Featured Apparent contradiction?

There is no contradiction.

The issue is in how we understand the word "know". There is a distinct difference being having a knowledge of and actually knowing someone. Reading through the gospel of John we see Jesus explaining in various terms how this works. He talked in the language people could understand on the physical level but unless drawn by God they would never really understand the true message of His words. To put it simply, they did not have ears to hear.

Knowing, like hearing and believing, are active words the imply something deeper in their meaning than most people grasp.

 

:applause::applause: There is no contradiction....not all are good ground hearers....Jesus taught the parable of the sower and the seed.Only the elect who are given a new heart are good ground hearers:thumbsup:

 

You come to a fallacious conclusion that 'they' understand more by creation than by the Word. You have the cart before the horse in a sense. The entire argument posited in the OP is faulty.

However, the premise of truth presented (in Scripture, not the OP) is that they are without excuse, a position you've struggled with in other threads you've written. For example your 'how can you blame them' thread (or similar in title).

It's apparent that this topic is a huge stumbling block for you, but the Scriptures are plain: Sovereign God says they are without excuse, and there is absolutely no contradiction.

 

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

I don't think there is any problem with this passage. The Universe and the world we live in can't have made themselves, because nothing makes itself. That is obvious. However, because men don't like the thought of God being over them (Rom 1:28), they either convince themselves that the world really did make itself or they make their own gods in their own image, or they become deists and suppose that God, having made the world has no further interest in it.

When they do any of these things they are without excuse, because the Creation demands a Creator and they should be searching and reaching out for Him (Acts 17:27), but in fact, unless God moves someone's heart to do so, 'There is none who seeks after God' (Rom 3:11).

That's not what the text says. The evidence of God in creation should lead men to seek God, but they won't do so.

They can't understand because of their wicked unregenerate hearts. Their ignorance is not physical but moral. They willfully forget God (2 Peter 3:5).

That is why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.

Steve

 

You are so SPECIAL!!!!!!!!

 

natural man, person who has the nature of a sinner, can see and understand from nature that someone/something must have made the Universe,and a person can hear the Gospel and read the bible and know the facts regarding jesus, salvation, heaven, hell etc, but will not be able to make a heart commitment to the truth learned, but only a mental assent to it!

can confess that Bible teach jesus died foe sinners, raised from dead per bible, but cannot make a heart commitment until enabled to the working of the Holy Spirit on their behalf!

they would be as the demons, know the truth and facts of God, but refuse to acknowledge Him!

 

I would try to draw a distinction between the eternal memorial testimony of God's handiwork in nature ("The heavens declare the glory of God, and the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech, night after night they display knowledge" - Psalm 19:1-2) and special divine revelation of truth: prophetic truth/enablement, theophanies (Yahweh appearing with two angels to Abraham by the Oak at Mamre), and the biggest revelatory evidence of His being which God has ever given to man of Himself, other than sending his Son Jesus: Yahweh descending in a dark cloud upon Mt. Sinai in the sight of 3 million Israelites for all to see with heavenly trumpets blaring, His voice booming to the congregation, and the earth shaking beneath them. I would even say that as a "believing" Jew Saul of Tarsus still came to yet see "a new light" when Jesus blinded him on the road to Damascus. Remarkably, Saul even had the wherewithall to ask "Lord, who are you?" (Acts 9:5) because he had a sense of the greatness of the One with whom he was speaking.

All people have enough knowledge of God through creation to be held accountable, but special revelation is given only to God's people. This can be seen in the special privilege given to the Jews (mentioned just two chapters later in Romans), over against the Gentiles, of having received God's very oracles/spoken words: "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-2). The Jews received special revelation of God's oracles, unlike the Gentiles. "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). But creation itself is not a special revelation, but rather it displays memorials and testimonies of God for all men to see and understand. Does that shed any light on it?

God Bless,
~Josh

 

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised that this thread is another of your wretched attempts at Calvinist-beating or I wouldn't have responded. I thought perhaps you actually wanted an answer to your question.

Carry on without me.

Steve

 

I am neither righteously indignant nor pretending to be. I am just weary of these pointless threads on Calvinism. How often does one have to post the almost identical answer to the almost identical question? That this is a debate forum I know. That you have a perfect right to start the almost identical wearisome threads time after time after time I also know.

All I'm saying is, carry on without me. That is my right. I really thought for a moment that you might have started a thread on an interesting topic here, but it was not to be.

Steve

 

Shhh! You'll wake the baby!
Actually, I'm not going to. (participate, that is).

Steve

 

If I may, here is my thoughts or nickles worth:

Look at vs 19 of Romans 1 which in context is connected to vs 18:

This portion is directly related to vs 18 which states the "wrath of God is revealed", here man knows of God's wrath or judgment.. "against all unrighteousness" ... here man knows of sin (unrighteousness) and by contrast must also know it's polar opposite - Righteousness. And His judgment revealed is against "those who hold the truth in unrighteousness" .. knowing but rejecting. But what is most interesting is that these things are made known to them BY GOD.

Not only there but as you read the rest of Romans 1 you can see 3 interesting things that man comes to know specifically.
1) Sin;
2) righteousness;
3) Judgment to come

What makes this so interesting is that Jesus stated the Holy Spirit into the 'world' to convict the world of:
1) Sin;
2) righteousness;
3) Judgment to come.

From here it appears that man's intellect and rational ability are not enough for him to understand these things by himself. God must reveal them to man.

Another point just as important is that mans heart once he chooses not to believe becomes darkened/hardened (vs 21), and continuing in this manner and going from bad to worse (vss 22-23), we see it was AT THIS POINT (wherefore or because of this) God gave them over... it was after their rejection of His truth(s) he turned them over to have what they wanted most (separation) from Him.

This is important because it reveals something spectacular about God's interaction with unregenerate man.. that He not only DOES but IS doing so. It is important also because we see they weren't set aside and just left alone by God, and that God only works upon those whom will believe.

Personally I believe this argument can and SHOULD be made by Calvinists in that God does indeed work upon the unregenerate to the point they indeed do know not only of but somewhat about Him. However it is not done in such a way that compels them to come, but to only acknowledge Him and their own lostness. In this, like the very passage in Rom 1 (and even 2 shows) they are without excuse because they knew the truth, but rejected it. I believe this is seen enough in scripture give extremely strong support for this idea (though it is not my belief), yet it is not something you very often at all, though I have run across here and there of late. Regarding this kind of view I could at least agree with them more as I don't see scripture declaring that God does not work upon those who will not believe. (as evidenced here, He does, to some degree)

 

I believe I said that didn't I?

The gospel is the fullness of those truths, personified in Christ.
Thus to me, no difference. God still has to bring understanding to man.
Regardless of when you consider it happening, the fact is still the same, God is doing it - not man. Man comprehends because God has made him to know it.