Ye must be born again 2

[savedbymercy]

steaver

A person is not born again by any decision of the will.

I agree, but why did you not make any comments on posts 286 and 289 ? Do you understand the point I am conveying there ?

 

[savedbymercy]

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God !



Rom 8:8

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jn 3:6

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Folks its the New Man, the One Born out of Incorruptible Seed 1 Pet 1:23 that pleases God and Believes on Christ because of Salvation. The Man we are by the Flesh, the Natural Man cannot please God Rom 8:7-8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who reject New Birth before Faith, they do have a insurmountable difficulty to deal with, of course they cannot without wresting scripture to their own destruction. They that are in the Flesh [never been born again] cannot please God.

The mind of the Flesh [one not born again] is enmity to God and not subject to the Law of God. The word law here is the greek word nomos and means:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

a) of any law whatsoever

1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God

a) by the observance of which is approved of God

2) a precept or injunction

And to Believe on Jesus Christ is a command , a imperative in scripture. We know this by Acts 16:30-31

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Now the word believe here is a imperative in the greek, a command.

We know it also in 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now scripture says the man born of the flesh is not subject to the Law or Command of God ! The word subject in Rom 8:7 is the greek word hypotassō and means:


to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject

Those born of the flesh only cannot obey God's command to Believe, it is impossible !

Does believing on Christ please God ? Yes it does, but the Natural man cannot do it. The Man born only of the flesh has not that ability to believe on Christ to the saving of the soul as its stated in Heb 10:39

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The only ones that can do that are those who have been born of the Spirit, who have been born out of that incorruptible seed. Those of you therefore that teach that the unregenerate man, one merely born by natural birth in the flesh, that they can please God and obey the command to believe on Christ and be saved Acts 16:31, you are liars and no truth is in you. You contradict the Truth !

 

[billwald]

But the rest of the chapter teaches that the Holy Spirit goes where she will and regenerates whom she will. God has not given us a list of the elect.

 

[savedbymercy]

To be born again means that another you must be born, but this time out of a Incorruptible Seed. The Natural Life of the Elect came out of Corruptible seed, that is of Adam, but now, if we are to be saved, one must be born out of a Incorruptible Seed 1 Pet 1:23. Again, the Life the Elect had in Adam and developed and manifest in time was of a corruptible seed, however to be born again a second time of incorruptible seed, one must have Life already existing in the Incorruptible Seed, as they had Life already existing [in seed substance] in the corruptible seed. The Incorruptible Seed is the Word of God, the Logos, who is Jesus Christ. In order to be born out of the Logos, we must have had a seed substance In Him, a Life existence in Christ, as we did in adam.

So Jesus also in His discourse with nicodemus was informing him, unless a man has a seminal existence in Him, the Living Word, that Incorruptible Seed, they shall not see or enter into the Kingdom of God.

Folks the Spiritual Birth that John writes about in Jn 3 is no way related to the flesh, or any activity of the flesh, its origin is out of whole different realm Jn 3:6a, and what is really insane these days is that the false teaching of a Spiritual Birth is the product of a decision of a man of flesh, the natural mans freewill, in contradiction to Jn 1:13.

The Antichrist followers will always contradict scripture to promote their lies against the Truth, but they shall soon answer to God in the Judgment !

 

[DaChaser1]

To be born again means that another you must be born, but this time out of a Incorruptible Seed. The Natural Life of the Elect came out of Corruptible seed, that is of Adam, but now, if we are to be saved, one must be born out of a Incorruptible Seed 1 Pet 1:23. Again, the Life the Elect had in Adam and developed and manifest in time was of a corruptible seed, however to be born again a second time of incorruptible seed, one must have Life already existing in the Incorruptible Seed, as they had Life already existing [in seed substance] in the corruptible seed. The Incorruptible Seed is the Word of God, the Logos, who is Jesus Christ. In order to be born out of the Logos, we must have had a seed substance In Him, a Life existence in Christ, as we did in adam.

So Jesus also in His discourse with nicodemus was informing him, unless a man has a seminal existence in Him, the Living Word, that Incorruptible Seed, they shall not see or enter into the Kingdom of God.

Folks the Spiritual Birth that John writes about in Jn 3 is no way related to the flesh, or any activity of the flesh, its origin is out of whole different realm Jn 3:6a, and what is really insane these days is that the false teaching of a Spiritual Birth is the product of a decision of a man of flesh, the natural mans freewill, in contradiction to Jn 1:13.

The Antichrist followers will always contradict scripture to promote their lies against the Truth, but they shall soon answer to God in the Judgment !

Do you hold that we are born as sinners , and that we must place faith in jesus to become saved and reconciled back by God?

Do you hold that Jesus was eternally God, no beginning or end, and that He is both natures of God/Man in one body now?

 

[steaver]

steaver



I agree, but why did you not make any comments on posts 286 and 289 ? Do you understand the point I am conveying there ?

I went and read these post, I don't see any disagreement with them.

I guess we differ at this point, you believe God regenerates a person without any decision made by such person, niether by the mind nor by the heart.

I believe God regenerates a person, solely by His will mind you, but only after such a person believes the gospel preached unto them and thus having asked for that living water to be part of their life. (John 4)

 

[savedbymercy]

steave

I believe God regenerates a person, solely by His will mind you, but only after such a person believes the gospel preached unto them

Then you believe a dead man did something for God to give them spiritual life. Thats works. Regeneration is New Birth.

You also believe something that is quite contrary to scripture, and that is the Natural Man in the flesh was able to obey God and Please Him. :

Boasting about Believing !



Those in error preach and believe today that sinful, spiritually dead, unregenerate sinners, has the ability to believe on Christ; however this is a lie, one which scripture does not teach, in fact it is said of some that they could not believe, even in light of many miracles Jn 12:39,38

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Thats because the Arm of the Lord had not been revealed to them vs 38

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Mans ability to believe on the Lord is a lie against the Truth, if this were so or true, then the natural man, the carnal man, the man of flesh can do something spiritually that pleases God Heb 11:6, but in the flesh man cannot please God Rom 8:8

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unregenerate man cannot or does not have the ability to please God, which believing on Christ does please God. Being in the flesh is antithesis to being born of the Spirit Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

There is no in between, one is either born of the Spirit or not ! So consequently the flesh cannot [without ability] to obey God's Commands, which one is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 16:30-31

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The word believe here is in the greek an imperative which is:

The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.

That this command is something that pleases God cannot be denied 1 Jn 3:22-23


22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Anyone therefore teaching that man, the unregenerate man, the man not born of the Spirit can believe on Christ Savingly, a Spiritual Act, they are decivers, they lie against the Truth. That even goes for myself ! If me or anyone teaches that, we are Liars !

 

[steaver]

Then you believe a dead man did something for God to give them spiritual life. Thats works. Regeneration is New Birth.

Believing is not doing some meriting work for God, that is silly. Can't argue with silliness.

Anyone therefore teaching that man, the unregenerate man, the man not born of the Spirit can believe on Christ Savingly, a Spiritual Act, they are decivers, they lie against the Truth. That even goes for myself ! If me or anyone teaches that, we are Liars

Abraham believed God and it pleased God. Abraham was not regenerated for no one was until after Jesus Christ was glorified (John 7:38-39). OT saints waited in Paradise until the glorification of Jesus Christ and then Jesus led captivity captive. Since no one can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven except ye be born again, these OT saints in Paradise had to wait for the spiritual rebirth which qualified them to leave Paradise and enter into heaven with Jesus.

I don't think you should be calling Jesus and the Apostles liars. Careful how you declare yourself all knowing when it comes to rightly dividing the word of truth.

Tell us SBM, is there a doctrine that you hold which you believe might be or could be in error? Any? Even one? Or, maybe your doctrinal beliefs are perfect. Maybe you are the exception to the rule that we see things in part. Since you believe that your doctrinal beliefs are perfect, then I guess you will not be having any wood hay or stubble burning at the judgment seat of Christ.

My stated belief above concerning regeneration and the glorification of Jesus Christ could be in error, however, I stand by it and if it goes poof at the Refiners fire I will certainly understand and accept my loss.

And I will not call you a liar for standing by what you believe concerning TULIP, afterall, you are my brother and I love you just the same. I have many good TULIP believing friends and we get along just fine.

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver

Believing is not doing some meriting work for God,

Thats what you make it. Believing is something man does, a keeping of a commandment. If you keep a commandment and become a new creature, then thats works !

Abraham believed God and it pleased God.

Same thing goes for Abraham

Abraham was not regenerated

Yes He was !

for no one was until after Jesus Christ was glorified (John 7:38-39).

That scripture does not say no one was born again until after Jesus was glorified. When Jesus was Glorified, He returned back to the Glory He had before !

I don't think you should be calling Jesus and the Apostles liars.

Show me where I called Jesus and the Apostle's Liars ? Thats a False accusation. It is you who has done that.

You state that you pleased God as a unregenerate man in the flesh by believing on Christ. The Apostle Paul wrote under inspiration Rom 8:7-8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now who is calling God a Liar ? You said you pleased God in the Flesh since you were not born again before you believe. You are saying that in the flesh you were subject to the Law of God or the Command of God. To Believe on Christ is a command a Imperative. In Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The word believe here is the greek word Pisteuo a verb and its a Imperative :

Imperative
The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.

The word Law in Rom 8:7 is the greek word nomos :

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

So you say you did something that God said a unregenerate man cannot do, congratulations, you proved God wrong !

 

[savedbymercy]

That New Man !



Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The New Man, that New Entity that was born out of Christ, that Incorruptible Seed 1 Pet 1:23, that Man had an existence[seed substance] in Christ Jesus before the world began. The Lord Jesus Christ had a Mediatoral Existence in the Form of God before He became in the form of a servant Phil 2:5-6

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

As Mediator before Creation He was in the form of God, He was the Man Christ Jesus 1 Tim 2:5, as such He had in Him that New Man in Seed substance, as Adam had in Him the Elects Old Man in Seed substance. The elect had their seed substance existence prior to and before their seed substance and earthly birth in Adam, before their Natural Birth from their parents, and before their New Birth out of Christ 1 Pet 1:23. Now this seed substance Life was not any type of developed life, but a seed substance Life in the Word of God, for John writes of it here Jn 1:4

4 In him[The Word] was life; and the life was the light of men.

Yes, this life had spiritual light with it !

This seed substance Life is also comparable to how Levi, being yet unborn and undeveloped , yet had a seed substance Life God says in the Loins of His Great Grand Father Abraham Heb 7:9-10

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Later this Levitical Priesthood Life was made manifest in its ordained generation.

In like manner, the Life that the Elect had in Christ before the world began, is made manifest by its Birth into a New Man and a Spiritual Priesthood. However before that could happen there had to be an existence a Union in Christ as His Seed Substance, had to be Chosen In Him before the foundation of the world ! If not, we can never become that New Man of Eph 4:24 or Col 3:10

 

[steaver]

Thats what you make it. Believing is something man does, a keeping of a commandment. If you keep a commandment and become a new creature, then thats works !

Are you sure about that? I believe TULIP teaches that one's believing is the result of God, not something man does.

That scripture does not say no one was born again until after Jesus was glorified. When Jesus was Glorified, He returned back to the Glory He had before !

You should take the time to read it before you respond. Here it is....

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

We see this fact re-enforced by Jesus after His glorification here...

"And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" (John 20:12)

Moreover, Jesus explained to the woman at the well....

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water" (John 4:10)

In this one statement, we see the way of salvation in a nutshell.

1) knowing the gift of God (Eternal life)

2) know Whom it is that can give eternal life (Jesus Christ)

3) ask

4) Jesus gives the Living Water (Holy Spirit Rebirth)

It's all very clearly written, cannot really deny the obvious unless you go out of your way to.

Show me where I called Jesus and the Apostle's Liars ? Thats a False accusation. It is you who has done that.

SBM-Anyone therefore teaching that man, the unregenerate man, the man not born of the Spirit can believe on Christ Savingly, a Spiritual Act, they are decivers, they lie against the Truth. That even goes for myself ! If me or anyone teaches that, we are Liars !

Anyone pretty much covers anyone, even Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver asked :

Are you sure about that?

Yes. Believing is something man is commanded to do to be saved. Acts 16:30-31

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You do not believe that ?

 

[DHK]

steaver asked :



Yes. Believing is something man is commanded to do to be saved. Acts 16:30-31

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You do not believe that ?

Belief is not a work. You have been shown that through the Scriptures over and over again and yet refuse to believe the Bible. Why?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What is so hard about the above verse to understand and believe?

 

[steaver]

steaver asked :



Yes. Believing is something man is commanded to do to be saved. Acts 16:30-31

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You do not believe that ?

So then you believe and therefore you have saved yourself.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Belief is not a work

It is a work, it is something man does, its keeping a commandment.

 

[DHK]

dhk



It is a work, it is something man does, its keeping a commandment.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What is so hard about the above verse to understand and believe?

 

[steaver]

Belief is not a work. You have been shown that through the Scriptures over and over again and yet refuse to believe the Bible. Why?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What is so hard about the above verse to understand and believe?

Amen! Here we have works and belief taught as polar opposites. Why do you keep saying believing is a work of man SBM???

 

[savedbymercy]

So then you believe and therefore you have saved yourself.

Why ask me that ? Did I say I saved myself ? If anything you have insinuated that. You claim when you believed you became Born Again. You did something no other man born of the flesh can do. No other man of the flesh pleased God except steaver, congats on that !

 

[steaver]

Why ask me that ? Did I say I saved myself ? If anything you have insinuated that. You claim when you believed you became Born Again. You did something no other man born of the flesh can do. No other man of the flesh pleased God except steaver, congats on that !

No, when I believed I ASKED Jesus to save me and He gave me the Holy Spirit rebirth. (John 4:10)

 

[savedbymercy]

No, when I believed I ASKED Jesus to save me and He gave me the Holy Spirit rebirth. (John 4:10)

Believing is a command in scripture, something commanded to do. What you are saying is not scriptural. Acts 16:31 Does Paul say anything about asking Jesus a question ?

You stated that you as a natural man of the flesh did something Apostolic Authority states a Natural man cannot do Rom 8:7-8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Since you were not already born again, then you were in the flesh when you pleased God Correct ? Since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.