Please prove this. I've never heard of it before (which of course doesn't make it wrong.)
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Heavenly Incentives with Earthly Images
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
This is an interesting thread.
As some will doubtless know, the word translated 'crown' by the KJV in all the verses quoted is Stephanos which means a crown or garland (see Rev 12:1 NKJV) of victory. Stephanoi were the wreaths or garlands presented to the victors at Greek games. There is another word, diadema which means a 'kingly' crown (Rev 12:3; 13:1; 19:12).
So the crowns spoken of in the verses Tom talked about have the sense prizes or rewards. So what does Paul mean in 1 Thes 2:19? I think it's helpful to look at 1Cor 3:11-15. Here Paul says that there is no other foundation that one can build on but Christ. If one does not believe in His Deity, pre-existence, dual nature (God-Man), incarnation, atoning death, resurrection, ascension etc. then one is not a Christian. However, one can build on the foundation of Christ with true and helpful teaching- gold, silver etc.- or with erroneous doctrines - wood, hay, straw.
So what would be the evidence that Paul's teaching was gold rather than stubble- that he had discharged his commission faithfully? What else but these Thessalonian believers standing firmly and faithfully for the Lord? They were the proof that he had not run his course in vain (Gal 2:2). It is in that sense, I think, that they were his crown or garland of rejoicing when he contemplated the Lord returning in glory and standing in His presence.
Steve
As some will doubtless know, the word translated 'crown' by the KJV in all the verses quoted is Stephanos which means a crown or garland (see Rev 12:1 NKJV) of victory. Stephanoi were the wreaths or garlands presented to the victors at Greek games. There is another word, diadema which means a 'kingly' crown (Rev 12:3; 13:1; 19:12).
So the crowns spoken of in the verses Tom talked about have the sense prizes or rewards. So what does Paul mean in 1 Thes 2:19? I think it's helpful to look at 1Cor 3:11-15. Here Paul says that there is no other foundation that one can build on but Christ. If one does not believe in His Deity, pre-existence, dual nature (God-Man), incarnation, atoning death, resurrection, ascension etc. then one is not a Christian. However, one can build on the foundation of Christ with true and helpful teaching- gold, silver etc.- or with erroneous doctrines - wood, hay, straw.
So what would be the evidence that Paul's teaching was gold rather than stubble- that he had discharged his commission faithfully? What else but these Thessalonian believers standing firmly and faithfully for the Lord? They were the proof that he had not run his course in vain (Gal 2:2). It is in that sense, I think, that they were his crown or garland of rejoicing when he contemplated the Lord returning in glory and standing in His presence.
Steve
John, I have a question for you, what does "rewarder" in Heb 11:6 refer to?
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This word has caused me some confusion in the past, because it seems to imply that eternal life is earned. I am not saying that, I believe we are saved without works through faith. Still, this word has confused me somewhat.
I think the crowns as well as the house in 2C5 are all metaphor's of eternal life as well as some others that are used. That eternal life will come from having been given the Holy Spirit. By the Holy Spirit we will at the resurrection be springing up into everlasting life.
I also think along with being given the Holy Spirit which will being us eternal life comes responsibility to use those gifts which came along with that Spirit to work for God. As in Luke 19:11-26 those who worked for God with the gifts from him and increased, at the appearing of Jesus, receive greater rewards ie responsibility in the coming kingdom of God.
Those who though the faith have come to God and diligently seek him by their working for him will be given the greater reward.
The Greek word here is misthapodotes, "a giver of rewards," occurring only here in the NT. Interestingly enough, it is a compound consisting of the two most common words in the NT for "reward"--misthos (wages or reward) and apodidomi, a verb for "to give a reward."
I don't think this verse is about etenal life at all. The context both before and after is about OT believers who proved their faith by their works, such as Enoch in v. 5 who had a "testimony that he pleased God" (not a statement of salvation).
I'm not completely opposed to viewing the crowns as metaphorical, but given the meaning of the word the crowns (as Martin Marprelate pointed out) they must be some kind of reward. So I fail to see how they can mean eternal life. Simply because a word is a metaphor in the NT, you can't change the core meaning. "Crowns" in the NT are a reward. Eternal life is not.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. :thumbs:
Well, if you are a mid-Acts (12-out) dispensationalist, then we can only get crowns 1 and 2. The Jewish "Kingdom Saints" can only get crowns 3 and 4.
If you are an Acts 28 dispensationalist, then we can only get crown 2. The Jewish "Kingdom Saints" can get crowns 3 and 4. Crown 2 might be for Gentiles "grafted into" Israel before the "dispensation of grace" began in Acts 28, or it might be for both the Jewish and those in-grafted Gentile "Kingdom Saints." I am not quite sure.
Asterisktom you state "These are actually different names for the same reward - etrnal life - just described different ways. Or are we to assume that there will be some gloomy, inglorious Christians who have crowns 2 and 3, but lack 1 and 4?
To speak of a Crown of [fill in the blank] is just a way for the bible to describe our reward under different aspects. This is a common mode of expression in the Bible."
Paul says this:
1 Cotinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This makes it very clear the rewards are not synonomous with our eternal life. Paul makes it clear in verse 15 that some believers rewrds will be consumed by fire and yet "they shall be saved yet so as through the fire".
when we face Christ at the Bema Seat Judgement we will receive our reward for service. This is not at the Great White Throne which follows Christ reign on earth as King on Davids throne as John shows us in Revelation.
2 Corithians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
We receive rewards for what we do in this body whether it be good or bad (Gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay , stubble). That is for the Believer Paul is refering to "we" Believers and facing the Judment Seat (Bema) of Christ. We do not see this in:
Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
This is the judgement of all unbelievers notice verse 15 "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" that is what the Great White Throne is all about, the judging of the unbeliever and they receive eternal condemantion.
Therefore these are two different events and two different places in time. The rewards are real and are eternal, however one thing else we see about them,
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
These 24 elders have their rewards and throw them at the feet of Jesus. Intersting that those who don't hold to Pre-Tirb, Pre-Mil view miss that these 24 Elders have crowns (rewards) and Paul says those come at the Judgement seat of Christ.
1. Crown of rejoicing (1st Thess. 2:19) This is the soul winners crown, hopefully every believer will gain this one.
2. Crown of righteousness (2nd Tim. 4:8) This is for the believers who are looking for His return at the snatching away of the chruch.
3. Crown of life (James 1:12) For those who endure tempatations or trials and for those who love Him through them,.
4. Crown of glory (1st Peter 5:4) The Pastors Crown for the Pastor who stands firm in the truth of God's word and feeds that truth to the flock.
5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
5. Crown of Joy (Phillipians 4:1) For standing firm in the Lord standing firm in the faith also seen in 1 Corinthains 9:25 also know as the incorruptible crown for those who strive for mastery or as Phillipians says standing firm in the faith.
2. Crown of righteousness (2nd Tim. 4:8) This is for the believers who are looking for His return at the snatching away of the chruch.
3. Crown of life (James 1:12) For those who endure tempatations or trials and for those who love Him through them,.
4. Crown of glory (1st Peter 5:4) The Pastors Crown for the Pastor who stands firm in the truth of God's word and feeds that truth to the flock.
5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
5. Crown of Joy (Phillipians 4:1) For standing firm in the Lord standing firm in the faith also seen in 1 Corinthains 9:25 also know as the incorruptible crown for those who strive for mastery or as Phillipians says standing firm in the faith.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Salvation, eternal life, that he should not see death!
Well, maybe you are right?
Um, Enoch went to Heaven because he was already saved. This is not referring to his salvation. The death he did not see was physical death, which happens to all. His faith as a believer is what got him "translated," taken to Heaven alive, something that has happened to no one else but Elijah. Unless you think you have the faith to have the same thing happen....:smilewinkgrin:
convicted1
Guest
Brother John, I have always viewed Enoch translation as him being given his new body as he was called out to be with the Lord. No flesh will glory in His presence.
Do you know anyone else who holds this view?
I've not made any detailed studies of Enoch, but I think your interpretion is a valid possibility. The word for "translated" in Heb. 11:5 is only used 3 times in the NT, all in Hebrews. In 12:2 it just means "removed" but in 7:12 it indicates a change which might include a new body in 11:5.
but the just shall live by his faith. OT H2:4
The just shall live by faith. NT R1:17
Would you say live in this context is temporal or eternal?
Would you agree that faith is faith or are there different kinds of faith? Was the faith related to Abraham the same faith related to us today?
Two more questions. "The just shall live by faith." by Paul twice and the writer of Hebrews once. Were they quoting Hab 2:4? If yes why do you think they left out "his"?
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convicted1
Guest
Could this mean he tasted physical death when he was translated? I think the death that Enoch did not taste was eternal death, but when he got his new body, his flesh man did die in the translation(changed from physical to spiritual). Understand what I am trying to convey?
ETA: If you don't respond to this post, I'll hafta give you a "hassan chop"....
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I would say impossible and here is why.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which is in heaven.
The only explanation I have ever heard concerning that verse relative to Enoch and Elijah is that they did not bodily ascend. Now you are giving Enoch a body to ascent with.
However now you have to reconcile that thought with, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,(die) but we shall all be changed'.
convicted1
Guest
When Enoch was translated by God, where did he go?
When he was translated, what happened to his physical body?
convicted1
Guest
This is concerning the saved when Jesus returns in the Cloud to gather His children. This has nothing to do with Enoch's translation, IMHHo. IOW, it's "non-sequitor".
First we know Enoch surely did not go to Heaven for Jeuss said in John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So at the time Jesus was on earth noone had asceneded to Heaven, this goes back to a few post we have had on Paradise and Abraham's bosom and where they were at the time Jesus was teaching.