Miracles

[The Biblicist]

If they believed the miracles, then they would believe that the one who did the miracles is from God!

The Bible says John was sent "of God" but that belief did not and does not save anyone and he did no miracles!

Believing that Christ comes from God saves no one. However, denying it prevents one from being saved. Salvation is through faith in the Person and redemptive work of Christ and that ALONE!

 

[annsni]

If they believed the miracles, then they would believe that the one who did the miracles is from God!

Do you really think so? There were even those who said that He was the Son of God yet walked away. So how would that belief save them?

 

[Moriah]

Not one text says that God "wants" all people to be saved.

You go against God’s Word so that you can defend the lie of Calvin.

This text only exhorts them to believe the miracles that they might "KNOW" that the Father is in Him. It does not say anything about believe the miracles in order to be saved.

Stop trying to pretend I said something I did not say. It is laughable. Jesus doing miracles and wanting people to believe in him, even because of the miracles…is something that Calvinists cannot deal with.

That is only PART of God's word on this subject. He has other sheep not of this fold that he will bring in and they have been given to him as well (Jn. 17:2, 21). Hence, "ALL" includes the "lost sheep of Israel" but is not fulfilled by simply "the lost sheep of Israel" as you wrongly conclude and wrongly interpret PART of the scriptures on this subject.

You deny Jesus’ words again. While Jesus was on earth, he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. After Jesus was lifted up, he brought in the other fold.

That is during his EARTHLY ministry but in John 17 he speaks of those given him by the Father out of "ALL FLESH" that shall believe AFTER He has returned to heaven and in John 10 that there are OTHER SHEEP not of this fold that he will bring into the fold. You take PART and reject the REST - so you have a HALF-truth.

John 17 is speaking of those who BELONGED TO GOD FIRST, THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL BELIEVED IN GOD FIRST BECAUSE JESUS WAS NOT YET KNOWN. AFTER JESUS CAME TO EARTH, THE LOST SHEEP NOW HAD TO GO THROUGH JESUS. THEY WERE GOD’S, BUT GOD GAVE THEM TO JESUS. THEY WERE GOD’S, AND THEY BELIEVED JESUS WAS FROM GOD. ONLY THE LOST SHEEP COULD COME TO JESUS UNTIL JESUS WAS LIFTED UP. That is the Word of God!

 

[annsni]

You go against God’s Word so that you can defend the lie of Calvin.

Stop trying to pretend I said something I did not say. It is laughable. Jesus doing miracles and wanting people to believe in him, even because of the miracles…is something that Calvinists cannot deal with.

Don't make this a Calvinist/not Calvinist thing. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the clear teachings of Scripture. YOUR view has poor Jesus trying desperately to get people to believe in Him and he's not successful. He's begging but they just don't believe. Does that sound like the truth to you?

You deny Jesus’ words again. While Jesus was on earth, he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. After Jesus was lifted up, he brought in the other fold.

John 17 is speaking of those who BELONGED TO GOD FIRST, THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL BELIEVED IN GOD FIRST BECAUSE JESUS WAS NOT YET KNOWN. AFTER JESUS CAME TO EARTH, THE LOST SHEEP NOW HAD TO GO THROUGH JESUS. THEY WERE GOD’S, BUT GOD GAVE THEM TO JESUS. THEY WERE GOD’S, AND THEY BELIEVED JESUS WAS FROM GOD. ONLY THE LOST SHEEP COULD COME TO JESUS UNTIL JESUS WAS LIFTED UP. That is the Word of God!

Why were Gentiles healed then if Jesus only came for the Jews? Why were Gentiles saved when Jesus only came for the Jews?

 

[Moriah]

Do you really think so? There were even those who said that He was the Son of God yet walked away. So how would that belief save them?

Study these scriptures carefully:

Matthew 11:20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Why do you think that Jesus said that? Why do you think that Jesus said if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day?

Mark 6:2
When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles!
Luke 10:13
“Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Why do you think that Jesus said these things about those places who did not believe in him because of the miracles?

Luke 19:37
When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me,
John 10:32
but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Did you see that?

John 14:11
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Did you see that? Those are Jesus’ words. You are not fighting against me you are fighting against Jesus.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

 

[Moriah]

Don't make this a Calvinist/not Calvinist thing.

Excuse me, but I can make a post about Calvinist topics if I want. Who are you to tell me not to make this about Calvinism?

It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the clear teachings of Scripture. YOUR view has poor Jesus trying desperately to get people to believe in Him and he's not successful. He's begging but they just don't believe. Does that sound like the truth to you?

You just proved it goes against Calvinism, for you repeat what you have heard your leaders say. If Jesus was not successful, as you say, then you would have to deny that there are people who believed him, and that there are people who are saved! Your argument is nonsense.

Why were Gentiles healed then if Jesus only came for the Jews? Why were Gentiles saved when Jesus only came for the Jews?

Gentiles were not included till God allowed Gentiles to be included, read about Peter’s vision. As for some Gentiles being healed before that, being healed of a physical ailment does NOT mean they were already included in salvation.

 

[annsni]

There were many who believed in the miracles but were not saved. It was the miracles that pointed to Christ but believing in the miracles alone couldn't do anything. They could believe the miracles, believe what Jesus said and believe on Him and be saved but it was not the miracles alone. I don't see anywhere there that says that believing on the miracles would save them but if they believed what the miracles said, they would repent. See that part of the Scripture? REPENT. Interesting.

 

[annsni]

Excuse me, but I can make a post about Calvinist topics if I want. Who are you to tell me not to make this about Calvinism?

You can say that the sky is green because of Calvinism - but it doesn't make it true.

You just proved it goes against Calvinism, for you repeat what you have heard your leaders say. If Jesus was not successful, as you say, then you would have to deny that there are people who believed him, and that there are people who are saved! Your argument is nonsense.
Gentiles were not included till God allowed Gentiles to be included, read about Peter’s vision. As for some Gentiles being healed before that, being healed of a physical ailment does NOT mean they were already included in salvation.

No - Jesus WAS successful. I'd never say that Jesus failed. You did.

Oh - so being healed means nothing but believing miracles saves. Interesting theology. Let's take a look at the whole context - and response of Jesus - of one of the verses you mentioned:

Matthew 15: He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.[e]

Wow - JUST the lost sheep of Israel? Jesus disobeyed then.

 

[Moriah]

There were many who believed in the miracles but were not saved.

Show scripture that says that.

It was the miracles that pointed to Christ but believing in the miracles alone couldn't do anything.

Who said the believing in the miracles means a person does not have to believe Jesus?

They could believe the miracles, believe what Jesus said and believe on Him and be saved but it was not the miracles alone.

It is strange that you would even go there.

I don't see anywhere there that says that believing on the miracles would save them but if they believed what the miracles said, they would repent. See that part of the Scripture? REPENT. Interesting.

The scriptures about the miracles is something Calvinists cannot grasp, because if people believe in Jesus only after first being saved, then miracles would not ever even be done, and Jesus would not say EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME. BELIEVE THE MIRACLES. THAT YOU MAY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN THE FATHER.
Why would Jesus say that if they cannot believe anyway?
I made this post so that Calvinists and Lutherans could consider more carefully, what the word says.

 

[Moriah]

You can say that the sky is green because of Calvinism - but it doesn't make it true.

That goes for you.

No - Jesus WAS successful. I'd never say that Jesus failed. You did.

Do not be deceitful, you are the one who claims my beliefs make Jesus unsuccessful.

Oh - so being healed means nothing but believing miracles saves. Interesting theology. Let's take a look at the whole context - and response of Jesus - of one of the verses you mentioned:
Matthew 15: He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.[e]
Wow - JUST the lost sheep of Israel? Jesus disobeyed then.

You speak blasphemy against Jesus. I will not continue to speak about this with you any further.

 

[annsni]

because if people believe in Jesus only after first being saved,

Ahhh - see? There is your problem. I don't know what theology that is but it is not at all in the Doctrine of Grace/Calvinism.

 

[annsni]

That goes for you.

Do not be deceitful, you are the one who claims my beliefs make Jesus unsuccessful.

You speak blasphemy against Jesus. I will not continue to speak about this with you any further.

I am just taking your thoughts to their logical conclusion. If you wish to cover your ears, that is your choice but I choose to dialogue. I think that's a bit more of a mature way to deal with things, don't you?

 

[DHK]

You speak blasphemy against Jesus. I will not continue to speak about this with you any further.

As I read the post, I see that Ann simply posted Scripture. You call it blasphemy. Please answer to this unwarranted charge!

 

[Moriah]

Ahhh - see? There is your problem. I don't know what theology that is but it is not at all in the Doctrine of Grace/Calvinism.

No, that is your problem, because you do not even understand that about your own religion. Calvinists believe that no one can believe in God until God saves them.

 

[Moriah]

I am just taking your thoughts to their logical conclusion. If you wish to cover your ears, that is your choice but I choose to dialogue. I think that's a bit more of a mature way to deal with things, don't you?

I am only speaking scripture. Your conclusions and reasoning is error.

 

[annsni]

No, that is your problem, because you do not even understand that about your own religion. Calvinists believe that no one can believe in God until God saves them.

Not that I've ever seen or heard or read or watched.

 

[Moriah]

As I read the post, I see that Ann simply posted Scripture. You call it blasphemy. Please answer to this unwarranted charge!

Annsni said, “Jesus disobeyed then.” Jesus WAS only sent to the lost sheep of Israel! Jesus DID heal the Canaanite woman’s daughter!


Originally Posted by annsni
Oh - so being healed means nothing but believing miracles saves. Interesting theology. Let's take a look at the whole context - and response of Jesus - of one of the verses you mentioned:
Matthew 15: He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.[e]
Wow - JUST the lost sheep of Israel? Jesus disobeyed then.

 

[Moriah]

Not that I've ever seen or heard or read or watched.

Maybe now you will consider leaving such a religion.
You can do an Internet search and find what I said to be true. Here is just one of many sites telling you that Calvinists believe no one can believe in God even after learning of Him, until God saves them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, total corruption, or Augustinianism[citation needed]) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is offered.

 

[annsni]

Maybe now you will consider leaving such a religion.
You can do an Internet search and find what I said to be true. Here is just one of many sites telling you that Calvinists believe no one can believe in God even after learning of Him, until God saves them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, total corruption, or Augustinianism[citation needed]) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is offered.

And I don't see anything in here about God saving someone before they believe.

 

[DHK]

Annsni said, “Jesus disobeyed then.” Jesus WAS only sent to the lost sheep of Israel! Jesus DID heal the Canaanite woman’s daughter!

Ann is answering you. You were the one that said: "Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel."
She pointed out that Christ went to heal the Canaanite woman's daughter--not an Israelite.

Now you quote Ann who quotes the context of the healing:

Originally Posted by annsni
Oh - so being healed means nothing but believing miracles saves. Interesting theology. Let's take a look at the whole context - and response of Jesus - of one of the verses you mentioned:
Matthew 15: He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.[e]
Wow - JUST the lost sheep of Israel? Jesus disobeyed then.

Jesus healed the Syrophoenecian woman, and the Canaanite woman's daughter, both of whom were Gentile women outside of the nation of Israel. The question posed to you then: According to your theology, was Jesus disobeying His Father?
Is this the blasphemy you speak of?