Semi-Pelagianism

[Amy.G]

I would love to Amy. Please, grant me some time to gather my thoughts on the matter and I will return shortly with my humble, fallible reply.

Please do so in light of my debate with Moriah regarding his statement:

I have since realized that a true believer does not have to attend a church.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am not here to encourage false doctrine.

Would you like to address Hebrews 10:25?

Then stop holding to it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Perhaps you should stop judging people you don't know. Are you aware of the postings of Moriah and HP and their works based salvation? Do you also forsake the assembling together of believers?

This is also a debate board, therefore we debate. If you don't want to debate, you may participate in the other discussions section. If I see false doctrine, I will address it. If you don't like my posts you are free to put me on ignore.

Although I don't agree with their views on sanctification, I have not seen where they believe in a works-based salvation.

 

[Amy.G]

Then stop holding to it.

What would you be referring to Michael?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

What would you be referring to Michael?

Well, you know where we have had our battles. But I'm not going to do to you what you do to others. I made the remark as an off-hand reply because I object to your accusing others of promoting false doctrine.

I've decided I'm not going to accuse others of that, no matter how strongly I hold to something and no matter how much I disagree with something. So, no, I am not going to accuse you of holding false doctrines.

I just find it amazing how many self-appointed identifiers of false doctrine and heresy that we have on this board.

 

[Godspeaks2me]

Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Assembling can be anytime anywhere. Where do you get only Church from?

This is NOT my opinion. It is God's word and command to assemble together.

I don't see the word "command" in the scripture. I also don't see where it say's you are not a believer if you don't attend church every week. Maybe, I am missing these verses? Or perhaps your assuming someone that believes (has) to attend church to be a believer? I feel that your idea's are based on your own opinion. You may be right or wrong but God only know's.

Moriah plainly stated that it was not necessary to assemble together. What would you call it if not disobedient? That is NOT a false accusation.

James 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Hebrews 10 30:31 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It's not your place to tell anyone there disobedient to God. As I said there is a way to articulate your beliefs that are pleasing to God and a way that is not.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So you have a church in your home? Do other believers assemble together on the first day of the week in your home? Do you have elders? A pastor? Do you collect money for the helping of the saints and the furtherance of the gospel? If not, then you disobey Hebrews 10:25.

Where is it required to assemble on the first day of the week, or to have a pastor, or elders? Seems like you are turning the Gospel into Law.

To fulfill Hebrews 10:25 and also follow what Jesus said, it only requires two people, and that's all -- not a certain time, nor day, nor clergy.

Wherever and whenever two or more are gathered together in Jesus's name, He is in their midst, and there is the church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is no "list". Do you find it offensive to be asked the same question you ask of others?
I will ask it again of you (since you expect others to answer you):

What does the Lord require of you, HP?

BTW, "HP" is only one person, not many, not a list. I have only asked this of you.

ooooh ooooh ooooh! (waving my hand above my head) I know, I know! "To do Justly, to live rightly, and to walk humbly with thy God."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

ooooh ooooh ooooh! (waving my hand above my head) I know, I know! "To do Justly, to live rightly, and to walk humbly with thy God."

Just wondered if you saw my post to you, #14 in this thread. I'd be interested in your response.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Stop accusing me of sinning. It is not a sin not to go to church once a week. That is belief that Catholics teach. You have proven that going to a church building has not given you the Truth. You put down people staying at home, but that is where the Christians met, in homes.

Yes and with good reason! First of all we are commanded such as Annsi points out with her quotes from Hebrews. And I would like to add James to the list. Second we need the graces that help us to grow and overcome sin in our lives.

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

It is clear here that graces are applied in community. Jesus established a kingdom here on earth overwhich he is king not an island. And the Early Christians did meet in homes but not just any homes as you seem to think but the homes of the wealthy who could afford to place alters in them (archeological evidence for this). The only reason they did this was becaused they were kicked out of Synagogues and their faith was not authorized by the Roman Government. They also met in Catacombs but they went at great lengths to meet. And that is the point. Christianity is a community faith. And I think that is one of the problems of the reformation was that it turned a community faith into an individual cerebral faith where it made sense to say nonsense things like: "I don't need to go to church! I can worship God by myself in nature and wonder at creation!" To equate the two is ridiculous. What good are you doing anyone else beleiving you are having church by yourself in the woods as you hug a tree? We are commanded to community action. And if you want to sing a song of praise because of creation. Fine, but its not the same as going to church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Just wondered if you saw my post to you, #14 in this thread. I'd be interested in your response.

I'll take a look...........

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I wanted to ask you: Since Augustine is held in high regard in the RCC and his beliefs have been accepted and very influential, how does the RCC escape believing in total depravity and other such Augustine-influenced doctrine as penal substitution (although the latter was only fully developed by Calvin)? Is it because Aquinas is even more influential in RC thought?

Aquinas is held in regard. However, the Catholic Church has centuries before Augustine had certain views already established and built upon, and I think Augustine gets a bad wrap because of Calvin. Attonment for Catholics has always been reconciling Man to God. Augustine is often taken too literally as we can see he goes against this view of Penal Substitution in (In Joannem, Tract. cx, section 6). However more closely Augustine's view is that Christ paid a debt to Justice. Or the Aversion of wrath.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here are quick definitions of Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism: This is from a website Got Questions?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Pelagianism.html



Now, here's the definition of Semi-Pelagnianism:


Hey Michael, does this definition fit you?

BTW, I'm not either one.

Nor am I Tom, nor am I :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, I mean both are extremes, and neither is the truth.

how do you know what the truth is?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: To do Justly, to live rightly, and to walk humbly with thy God."

HP: Now there is one thinking! :thumbs:

The question we have to ask ourselves is, are we able with the Lord's help to do that, and if we are doing that on a consistent basis, is that not a state of entire sanctification? There is nothing strange or over the top to walk daily with the Lord , justly, rightly and humbly. With the Lord's help it is not only doable but required by God.


I brought the question up originally to Michael, as he was having difficulty with the notion of entire sanctification. I believe the Scripture you set forth here places a sanctified life on an understandable level. It is not some pie in the sky unreachable level we must strive for but never able to attain in this present world, as some would falsely conclude. It is not arriving at a state where we could not sin, but rather walking close to God daily where it could be rightfully said we have no desire to sin. It is not arriving at a place where sin may never occur, but rather walking daily in obedience to a point that it can be rightfully said of us, we sin not or do not sin. It is walking consistently where sin, if it occurs, is the abnormal thing in our life, not the normal.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael: Where is it required to assemble on the first day of the week, or to have a pastor, or elders? Seems like you are turning the Gospel into Law.

HP: Could Amy be promoting a works based salvation?:saint:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Godspeaks2me, I certainly like your approach, logic and Scriptural advice. God help me to follow your lead!

 

[Amy.G]

Assembling can be anytime anywhere. Where do you get only Church from?

I agree. Where did I say otherwise? Church is not a building. It's a gathering of believers in one place to worship God.

I don't see the word "command" in the scripture.

?? If scripture says do this or don't do that, is that not a command? Must it be written on stone tablets for you to obey?

I also don't see where it say's you are not a believer if you don't attend church every week. Maybe, I am missing these verses? Or perhaps your assuming someone that believes (has) to attend church to be a believer? I feel that your idea's are based on your own opinion. You may be right or wrong but God only know's.

I never said you aren't a believer if you don't attend a church. I said disobedient. Believers can be disobedient, correct?

James 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?

And the Lawgiver has said in His word to assemble together.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Has nothing to do with whether or not God has said to assemble together.

Hebrews 10 30:31 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I don't know what your point here is. Do you think I will fall under God's wrath for quoting His words?

It's not your place to tell anyone there disobedient to God. As I said there is a way to articulate your beliefs that are pleasing to God and a way that is not.

Are you not judging me now?


What I don't understand is this defense of not assembling together when God clearly meant for us to do just that. The letters in the NT are all written to the "church". The various groups of people who regularly gathered together to worship, teach, exhort, and encourage one another in the faith. We are given clear instructions has to how to carry out specific church functions such as worship practices, elder appointments, pastors. God has given to each one gifts such as teaching. Who are teachers to teach if everyone stayed at home?
The defense of not gathering together makes no sense in light of everything the NT teaches.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I

I never said you aren't a believer if you don't attend a church. I said disobedient. Believers can be disobedient, correct?

OK...Not trying to be controversial but Ive done an exhaustive search for a solid church & they have all come up short .....soooo, let me just put it bluntly in a question....."What if all the churches around you suck" what do you do then?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Well, 1st of all I usually dont tack anything, theologically,on to my identity other then "Christian", (I am not a Arminion, nor FOR SURE not a calvinist.)

But after reading the description of semi-palagionism early in this thread I can say that I give a hearty AMEN to it!


(this reply is from waay back earlier, and does not pertain the the current wars.)