Dead to the Ten Commandments

[DHK]

You are wrong. That scripture does say the Holy Spirit is given to them when they obey. It does say that. Acts 5:32 also says that.

You say we repent after we are already saved; however, that is not what the Bible says.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Did you see that? Peter says they will receive the Holy Spirit after they repent.

Notice how many Scriptures you use from the Book of Acts. The Oneness Pentecostal do the same thing. They used to post here, but because of their denial of the trinity they are not allowed any more. However, when challenged to give the gospel message outside of the Book of Acts they could not do it. They couldn't do it just using the Book of Romans, or all of the epistles put together. They had to use the Book of Acts. Their reason--the Book of Acts is the only book where they can eisigete the necessity of speaking in tongues as a requirement for salvation. That is heresy of course.

The point is, that the Book of Acts is a history book, a book of transition, a book that tells us of the "acts of the apostles." It is not primarily a book of doctrine.
The book of Romans is a book on salvation. That is the theme of the book.
The first epistle of Corinthians states very succinctly the gospel in 1Cor.15:1-4.

In Acts 2:38, Peter addresses Jews, in fact he addresses the very Jews that crucified Christ. It is a unique situation. The message is given on the Day of Pentecost. Though repentance is needed I believe that the repentance in that verse could be directly referring to repenting specifically of crucifying Christ.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
--This is what these Jews were specifically guilty of. They had crucified Christ. The very crowd that just a few days ago cried out: "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!" were standing there that day. Peter was telling them that they needed to repent, and specifically repent of crucifying Christ.
--His message sounds much like John the Baptist. It was a message of repentance, and for good reason.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Did you see that? Repent, and turn to God. This scripture does not say God has already saved them.

No, repentance comes before salvation. But repentance is unto God in the NT.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

This marks a new chapter in the history of the church. "Now God has granted repentance to the Gentiles." The gospel was now going out to the other nations. In Acts 2 it went to the Jews. In Acts 8 it went to the Samaritans. Now it is starting to go to all the world. The book of Acts is a history book. Repentance is unto God, as this verse indicates. It is before salvation.

Did you see that? The scripture says, "Repentance unto life." Repentance unto life, not life unto repentance. Repentance leads to life.

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

So far so good.

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Note carefully that good works follow repentance and salvation. It is not obey and then get saved; it is get saved and then obey; then do good works. Their salvation was proved by their works.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Did you see that? "Repentance that leads to salvation." Not "Salvation that leads to repentance."

This verse has nothing to do with salvation. The entire passage is addressed to Christians. Christians need to repent of sin. But Christians have eternal life and are not in danger of losing their salvation. The word "salvation" also means "deliverance." The passage refers back to 1Cor.5:1-5 when a man committed a very immoral act, and Paul instructs them to excommunicate such a one. "Excommunicate" is the word we use. He says "deliver such a one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh." The ultimate purpose in such discipline is for repentance and restoration. The man did repent. But now it was difficult for the church to accept him back again. This is the problem that Paul was addressing.

The man had godly sorrow. It was such godly sorrow that it led to salvation (not spiritual salvation), but deliverance, deliverance from the sin that he had repented from. He would never fall back into such immorality again. God had delivered him (saved him) from that sin. He is speaking of Christians, for only Christians can have Godly sorrow, as he contrasts this godly sorrow to the sorrow of the world. IOW, the passage has nothing to do with salvation.

Now use the epistles to find how to lead a person to Christ, how to present the gospel, not simply the book of Acts. The epistles present doctrine; Acts presents history.

 

[The Biblicist]

They go right back at it? Right back at the sin?

No, they go right back at resisting sin. True Christians are born again and they sin more than they want to.

Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 By standing firm you will gain life.

The term salvation has a past, present and future application that deals with different aspects. In contexts where faithfulness and/or physical harm is the context, and that is the context of all the above passages, this aspect of salvation deals with the daily life and how it is "saved" by "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:17) or making it count for the glory of God and saving it in forms of rewards (1 Cor. 3:11-15). The past tense deals with regeneration/conversion. The future tense deals with the salvation of our bodies.

Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--

Again, you are assuming that these verses deal with obtaining entrance into heaven when they deal with rewards or what we reap for faithfulness in heaven.

 

[The Biblicist]

You need to read the next scripture! 1 John 3:3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
Did you see that?

I don't disagree with that. I only referred to the first two verses because it shows that at the resurrection we will be raised like him rather than becoming like him AT or AFTER the judgement.

Where do you get that I said we overcome sin at the resurrection?

You asked me if the only time we overcome sin is when we are glorified. I am just saying that overcoming sin in glorification is not something we do but it is something done to us by Christ - He does it alone without our active participation.

Our reward is eternal life. You cannot dismiss that fact.

The "works" are PLURAL and the "rewards" are equivilent to our works. Yes, rewards IN heaven and IN hell will be eternal.

Of course, we are resurrected first. You have no legitimate argument against what I said. When we are raised and judged on our works, we will be judged on our works. Just because we receive resurrected bodies does not mean we will not be judged on our works.

It does mean that we will not be judged about entering heaven or hell by our works because we are already GLORIFEID and SINLESS before we even stand before the lord to be judged according to our works. It means that our works do not determine glorificaiton or heaven but only rewards IN heaven.

 

[Moriah]

Originally Posted by Moriah
You are wrong. That scripture does say the Holy Spirit is given to them when they obey. It does say that. Acts 5:32 also says that. You say we repent after we are already saved; however, that is not what the Bible says.Acts 2:38
I understand this to be "life" obtained judicially by justification not regenerative life by the Holy Spirit. Regeneration and justification are not one and the same thing. Regeneration imparts eternal life to my person. However, justification imputes eternal life legally to my position before God. Repentance unto life refers to life obtained LEGALLY before God through faith in Christ.

You will not be justified, nor regenerated unless you believe and obey.

[
I know I need to lay a better foundation for you to understand what I mean. Think of it this way. When you transgress the law of God that is sin and when you sin you come under the condemnation of the Law which is ETERNAL DEATH. The verdict of the law is ETERNAL DEATH. When you are justified by faith the verdict of the law is changed from ETERNAL DEATH to ETERNAL LIFE. Repentance and faith are inseparable and when you are justified by faith - justification is a legal term that declares you are legally removed from under the condemnation of eternal death and to the legal approbation of eternal life. Hence, when we are born of the Spirit we obtain eternal life by Spiritual union with God. However, by faith we obtain judicial eternal life through justification. The former has to do with new birth and our own person while the latter has to do with justification and our position in Christ before God.

Even demons believe that there is one God. You have to believe and confess.

[
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Did you see that? Peter says they will receive the Holy Spirit after they repent.
My understanding of the "gift" is the sign gifts or manifestation of the Holy Spirit that drew the crowds to hear Peter and the apostles and the manifestations of the Spirit he immediately goes on to explain in the very next verse, if you will continue to read the next verse. He is referring back to the sign gifts spoken of by Joel promised to the Jews who receive Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the gift.

[
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Did you see that? Repent, and turn to God. This scripture does not say God has already saved them.

My understanding of this text is the millennial kingdom promised by the Prophets. When Israel receives the Christ the kingdom of God on earth will be ushered in. However, they rejected Christ as a nation but they will as a nation come to him at His return (Rom. 11:25-26).

You do not understand the scriptures in Romans 11:25-26. Paul is explaining that even though it may seem like God cut off the Jews forever, that that is not the case at all. All Israel will be saved means that true believers (which are the true Israel) will also have true believers who are Jewish.

[
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
Did you see that? The scripture says, "Repentance unto life." Repentance unto life, not life unto repentance. Repentance leads to life.
I answered this above - legal and positional life by justification.

I do not find such talk in the Bible. You have no legal positional life by justification unless you believe and confess.

[
Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
This text does not support your position.

You say we have nothing to do with the turning. The scriptures tell you we must turn to God. You said only those already saved and regenerated can have repentance; however, this scripture and the others show you that we turn to God in repentance and have faith in Jesus.

[
Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
I believe that true salvation (repentance and faith in the gospel or obedience to the gospel) is demonstrated by our works - Eph. 2:10. However, he is not saying they must do this IN ORDER to be saved.

The point here was to show you another scripture that clearly says we repent and we turn to God.

[
2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Did you see that? "Repentance that leads to salvation." Not "Salvation that leads to repentance."
I don't believe that repentance leads to salvation (justification by faith) but I do not believe that repentance leads to regeneration.

You do not believe the Word of God then. The Word of God says repentance that leads to salvation.

[
Let me explain. The term "salvation" is a huge umbrella term that includes many different aspects of salvation. It includes past tense, present tense and future tense salvation. It includes election, regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification. So one cannot loosely use the term "salvation" without defining what aspect the context is expressly speaking about. In 2 Cor. 7:10 I believe the term "salvation" refers to that aspect of salvaiton called justificaiton not regeneration.

Your many words and definitions do not change the Truth. You will have none of it unless you believe and confess.

[
However, I believe that regeneration occurs simeltaneneous with repentance as it is the power for repentance.

I know you believe that. That is from the doctrine of total depravity. There is no such thing in the Bible. I have shown you many scriptures that tell you repent to salvation.

 

[Moriah]

Notice how many Scriptures you use from the Book of Acts. The Oneness Pentecostal do the same thing. They used to post here, but because of their denial of the trinity they are not allowed any more. However, when challenged to give the gospel message outside of the Book of Acts they could not do it. They couldn't do it just using the Book of Romans, or all of the epistles put together. They had to use the Book of Acts. Their reason--the Book of Acts is the only book where they can eisigete the necessity of speaking in tongues as a requirement for salvation. That is heresy of course.

There is no reason to try to give the gospel message outside of the Book of Acts. I gave scriptures from the 2 Corinthians saying repentance unto life, but you say it is about those already saved. If you believe all the epistles, are about those who are already saved, then is that why you would like me to try to prove becoming saved from them so that you can say they are already saved and it does not count?

The point is, that the Book of Acts is a history book, a book of transition, a book that tells us of the "acts of the apostles." It is not primarily a book of doctrine.

The Book of Acts is the Word of God. The Book of Acts speaks much about becoming a Christian. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to leave out scripture from the Book of Acts.

The book of Romans is a book on salvation. That is the theme of the book.

I can prove to you that the unsaved can call on the name of the Lord. I can prove to you that to believe and to confess are things one must do before Jesus saves them. Will you believe then that the unsaved can call on Jesus? Will you believe then that we must believe and confess first?
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Before you say these scriptures are about staying saved and not becoming saved, read on.
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

The first epistle of Corinthians states very succinctly the gospel in 1Cor.15:1-4.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you . Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Did you see that? “If you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

In Acts 2:38, Peter addresses Jews, in fact he addresses the very Jews that crucified Christ. It is a unique situation. The message is given on the Day of Pentecost. Though repentance is needed I believe that the repentance in that verse could be directly referring to repenting specifically of crucifying Christ.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
--This is what these Jews were specifically guilty of. They had crucified Christ. The very crowd that just a few days ago cried out: "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!" were standing there that day. Peter was telling them that they needed to repent, and specifically repent of crucifying Christ.
--His message sounds much like John the Baptist. It was a message of repentance, and for good reason.

No, repenting because of Jesus being crucified is not the only reason one would have to repent. There is no basis for that belief. You bring up John the Baptist, it was repentance for good reason all right, and take note that it was for all kinds of sins and evil deeds. John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80). We are still to confess that we are sinners, and to repent, to prepare the way for Jesus Christ into our lives.

No, repentance comes before salvation. But repentance is unto God in the NT.

Repentance is unto God is about being saved by God.

This marks a new chapter in the history of the church. "Now God has granted repentance to the Gentiles." The gospel was now going out to the other nations. In Acts 2 it went to the Jews. In Acts 8 it went to the Samaritans. Now it is starting to go to all the world. The book of Acts is a history book. Repentance is unto God, as this verse indicates. It is before salvation.
So far so good.
Note carefully that good works follow repentance and salvation. It is not obey and then get saved; it is get saved and then obey; then do good works. Their salvation was proved by their works.

We are to believe and confess before we are saved. We are to believe and confess after we are saved. You say, “Their salvation was proved by their works,” then do you admit that if they had no works they were not really saved?

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
This verse has nothing to do with salvation. The entire passage is addressed to Christians. Christians need to repent of sin.

2 Corinthians 7:10 is about being saved. The kind of repentance Paul speaks about is the kind that saves in the first place, and it is the kind of repentance one should have throughout their salvation if they sin.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Now use the epistles to find how to lead a person to Christ, how to present the gospel, not simply the book of Acts. The epistles present doctrine; Acts presents history.

Again, there is nothing wrong with using Acts to show how one is saved. I have used Corinthians and Romans now to show you.

 

[The Biblicist]

You will not be justified, nor regenerated unless you believe and obey.

You are teaching works for salvation and the Bible clearly denies that! The only kind of obedience that brings eternal life is HEART obedience, or submission of the heart to the gospel and that is repentance and faith. - "with the heart man beleiveth..."

Even demons believe that there is one God. You have to believe and confess.

Demons do both - they believe and many times in the gospels they confessed that Jesus was the Son of God. Were they saved? By your definition they must have been because they both beleived and confessed! However, they were never born again were they? There is no such thing as conversion to the gospel (repentance and faith) apart from regeneration. 1 John 5:1 uses the present tense "is" to show that new birth and beleif are simeltaneous actions. However, the Greek text uses the Perfect tense for begotten and the present tense for "believeth."

The Holy Spirit is the gift.

Look at the next verse and he says what he is referring to is "the promise." The "promise" he is referring to is what he introduced the sermon with:

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

You do not understand the scriptures in Romans 11:25-26. Paul is explaining that even though it may seem like God cut off the Jews forever, that that is not the case at all. All Israel will be saved means that true believers (which are the true Israel) will also have true believers who are Jewish.

Look at the context! It is what has been "cut off" that is grafted back in "again." The "remnant" was never cut off. What was cut off was Israel as a Nation. That is what is grafted back in again. He never cut of "the jews" as Paul was a Jew and all the early congregation at Jerusalem were Jews and God kept on saving Jews throughout the New Testament period - He never "cut off" the Jews. He cut of Israel as a nation. It is what was "cut off" that is grafted back "again." The church is never called "Jacob" (Rom. 11:26). What is grafted back in again is what has rejected the gospel and was now a "enemy" of the gospel "for your sakes (Gentiles).

I do not find such talk in the Bible. You have no legal positional life by justification unless you believe and confess.

You do find the word "justification" in the Bible and you do find the word "born again" in the Bible. You simply do not understand what they are or how they differ from each other when it comes to IMPARTATION of eternal life and IMPUTATION of eternal life. You don't understand that "justification" is a LEGAL term that deals with the VERDICT in a court of law while "born again" is a term that deals with birth. One deals with your PERSON while the other deals with your POSITION. You simply have not been taught the basics of these two aspects of salvation.

You say we have nothing to do with the turning

Wrong! We must turn from sin to Christ in order to be justified but God is the one doing the turning or from whence the POWER to turn comes from (regenreation) and they are simletaneous but in a cause and effect relationship.

You do not believe the Word of God then. The Word of God says repentance that leads to salvation.

the word "don't" was mistakenly placed in the first phrase. What I meant and what I ought to have said was:

I believe that repentance leads to salvation (justification by faith) but I do not believe that repentance leads to regeneration.

 

[Moriah]

You are teaching works for salvation and the Bible clearly denies that! The only kind of obedience that brings eternal life is HEART obedience, or submission of the heart to the gospel and that is repentance and faith. - "with the heart man beleiveth..."

We have to believe and confess. That is what the Bible says.

Demons do both - they believe and many times in the gospels they confessed that Jesus was the Son of God. Were they saved? By your definition they must have been because they both beleived and confessed! However, they were never born again were they?

Are you saying they confessed their sins and turned from them?

There is no such thing as conversion to the gospel (repentance and faith) apart from regeneration. 1 John 5:1 uses the present tense "is" to show that new birth and beleif are simeltaneous actions. However, the Greek text uses the Perfect tense for begotten and the present tense for "believeth."

Tell me, do you think Jesus saved you the first time you believed in Jesus? Tell me why or why not. This is a very important question. After you answer the question, then I want to continue with some other questions to follow this with.

Look at the next verse and he says what he is referring to is "the promise." The "promise" he is referring to is what he introduced the sermon with: 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

How does what you say here mean that we do not have to believe and confess first? How does what you quote here mean we do not have to call on the name of the Lord first? All who call on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved NOT ARE ALREADY SAVED.

Look at the context! It is what has been "cut off" that is grafted back in "again." The "remnant" was never cut off. What was cut off was Israel as a Nation.

Where do you get that I thought the remnant was cut off? Those cut off were unbelievers, not the remnant. Apostle Paul says God can graft them back in, if they do not persist in unbelief.

That is what is grafted back in again. He never cut of "the jews" as Paul was a Jew and all the early congregation at Jerusalem were Jews and God kept on saving Jews throughout the New Testament period - He never "cut off" the Jews. He cut of Israel as a nation.

What do you think you are explaining? Do you think one day all of Israel, each person who is an Israeli will be saved one day, and just because they are Israeli? The Bible says not many Israelis will be saved. The Bible says not all who are from Israel are Israel. Therefore, it could not mean all Israelis will be saved, but true Israel will be saved, which will include Jews. True believers are Israel, no matter what ethnicity. Paul is telling us that the Jews will not be hardened and cut off forever, even though it might have seemed like it at the time.

It is what was "cut off" that is grafted back "again." The church is never called "Jacob" (Rom. 11:26). What is grafted back in again is what has rejected the gospel and was now a "enemy" of the gospel "for your sakes (Gentiles).

Why would you say the church is never called Jacob? Jews will not be hardened forever, that is what the scriptures In Romans 11 is telling us.

You do find the word "justification" in the Bible and you do find the word "born again" in the Bible. You simply do not understand what they are or how they differ from each other when it comes to IMPARTATION of eternal life and IMPUTATION of eternal life. You don't understand that "justification" is a LEGAL term that deals with the VERDICT in a court of law while "born again" is a term that deals with birth. One deals with your PERSON while the other deals with your POSITION. You simply have not been taught the basics of these two aspects of salvation.

You must believe in Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit. You must have the Holy Spirit to have justification and to be born again. None of your teachings can get around that. You will not be justified and born again without first believing in Jesus and having a heart that God accepts.

Wrong! We must turn from sin to Christ in order to be justified but God is the one doing the turning or from whence the POWER to turn comes from (regenreation) and they are simletaneous but in a cause and effect relationship.

Why the people who believe in total depravity want to keep telling me I am wrong when I explain total depravity, then turn around and explain total depravity as I just did is beyond me. Do not say I am wrong. Read again, what I said, and you will see that I am talking about what you explained!

the word "don't" was mistakenly placed in the first phrase. What I meant and what I ought to have said was:
I believe that repentance leads to salvation (justification by faith) but I do not believe that repentance leads to regeneration.

Justification and regeneration happen after we receive the Holy Spirit. What do you mean you believe that repentance leads to salvation? Are you now admitting that we have to believe and repent before we are saved? To be saved means to receive the Holy Spirit, do you agree with that? On the other hand, are you of the belief that one can be saved and not yet have the Holy Spirit? There is something I am considering and praying about lately, is there a chance that people can be saved and not receive the Holy Spirit in a powerful way? Read Paul’s prayer to the Ephesians in 1:17-19. In addition, read the prayer to the Ephesians in 3:14-19. Consider also Acts 8:15. One the other hand, could it be that people can believe but not receive the Holy Spirit until God accepts them? I think that is it! Even just saying you believe is not enough. God who knows what is in our hearts will give us His Spirit when He accepts us. Read Ephesians 1:1-19! Read Ephesians 3:14-19! Read Acts 8:15! Read Acts 5:32! Read Luke 11:13! Acts 8:17 and Acts19:6!

 

[savedbymercy]

distortion of the Truth !

bib

In regard to the gospel of Jesus Christ faith is "IN" the promised gospel provision thus RECEIVING it or EMBRACING the promise by faith alone.

What provision ? God given Faith receives the Knoweldge of a Reality that exists, their Justification and Righteousness before God, because of Christ's Work. That provision talk is unscriptural. Thats in line with the offer of salvation lie.

For Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things Not seen. Spiritual Realities !

What Faith receives in the Born Again Man or Woman is a Existing Reality, before unknown, of a Righteous Standing before God based upon the Merits of Christ alone. This Reality existed in the mind of God before one comes to know about it by God Given Faith !

The only kind of obedience that brings eternal life is HEART obedience, or submission of the heart to the gospel and that is repentance and faith. - "with the heart man beleiveth..."

Thats Works, Heart Obedience to the Gospel is not even possible unless its performed by an Already Saved Spiritual Creation.

Because, the Natural man cannot submit to the law of God, the Command of God to Believe Rom 8:7-8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The word subject here is the greek word hypotassō and it means to:


to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject

It cannot obey or submit to God's Law. The word Law is the Greek word nomos and means:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

a) of any law whatsoever

Now , to believe on Christ to be saved is a Gospel Command, a Imperative in the Greek, See Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

A Unsaved man cannot and is not subject to the Law of God !

So you are distorting the Truth. In Fact Christ's One act of Obedience gives Eternal Life to all His Members. Rom 5:18-19

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



What provision ? God given Faith receives the Knoweldge of a Reality that exists, their Justification and Righteousness before God, because of Christ's Work. That provision talk is unscriptural. Thats in line with the offer of salvation lie.
.

The Atonement of Christ cannot be divorced or isolated from either God's Purpose or God's application and that is exactly what you are doing.

They stand as a unit - God purposed redemption for the elect, Christ provided redemption for the elect - hence "provision" and God applies redemption to the elect and he does it by regeneration/conversion.

Any talk of God actually saving, glorifying, etc. people by His purpose apart from both provision and application is error.

Any talk of Christ justifying, saving, glorifying etc. people by the atonement apart from either God's purpose (which determines design) or God's application is error.

Both provision and application are merely the carrying out of God's Purpose in time and space.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

The Atonement of Christ cannot be divorced or isolated from either God's Purpose or God's application and that is exactly what you are doing.

Who said it could, and no that is not what I am doing. You are using a unscriptural term, provision. If by provision you include Divine Application of the benefits of the Cross, then state that ! otherwise it appears that you are stating provision as in made available, which is false !

They stand as a unit - God purposed redemption for the elect, Christ provided redemption for the elect - hence "provision" and God applies redemption to the elect and he does it by regeneration/conversion.

Agreed

Any talk of God actually saving, glorifying, etc. people by His purpose apart from both provision and application is error.

Yes saving and conversion which are the same, along with Glorification do require the actual physical existence of the elect, but not Justification. That is an immanent act in the Mind of God concerning their Legal Status before Him based on Christ's Work. They do not have to have existed for God to declare that in His own Mind ! Yes, they need to exist for it to be declared in their mind, but that is only a enlightenment to what is already True with God.

Any talk of Christ justifying, saving, glorifying etc. people by the atonement apart from either God's purpose (which determines design) or God's application is error.

Justification should not be included here, that is Justification before God, the Atonement settled that with God before they were even born. Like i said, The Resurrection of Christ is evidence that All for whom Christ died has been Justified from all things pertaining to God's Law and Justice [Rom 4:25], you deny that, you deny the Cross of Christ, no wiggle room !

Both provision and application are merely the carrying out of God's Purpose in time and space.

Agree, but not Justification before God. Yes Salvation as in Conversion is 2 Thess 2:13 and Glorification in the Day of Redemption is, because it requires the Redemption of the Body Rom 8:23 because those are subjective experiences that are fruits of Christ's Death, and there is also a subjective Justification involved with that, but that aspect of Justification follows upon that which God already declared in His Own Mind of them based upon Christ's Death alone ! You err right here ! And its a damnable error !

However, your conscience is seared by demonic doctrines and there is no turning you from your error.

Likewise, you will not be able to believe the Truth, for God has determined that many shall believe a Lie 2 Thess 2:11 ! But you will be held accountable for it in the Day Of Judgment !

 

[The Biblicist]

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Yes saving and conversion which are the same, along with Glorification do require the actual physical existence of the elect, but not Justification.

Is justified separated and isolated from any other aspect listed in Romans 8:30?


Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

No! You have no right to isolate it from the rest either, but you do because of your false system of doctrine.

 

[savedbymercy]

Redeemed from the curse of the Law !


All for whom Christ died, whether they know of it or not, by His Death alone, they've been delivered from the curse of the Law, for He was made a curse for them Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

" redeemed from" the curse of the Law. The word from ek and means:

out of, from, by, away from

There is no way anyone for whom Christ died can be cursed by the Law, which gives strength to sin, no sin can be charged against them.

Now if Christ's Death alone hath done this, then how can any sin condemn anyone Christ died for. 1 Cor 15:56

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Sin can only bring condemnation through or by means of God's violated Law Rom 4:15

15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So there cannot be any Law to violate, to cause trespass or transgression to bring about God's Wrath, to those Christ, by His Death hath redeemed from the curse of the Law,in which the law worketh wrath; but there is no broken and violated Law to cause God's wrath to those Christ died for.

So those experiencing God's Wrath in Jn 3:36 and Rom 1:18, most certainly cannot be anyone Christ died for, because by His Death alone, He redeemed them from the curse of the Law, a man's believing does not accomplish that, if it did, then it does something that Christ death did not do, which is Blasphemy !

This being redeemed from the curse of the law, is a once and for all completed act by Christ's Blood, and is not contingent upon any other future conditions !

 

[savedbymercy]

Is justified separated and isolated from any other aspect listed in Romans 8:30?


Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

No! You have no right to isolate it from the rest either, but you do because of your false system of doctrine.

There Is Justification after the Call in Time, thats Subjective, the Call is Subjective in time by the Gospel !

But Justification before God based upon the Death of Christ is objective. Everyone Christ died for, when He arose from the Dead, He arose Justified from their Sins, meaning they were Justified before God, if not He would not have risen from the dead !

For you to deny this Declaration of Justifcation of the Elect by the Resurrection of Christ, you deny the Cross, that is no light matter, you will give an account for your opposition to that Truth !

Its impossible for any sinner who Christ died for, and rose again, its impossible for them to be not Justified before God, ever !

 

[The Biblicist]

Is justified separated and isolated from any other aspect listed in Romans 8:30?


Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

No! You have no right to isolate it from the rest either, but you do because of your false system of doctrine.

Paul says we are "children of wrath even as others." Wrath is the consequence of condemnation. There can be no wrath where there is first no condemnation as the just basis for wrath. We cannot be "children of wrath even as others" if we are not first under condemnation because wrath requires first to be under condemnation or else the wrath is unjust.

This is just common sense but false doctine is based upon perverted scriptures and the consequence is irrationality rather than common sense.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Paul says we are "children of wrath even as others."

I know that, I have commented on that earlier, try reading the thread and remembering. That does not change what the Cross done ! Rom 4:25

You deny the Justification of the Elect evidenced by the resurrection you deny the Cross, a serious offence !

 

[The Biblicist]

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I know that, I have commented on that earlier, try reading the thread and remembering. That does not change what the Cross done ! Rom 4:25

You deny the Justification of the Elect evidenced by the resurrection you deny the Cross, a serious offence !

It is impossible for a Just God to regard anyone to be "children of WRATH" by NATURE if they are not under condemnation as only CONDEMNATION can JUSTIFY God for regarding them as children of wrath "BY NATURE."

This means they were not previously Justified before God and you cannot separate "justified" in Romans 8:30 from either "called" or "glorified" as you are forced to do to justify your doctrine.

They are children of wrath BY NATURE because they came into this world CONDEMNED as UNBELIEVERS (Jn. 3:17-19) with a nature that characterized them additionally as "children of DISOBEDIENCE" and thus "EVEN AS OTHERS" - the non-elect.

The atonement of Christ justified them through the Holy Spirit ("unto salvation THROUGH the sanctification of the Spirit) regenerative faith (AND belief of the truth) - 2 Thes. 2:13 when they were effectually called by the gospel (2 Thes. 2:14). That is how the atonement justified them and that is how God justified them.

The Purpose of God is carried out through redemption through the Holy Spirit application - rather than your compartmentalized, isolated division of God's redemption isolated from application. The atonement did not justify anyone in and of itself, isolated from either God's Purpose or God's application - that is simply hogwash!

 

[savedbymercy]

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It is impossible for a Just God to regard anyone to be "children of WRATH" by NATURE if they are not under condemnation

Thats a lie, being children of wrath by nature is nothing more than being sinners by nature, enemies by nature.

Now , even while the elect are enemies by nature, while they are by nature children of wrath, they nevertheless have been objectively reconciled to God the Father by the Death of His Son ! Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This word reconciled, in the aorist past tense, means:

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

The Elect have been objectively received into Divine Favor while they are children of wrath by Nature. For Christ has bore their sins against the law, He has satisfied law and Justice on their behalf with God, the Resurrection evidences it Rom 4:25.

You flat out deny the scriptures and the Merits of the Death of Christ Godward for the Elect He died for ! That is antichrist as you can get !

There is no way the elect as the children of wrath by nature are ever under God's Wrath, in fact they are the Vessels of His mercy and favor in that condition !

 

[The Biblicist]

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Thats a lie, being children of wrath by nature is nothing more than being sinners by nature, enemies by nature.

You don't even realize the very illustrations you are using condemn your very argument! God cannot regard anyone as a "sinner" apart from being CONDEMNED under law as such. God cannot regard anyone as an "enemy" apart from being CONDEMNED under law as such.

Most importantly it is at the point of regeneration/justification that the elect are NO LONGER regared or classified by God as "sinners" but are called "saints" and no longer regarded as "enemies" but reconciled! So your very illustrations condemn your doctrine as false.

 

[savedbymercy]

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You don't even realize the very illustrations you are using condemn your very argument!

You do not realize that you are opposing the Truth, and discrediting the Value and Worth of Christ's Death to God !

God cannot regard anyone as a "sinner" apart from being CONDEMNED under law as such.

Thats a Lie, a Saint is a sinner saved by Grace ! Paul calls himself a sinner after conversion 1 Tim 1:15

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

God cannot regard anyone as an "enemy" apart from being CONDEMNED under law as such.

Thats another a Lie, The Elect while enemies have had the Law against them satisfied, all of its Righteous Demands have been met by the Body of Christ, while they are children of wrath as others. You teach against what Christ's Death has accomplished !

Everyone for whom Christ died is dead to the Law, How ? By the Body of Christ Rom 7:4

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

You have no business Preaching Christ, you do not even know what Christ accomplished !

 

[The Biblicist]

Q

a Saint is a sinner saved by Grace ! Paul calls himself a sinner after conversion 1 Tim 1:15

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

That is Paul's description of himself but God does not address saints as such or regard their present relationship to him as such.

Yes, a saint is a sinner saved by Grace but nowhere does God address them or describe them as "enemies" or "sinners" in regard to their relationship or standing with Him. That is why Paul places "enemies" in the past tense not the present tense "WERE enemies" (Rom 5) and "WERE...children of wrath.....children of disobedience."

The Elect while enemies have had the Law against them satisfied, all of its Righteous Demands have been met by the Body of Christ, while they are children of wrath as others. You teach against what Christ's Death has accomplished !

Absolutely false! Show one scripture where anyone but lost elect are called "enemies"???? Scripture always uses this term for a PAST pre-regenerated description - always!

The only "enemies" in regard to the elect are those in a LOST condition NEVER in a saved condition - NEVER! Regenerated/justified elect are RECONCILED and cannot be called "enemies."

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Read what it says!!! "ARE BECOME" not "ALREADY WERE"! If can't read you have no business trying to teach the Bible.