Are Mormons Biblical Christians?

[steaver]

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[WestminsterMan]

snip...

I urge you (anyone reading this, not ChristianLady1978 in particular) not to rely on some supposed "second chance" after death to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. The bible knows nothing of such a "second chance" - if you look at the context of 1 Peter 3.18-19, you must see that it is addressed to people who already are Christians. It is vitally important to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in this life

It is my understanding that Purgatory isn't a second chance at Heaven - those in Purgatory are Christians who have some sin(s) on their souls that need to be cleansed. They're going to heaven but not before those sins are purged. Those sent to hell have no escape. Just for the record...

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is my understanding that Purgatory isn't a second chance at Heaven - those in Purgatory are Christians who have some sin(s) on their souls that need to be cleansed. They're going to heaven but not before those sins are purged. Those sent to hell have no escape. Just for the record...

WM

Kind of. Purgatory is the final sanctification before heaven. It is not a place of second chance. No one goes to purgatory to end up in hell. The only people in purgatory are those destined for heaven. The idea is like this. Nothing corrupt can be in God's presence. There are those things that you would not necissarily consider sin but aren't subject to God for instance I like watching too much TV or being unable to discipline my eating habits and there for it isn't submitted to God (thus are known as venial sins but many of these protestants wouldn't consider sin) but that kind of thinking needs to be purged from myself entirely. Thus when I die I come face to face with the presence of God's which is a burning presence and my attachment to those things are burned away as in a refiners fire.

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[annsni]

But Jesus clearly said that He and His Father are one. Who is His Father? And in Romans 8:9 the Holy Spirit is referred to as both "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ":

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.​

In that case, why did He say in John 10:15:

“I lay down My life for the sheep.”?​

Later on in that same chapter, in verses 26 and 27, Hew says to a group of Jews:

26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” ​

I have just looked at the verses you mention, but I cannot see where they say that there are "three different levels of Heaven". Those verses say:

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.​

I urge you (anyone reading this, not ChristianLady1978 in particular) not to rely on some supposed "second chance" after death to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. The bible knows nothing of such a "second chance" - if you look at the context of 1 Peter 3.18-19, you must see that it is addressed to people who already are Christians. It is vitally important to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in this life

Amen David. Very good words.

 

[David Lamb]

It is my understanding that Purgatory isn't a second chance at Heaven - those in Purgatory are Christians who have some sin(s) on their souls that need to be cleansed. They're going to heaven but not before those sins are purged. Those sent to hell have no escape. Just for the record...

WM

I must apologise if you thought I was giving a definition of purgatory. I don't believe in purgatory, but I know that people who believe in such a place would define it much as you do. No, I was answering ChristianLady1978, who had written (my emphasis):

I believe in Purgatory/Spirit Prison where the unsaved will go after death and have the opportunity to hear the gospel one final time (I Peter 3:18-19).​

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I must apologise if you thought I was giving a definition of purgatory. I don't believe in purgatory, but I know that people who believe in such a place would define it much as you do. No, I was answering ChristianLady1978, who had written (my emphasis):

I believe in Purgatory/Spirit Prison where the unsaved will go after death and have the opportunity to hear the gospel one final time (I Peter 3:18-19).​

It is clear Christianlady1978 does not understand the theology behind purgatory. There is no second chance. If you do not come to Jesus in this life there are no other chances.

 

[DHK]

It is clear Christianlady1978 does not understand the theology behind purgatory. There is no second chance. If you do not come to Jesus in this life there are no other chances.

Don't offer RCC myth. If you can't find Purgatory in the Bible; it isn't true.
And we know it isn't in the Bible.

"For it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment." (Heb.9:27)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Don't offer RCC myth. If you can't find that in the Bible it isn't true.
And we know it isn't in the Bible.

"For it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment." (Heb.9:27)

You aren't clear. What myth do you refer too? Are you suggesting that there is no second chances after this life is a myth? Or Are you suggesting that there is no purgation after this life? Or are you suggesting God isn't a consuming fire?

for our “God is a consuming fire - Heb 12:29

Or are you suggesting that what we do isn't tested by fire after death?

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:13-15

Maybe you believe that our faith isn't proven at the coming of Jesus Christ

7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
-1 Pet 1:6-7

Mabye you don't believe people are saved - Snatched out of the fire?

save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[a]-jude 1:23

Maybe you don't believe in a purgation

counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. - Rev 3:19

So which is it that you consider myth? Please be clear.

 

[DHK]

You aren't clear. What myth do you refer too?

Purgatory and all that it entails is a complete myth. There is nothing in Scripture to support it.

Are you suggesting that there is no second chances after this life is a myth?

Absolutely, there is no second chance after life. Heb.9:27 proves this.

Or Are you suggesting that there is no purgation after this life?

Such a belief as that would suggest that the blood of Christ which cleanses us from all sin is not sufficient--that Christ failed on the Cross. It is pure heresy.

Or are you suggesting God isn't a consuming fire?

Indeed He is a consuming fire. The Bible describes him that way. It is a picture of a God that metes out judgment. It is a figurative description.

Or are you suggesting that what we do isn't tested by fire after death?

The Bible describes in 1Cor.11-15 the Judgment Seat of Christ, which happens in a very short time span, within the span of the Tribulation Period (seven years). During that time a believers works will be judged, not the believer himself. There is no such concept of a believer going through fire. The works themselves go through fire. Some will be burned up, and some will be purified. Those that will be purified are rewards. Those that are burned up are loss of reward. All are believers and no one suffers loss of salvation. No believer is tormented by flames (or purged).

Maybe you believe that our faith isn't proven at the coming of Jesus Christ

It isn't. He comes a thief in the night, suddenly, when no one expects it.

Mabye you don't believe people are saved - Snatched out of the fire?

They are. "Snatched out of the fire" is a figurative expression meaning they won't be going to hell. When a person is saved they are saved for all eternity. They have eternal security (OSAS). There is no fear of hell any longer. They are snatched out of the clutches of hell, therefore. That happens here on this earth.

Maybe you don't believe in a purgation

No I don't. I believe in salvation. I don't deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

So which is it that you consider myth? Please be clear.

Every concept related to purgatory is heresy.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Don't offer RCC myth. If you can't find Purgatory in the Bible; it isn't true.
And we know it isn't in the Bible.

"For it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment." (Heb.9:27)

Well.... not everything is IN the bible is it? Further, how do you know that after judgment, those who are sent to heaven will not have a little baggage that needs to be removed before they go there. You don't and neither do I - hence the "notion" of purgatory.

We don't know if our cleansing is done instantaneously or if it takes some process to do it. In the end, it's all the sacrifice of our Lord that makes that possible – the process by which it takes place is up to Him.

WM

 

[DHK]

Well.... not everything is IN the bible is it? Further, how do you know that after judgment, those who are sent to heaven will not have a little baggage that needs to be removed before they go there. You don't and neither do I - hence the "notion" of purgatory.

We don't know if our cleansing is done instantaneously or if it takes some process to do it. In the end, it's all the sacrifice of our Lord that makes that possible – the process by which it takes place is up to Him.

WM

What part of "It is finished" do you not understand.
His atonement was finished on the cross.
He paid the penalty in full on the cross. There was no other payment to be made, as in purgatory. If the RCC wants to spit in the face of Jesus and tell him that his death on the cross was not good enough let them do so. The other thief railed on him too. How can those in the RCC be saved with such an attitude.

 

[WestminsterMan]

What part of "It is finished" do you not understand.
His atonement was finished on the cross.

His sacrifice was finished - not how or even when the cleansing due to that sacrifice takes place. Try again...

He paid the penalty in full on the cross. There was no other payment to be made, as in purgatory.

Are you honestly saying that when you die you will have no sins on your soul? If not, then in some way those sins must be removed. Nothing unclean will be allowed in heaven.

If the RCC wants to spit in the face of Jesus and tell him that his death on the cross was not good enough let them do so. The other thief railed on him too. How can those in the RCC be saved with such an attitude.

No one here is "...spitting in the face of Jesus..." or telling Him that His "...death on the cross was not good enough..." It is only by His life, death, and resurection that the forgiveness of sins can take place in the first place. You really need to take a breath there DHK.

WM

 

[saturneptune]

His sacrifice was finished - not how or even when the cleansing due to that sacrifice takes place. Try again...

Are you honestly saying that when you die you will have no sins on your soul? If not, then in some way those sins must be removed. Nothing unclean will be allowed in heaven.

WM

Are you Catholic or maybe Church of Christ?

 

[WestminsterMan]

Are you Catholic or maybe Church of Christ?

Nope... Baptist. But I can see how they might come to such a conclusion.

WM

 

[DHK]

His sacrifice was finished - not how or even when the cleansing due to that sacrifice takes place. Try again...

Purgatory implies that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient. It is an insult to Christ.
Understand this. Christ paid the penalty of our sin in full.

There are dozens of verses that teach the same as below, but for now I will just quote this one:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Purgatory teaches this is a lie.
If the blood of Christ cleanses us or purges us from all sin, there is no need to believe in a myth that something else does.

Are you honestly saying that when you die you will have no sins on your soul? If not, then in some way those sins must be removed. Nothing unclean will be allowed in heaven.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--All my sins are forgiven right now: past, present and future, as far as salvation is concerned. I have no sins to worry about. When God looks down upon me he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He does not see sin.
When I sin in this life, I confess it to Christ, as IJohn 1:9 teaches. I have no sin to worry about. I can never lose my salvation. I am God's child born into his family.

No one here is "...spitting in the face of Jesus..." or telling Him that His "...death on the cross was not good enough let them do so." It is only by His life, death, and resurection that the forgiveness of sins can take place in the first place. You really need to take a breath there DHK.
WM

All who believe that heretical doctrine do just that. It takes away from the sufficiency of Christ. It is blasphemous.

 

[DHK]

Nope... Baptist. But I can see how they might come to such a conclusion.

WM

Come now, tell the truth. I believe you are Anglican, are you not?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Purgatory and all that it entails is a complete myth. There is nothing in Scripture to support it.

Oh, so you just throw away the scriptures I quoted. Thats ok if you have a smorgishboard theology.

Absolutely, there is no second chance after life. Heb.9:27 proves this

Hey at least we agree on this point!

Such a belief as that would suggest that the blood of Christ which cleanses us from all sin is not sufficient--that Christ failed on the Cross. It is pure heresy.

Not at all. That like saying since I sin now after I "accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior" - to coin your salvation perspective that Jesus Christ failed on the Cross because we aren't cleansed from all sin and the commission of sin. Of course you wouldn't say that therefore it doesn't apply to purgation either since its really about sanctification.

Indeed He is a consuming fire. The Bible describes him that way. It is a picture of a God that metes out judgment. It is a figurative description.

Are you suggesting God wasn't in the burning bush, or that God wasn't the pillar of fire leading Israel through the wilderness? That was just figurative language? You believe God isn't really a consuming fire? Hmmmm. Thats odd.

The Bible describes in 1Cor.11-15 the Judgment Seat of Christ, which happens in a very short time span, within the span of the Tribulation Period (seven years).

There is nothing in that passage suggesting a "Rapture" eschatology. Certainly Judgement is accomplished and by fire!

During that time a believers works will be judged, not the believer himself.

Wow I find that odd view of that verse especially when that verse says

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The verse makes it clear that the builder will suffer loss and be saved. "as one escaping through flames". Its clear that this person is saved which according to your soteriology only can happen to believers. Unless you are suggesting some are saved by belief and some are saved by works. If then you believe that then you aren't Sola Fide.

There is no such concept of a believer going through fire.

Again just disregard the scriptures I quoted to you.

The works themselves go through fire. Some will be burned up, and some will be purified. Those that will be purified are rewards. Those that are burned up are loss of reward. All are believers and no one suffers loss of salvation. No believer is tormented by flames (or purged).

You obviously don't understand purgation. Purgatory is not hell its sanctification and being in the presence of God who is a consuming fire anything not subjected to him will be burned away Dan 12:10

Many will be purified, made spotless and refined,

It isn't. He comes a thief in the night, suddenly, when no one expects it.

Huh. Then Peter Doesn't know what he's talking about.

These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

But hey, you can believe what you want.

They are. "Snatched out of the fire" is a figurative expression meaning they won't be going to hell

and is it figurative expression when Paul says

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Meaning (from a figurative use based on your perspective since to you all mention of fire means hell) that to be saved you must go THROUGH hell? I think not.

When a person is saved they are saved for all eternity. They have eternal security (OSAS).

I agree once a person is saved (past tense) they are saved for all eternity. However that isn't once saved always saved theology. OSAS is once someone comes to "accept Jesus as their personal savior they are guaranteed heaven no matter how much rebellion and sin unrepentedly they do through out their lives. Because they pretty much feel bad because they should no better but do it anyway? Maybe I got carried away with the discription. Sorry.

No I don't. I believe in salvation. I don't deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

Ok. I got no problem with that. Because in essense you are telling me you are fully sanctified and no longer deal with sin because you have attained perfection. Cool.

Every concept related to purgatory is heresy.

I guess every concept related to sanctification is heresy too. It used to be that there was Orthodox teaching but now that everyone is Orthodox in their own mind based on their interpretation of scripture they can call any one who discents from them a heretic. So, It really shouldn't bother anyone to be called a heretic because no matter what you believe someone else believes you are a heretic thus we all are heretics. Funny thought.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Purgatory implies that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient. It is an insult to Christ.
Understand this. Christ paid the penalty of our sin in full.

There are dozens of verses that teach the same as below, but for now I will just quote this one:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Just when does that cleansing take place?

Purgatory teaches this is a lie.
If the blood of Christ cleanses us or purges us from all sin, there is no need to believe in a myth that something else does.

Again... scripture doesn't say WHEN that cleansing takes place does it. Hmmm...

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--All my sins are forgiven right now: past, present and future, as far as salvation is concerned. I have no sins to worry about. When God looks down upon me he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He does not see sin.

Forgiving sin isn't the same as removing it. If I hit your car and it's my fault you might forgive me, but I still need to fix your car.

When I sin in this life, I confess it to Christ, as IJohn 1:9 teaches. I have no sin to worry about.

But what if you sin and then immediately die.... what about THOSE sins? Hmmm...

I can never lose my salvation. I am God's child born into his family.

Well, that's another topic now isn't it?

All who believe that heretical doctrine do just that. It takes away from the sufficiency of Christ. It is blasphemous.

Hogwash! You say this is a "heretical doctrine" and that it's "blasphemous". Yet, you aren't God so why should anyone care about baseless pontifications on your part.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

Come now, tell the truth. I believe you are Anglican, are you not?

Nope.

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nope... Baptist. But I can see how they might come to such a conclusion.

WM

What I find curious is that you come to these conclusions reading scripture and based on scriptural authority being over all. Yet though you assertain certain things that are in scripture (even the SBC is playing with the idea of a purgation) as you read it; you are accused of being catholic or Anglican because you come to a differing conclusion than certain others.