell and justly so. There was absolutely nothing that you could do to appease God's wrath on you. You were the enemy of God. All that you did were as filthy rags before him. Nothing you did could please him. You were a criminal in his sight.

You are using the scripture about filthy rags incorrectly again. To wait on God is not as a filthy rag. To remember God’s ways are not as filthy rags.
In addition, as I already told you, Jesus died for my sins before I came to him.

You could not love God. You could not obey Him. It would have been impossible for you, the criminal, the enemy of God to do so. There was no good in you.

I got Jesus’ teachings. I obeyed what Jesus said. Jesus says that means I love him. Jesus saved me and gave me the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

These verses spoke Jesus to his disciples. He was not speaking to the unsaved. This is important to note and remember. They have no application to the unsaved whatsoever.

These people do not yet have the Holy Spirit. These people will not receive the Holy Spirit unless they obey Jesus’ teachings.

That is not true. What you are teaching is a message of works instead of a gospel of grace by faith. IOW, your message is more akin to Hinduism or Islam. But salvation is by faith. We are saved by faith; not by obeying God.

I have no idea what you are saying.

You quoted these verses:

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever

Then you state that the unsaved man must obey them in order to be saved. The conclusion is that all men are basically good because all men are able to keep the commandments of Jesus even though they are not saved.
The natural man cannot obey Christ, Moriah. It is impossible for him to do so. You are teaching humanism--the basic goodness of man.

I have no idea what you are saying. You said I am inferring that man is naturally good by quoting them. I quoted Jesus.

Yes, you quote the words of Jesus and then assume that those words--directed to the disciples of Jesus, apply also to the unsaved. Can the unsaved obey the commands of Jesus, those same commands given to his disciples? No. Only if one assumes that they are basically good and have no sin nature whatsoever. That is where your Pelagianism comes in. You believe the unsaved man can obey the commands of Jesus. But he can't.

Jesus died for my sins already before he saved me. When I sought God, through Jesus, I did right. You say seeking God is the same as a robber seeking a police station? I do not see this teaching anywhere in the Bible. God says to seek Him. You say it is as a robber seeking a police station!

Unless the Holy Spirit is involved all seeking is in vain.
Do you believe that a person can be saved without the Holy Spirit?

You are using the scripture about filthy rags incorrectly again. To wait on God is not as a filthy rag. To remember God’s ways are not as filthy rags.
In addition, as I already told you, Jesus died for my sins before I came to him.

You are confused.
1. A person cannot "wait upon God" if they are unsaved. How can a criminal before God, an enemy of God "wait on God"? That is impossible. That is like saying: why not let the convicts in the prison be the President's servants? Good suggestion, Moriah! Prisoners and enemies don't serve the king. They are enemies. They cannot "wait" upon God. Not until they are saved are they able to do that. Not until they are saved do they have any access to God whatsoever. They are alienated from God, totally separated from him. All their works are as filthy rags.

Christ died for your sins long ago, but his sacrifice was not efficacious for you until you believed.

I got Jesus’ teachings. I obeyed what Jesus said. Jesus says that means I love him. Jesus saved me and gave me the Holy Spirit.

Did you save yourself or did Jesus save you?
There must be conviction of the Holy Spirit before salvation.
The Holy Spirit is given at the time of salvation, not after.
You were a criminal in the sight of God before salvation and impossible of love toward him. It was also therefore impossible for you to obey him. You could not have done that without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

John 16:8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment;

 

[Moriah]

These verses spoke Jesus to his disciples. He was not speaking to the unsaved. This is important to note and remember. They have no application to the unsaved whatsoever.

Do you think Judas was saved?

That is not true. What you are teaching is a message of works instead of a gospel of grace by faith. IOW, your message is more akin to Hinduism or Islam. But salvation is by faith. We are saved by faith; not by obeying God.

Jesus plainly tells us that he will give us the Holy Spirit if we love him. Jesus says those who have his teachings and obey them are the ones who love him. You have a problem with the Word of God. You are suggesting that it is okay to sin. It is never okay to sin.

You quoted these verses:
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever
Then you state that the unsaved man must obey them in order to be saved. The conclusion is that all men are basically good because all men are able to keep the commandments of Jesus even though they are not saved.

Are you telling me, that people can be saved and not have the Holy Spirit? That is what you are saying. Those to whom Jesus said “if you love me, you will obey what I command,” those people did not yet receive the Holy Spirit, and they would not receive the Holy Spirit unless they obey.

The natural man cannot obey Christ, Moriah. It is impossible for him to do so. You are teaching humanism--the basic goodness of man.

I am teaching the word of God. I am trying to show others how they can love God. I am teaching others to obey God. You are teaching Total Depravity. Total Depravity is nowhere in the Bible, it is a manufactured belief.

Yes, you quote the words of Jesus and then assume that those words--directed to the disciples of Jesus, apply also to the unsaved. Can the unsaved obey the commands of Jesus, those same commands given to his disciples? No. Only if one assumes that they are basically good and have no sin nature whatsoever. That is where your Pelagianism comes in. You believe the unsaved man can obey the commands of Jesus. But he can't.

Are you saying only saved people get married? If you get Jesus’ teachings, and read sex is between a married man and woman, are you saying, it is impossible to get married in order to obey. If you get Jesus’ teachings, and you read that all are sinners, are you saying it is impossible to admit to being a sinner unless you are already saved? If you get Jesus’ teachings, and you read that you must forgive your brother, are you telling me it is impossible to forgive your brother unless you are saved?

Unless the Holy Spirit is involved all seeking is in vain.
Do you believe that a person can be saved without the Holy Spirit?

That is what you need to answer. From what you say about the disciples, being saved and born again before Jesus gave them his Spirit, then you must admit that is what you believe.

You are confused.
1. A person cannot "wait upon God" if they are unsaved. How can a criminal before God, an enemy of God "wait on God"? That is impossible.

The Bible says, “for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13. The Bible says the unsaved can call on the Lord! You say it is impossible, but I have shown you scripture.

That is like saying: why not let the convicts in the prison be the President's servants? Good suggestion, Moriah! Prisoners and enemies don't serve the king. They are enemies. They cannot "wait" upon God. Not until they are saved are they able to do that. Not until they are saved do they have any access to God whatsoever. They are alienated from God, totally separated from him. All their works are as filthy rags.

You keep using the scripture about filthy rags incorrectly. Not only that, please do not use your wisdom to explain to me what is spiritual. Just use the scriptures.

Christ died for your sins long ago, but his sacrifice was not efficacious for you until you believed.

Jesus died for me while I was a sinner. Do you get that?

Did you save yourself or did Jesus save you?
There must be conviction of the Holy Spirit before salvation.

Jesus saves people.

The Holy Spirit is given at the time of salvation, not after.

So then, Jesus disciples were not yet saved in John 14, according to your beliefs.
So then, why did you say Jesus’ disciples were all saved before they received the Holy Spirit? In addition, how can you say all of Jesus’ disciples were all saved and born again, Judas was a traitor.

You were a criminal in the sight of God before salvation and impossible of love toward him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
I gave you scripture that God died for me when I was God’s enemy. Now you show scripture that says it is impossible to love God before I receive the Holy Spirit. Remember, Jesus says we receive the Holy Spirit when we love God! I have given you scripture; you will not be able to give scripture contradicting the Word of God.

It was also therefore impossible for you to obey him. You could not have done that without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said we receive the Holy Spirit after we obey. Show scripture that says the opposite of that. You cannot.

 

[DaChaser1]

How do you think what you say changes what Jesus said?

He was speaking to people who were able to now love God, and who could be able to live for Him , as they would receive the Holy Spirt at pentacost and gain power to live for Christ!

ALL that you are referring to is to saved peoples, so cannot also apply to wards unsaved!

 

[DHK]

How do you think what you say changes what Jesus said?

The commands that Jesus spoke were to saved individuals. You cannot see that makes a difference? Go and do a Bible Study with your pastor. You need more teaching.

Here is another command from Jesus:
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

It is called the Great Commission, the last command that Christ gave his disciples before ascending up into heaven. Do you also expect the unsaved to carry out this command as well?

 

[Moriah]

He was speaking to people who were able to now love God, and who could be able to live for Him , as they would receive the Holy Spirt at pentacost and gain power to live for Christ!

ALL that you are referring to is to saved peoples, so cannot also apply to wards unsaved!

No matter how you try to cut it, the fact is that they would get the Holy Spirit when they obeyed. Therefore, why you think you can get the Holy Spirit for not obeying is beyond me.

 

[Moriah]

The commands that Jesus spoke were to saved individuals. You cannot see that makes a difference? Go and do a Bible Study with your pastor. You need more teaching.

Here is another command from Jesus:
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

It is called the Great Commission, the last command that Christ gave his disciples before ascending up into heaven. Do you also expect the unsaved to carry out this command as well?

Maybe you should stop listening to your Pastor.

Why did you not reply to all the questions and comments I gave to you from your post to me? You must have a hard time with your theory.

Jesus said they would receive the Holy Spirit when they obey.

Here is another scripture that you and your Pastor can ignore.


Acts 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men! 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Did you see that? No? Are you able to see?

 

[The Biblicist]

No matter how you try to cut it, the fact is that they would get the Holy Spirit when they obeyed. Therefore, why you think you can get the Holy Spirit for not obeying is beyond me.

The Holy Spirit comes to persons for a varity of reasons. He comes upon even lost people to empower them to perform a certain task. Cyrus is an example of this in Isaiah. He comes upon saved people to empower them, and this is what being "filled" with the Spirit is about or to "walk" in the Spirit.

He comes to regenerate and indwell the elect. He comes experientially in blessings upon his people when they are obedient giving them the sense of his presence.

He comes upon "the house of God" in shikinah glory publicly accrediting it as the PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP. He did this with the tabernacle (Ex. 40). He did this with the temple (1 Kgn 7). He did this with the congregation of Christ (Acts 2:1-2) who were all previously saved and individually were all born again believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is the difference between 1 Cor. 3:16 (the plural "you" as the congregational temple - 1 Pet. 2:5) as the temple of the Holy Spirit versus 1 Cor. 6:19 and the individual believer as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

In John 14-17 he is promising the Holy Spirit to the new "house of God" or the congregation of Christ as the public house of worship which was publicly accredited by the shikinah glory as the prevous houses of God in Exodus 40 and the temple of Solomon. Hence, you are confusing obedience of already Spirit indwelt saved people as the new house of God and the coming public accreditation by the Spirit of God upon them as a plural "you" but one "house of God" or "temple" or public house of worship with regeneration of individuals by the Spirit of God. This obedience is by those already Spirit indwelt. They were to obey Christ's directions to remain in Jerusalem because the promise of public accreditation as the new "house of God" would not be many days hence (Acts 1:5) on the day of Pentecost. On the Day of Pentecost the new house of God received the public accredition as the public house of God and thus indwelling of the Spirit of God as promised by Christ in John 14-16 and they were obedient by remaining in Jerualem until God performed His promise. The evidence of the Spirit indwelt "house of God" is that it is the "pillar and ground of the truth" or the faith once delivered containing the essentials of salvation and service.