Amen! :thumbs:
We already had a Calvinist here who preached that unless you believe in TULIP you do not believe the Gospel. That's how far human reasoning can take a person off base.
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Smashing the "T" out of TULIP
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
Amen! :thumbs:
We already had a Calvinist here who preached that unless you believe in TULIP you do not believe the Gospel. That's how far human reasoning can take a person off base.
I thought so, at least that is what I always gathered from conversing with them.
I really find it odd that you would not have come across the answer to that question throughout your study of this subject. God tells us that He gives us the free gift when we ask, it doesn't just happen out of the blue...
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Then we have John 4:10, which is the most direct doctrine on how one receives the free Gift of God through asking and the giving of the Holy Spirit!
"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God," (what is the gift of God? No mystery, That would be salvation/eternal life/Holy Spirit, Eph2:8-9,Rom6:23,John4:10).
"...and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink;..." (this "who it is" would be the Saviour, Jesus Christ, the One who saves)
".... thou wouldest have asked of him" (Jesus),...." (we see here again that one asks Jesus for the gift of the Holy Spirit)
".... and he (Jesus) would have given thee living water." (Who is the Living Water? This would be the Holy Spirit, John7:38-39, which is also the free gift of Rom6:23&Eph2:8-9, which is salvation/eternal life).
When I began studying scripture 16 years ago, this is one of the first doctrines I studied because I wanted to know what it meant to be born-again and how one became born-again. Jesus made it crystal clear when He spoke with the woman at the well.
repeat of the same page
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Ps 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
1. David is speaking of the man without God.
2. This is a universal statement "every" man.
3. This has reference to "man" generic
4. This has application to man's "best" state
5. This has refernce to his TOTAL condition "altogether" vanity.
My question is what state do you believe is man's "best" state?
a. infant state
b. youth state
c. mature state
d. Old age state
Second, How is he "altogether" vanity at this state?
1. David is speaking of the man without God.
2. This is a universal statement "every" man.
3. This has reference to "man" generic
4. This has application to man's "best" state
5. This has refernce to his TOTAL condition "altogether" vanity.
My question is what state do you believe is man's "best" state?
a. infant state
b. youth state
c. mature state
d. Old age state
Second, How is he "altogether" vanity at this state?
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yes, for there is still a among Calvinists whether calvin himself was on the limited/unlimited atonement views, as both views can be cited and seen by His writtings, while beza formally categorized his teachings into the theology that we now cal calvinism, som eof whichjohn himself did not wither totally agree with, or else did not elaborate on!
I believe David is speaking of man's life on earth and the excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements (vanity).
Are you trying to use this passage as proof of "total depravity" ? I don't see it.
You are determined not to see it! That is the problem as the text is quite clear. "Every man" means "every man" and the focus point is at "his best state" rather than his worst state as you attempt to paint it.
Total depravity is so clearly taught in scriptures that its nay sayers must intentionally choose not to see it or must intentionally look for ways to escape it. There is no point in carrying on a debate with someone who chooses to ignore plainly stated language all through the scriptures from cover to cover.
No, actually, I am always very determined to rightly divide the word of truth. It's about knowing the truth for me, I let the scriptures say what they say, if Psalm 39 is one of TULIP's best go to verses for the support of their total depravity doctrine then it is coming up very lacking in my opinion.
I have no issue with the "every man" nor man's "best state". The issue is you are not seeing that it is the man's "vanity" that is the focus. Look up the definition for "vanity".....
here is is......" the excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements"
evangelist-7
New Member
Nah, not necessarily.
What about all of the BACs who can ONLY say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God"?
Unbelievable, but true!
I.E. That He is Son of God is obviously stated in the NT, but that He is God is not obviously stated.
.
I think you better look up the hebrew term translated "vanity" here. Are you one of those arm chair Bible students who base their doctrine on Webster's dictionary rather than either the Hebrew or Greek terms used or regardless of the archaic meaning of terms??????
I do not believe you have one objective bone in your body. You are not interested in truth but in espousing your particlar bias. If you were interested in truth you would examine the hebrew term being used and how it is translated in the Old Testament. It refers to a passing "breath" or "vapour" and conveys the idea of worthliness in comparison to things of value. It is the term used characteristically by David's son in Ecclesiates. He is not talking about a characteristic of man (pride) but is using it to characterize the very person of every man.
You mean like the thief on the Cross, who was with jesus in paradise?
A Penny Saved
New Member
What if it was called "total helplessness" or "total inability" or "total enslavement of the will" instead of Total Depravity?
There is certainly enough bible verses to demonstrate that unbelievers are helpless, unable to do anything good (we can't even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit enabling us), and that until we were freed by Christ, we were slaves to sin.
If it wasn't called "Total Depravity" but went by a "nicer" name would it be easier to accept?
This teaching was so essential to my conversion: Being helpless, defenseless against the just wrath of a holy God, and incapable even of confessing Him as Lord without His help (1 Corinthians 12:3)!
So does the new birth precede conversion? It seems like it would have to, since the new birth is from Above, not from within.
A new believer exploring her faith,
Penny
There is certainly enough bible verses to demonstrate that unbelievers are helpless, unable to do anything good (we can't even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit enabling us), and that until we were freed by Christ, we were slaves to sin.
If it wasn't called "Total Depravity" but went by a "nicer" name would it be easier to accept?
This teaching was so essential to my conversion: Being helpless, defenseless against the just wrath of a holy God, and incapable even of confessing Him as Lord without His help (1 Corinthians 12:3)!
So does the new birth precede conversion? It seems like it would have to, since the new birth is from Above, not from within.
A new believer exploring her faith,
Penny
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Welcome to the BB:thumbsup:
If new birth precedes faith, one has passed from death to life apart from Christ. You will not find that anywhere in Scripture. Christ IS The Life, and we find life only through Him.
A Penny Saved
New Member
Thank you! I posted a "hello" in the Welcome board. Nice to be here!
That makes sense, except where does that faith come from? I can't "make myself believe" the gospel, it's crazy ("foolishness" to borrow Paul's word). Here's why I asked the question:
Ephesians 2:8-9 said:
It's the "not of yourselves" part that begs the question.
Since "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised (1st Corinthians 2:14)," how can such a person accept and embrace "the foolisness of preaching" unless the Spirit does a miracle first?
Is verse 12 a fair summary of chapter 2? He says,
the Holy Spirit through Paul said:
So we have to "receive the Spirit of God" at least in some sense, first, before we can know the things of God (understand and accept the gospel).
My parents have heard the gospel from me many times, but it's a fairy tale to them, a gross injustice that a good man was executed, and a fantasy that He rose from the dead. They hate religion, blaming it for war and poverty and everything else that is wrong with the world. Only God can open their eyes to see what you and I see.
I have alot of trouble believing that a person like my mom or dad can "believe in magic" without some supernatural intervention. Otherwise why pray to God for their salvation? I should be praying to them instead of to God, since God "can't" do anything until they take the impossible first step of believing in "the foolishness of the gospel." If that's true, it makes me really sad. Not just for my parents, but for God being helpless, not getting His way unless a hardened God-hater like my dad "enables" God to save him by believing in magic. Not likely.
a humble Penny
Everything comes from God. God has equipped every man with the wonders of creation pointing to Him, His law written on our hearts (conscience), the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11) and every human placed in the perfect location geographically, socially and within time to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27). No man can plead ignorance on judgement day.
That is simply confirming that it is by grace and not works. 'That' in the verse is referring back to the entire statement in the Greek, not faith. Salvation is not of ourselves as I show above.
It sounds like for a new believer you have been hanging on the doctrine of the reformed. The passage you quote is given to believers in context to a failing church who were making spiritual decisions using the flesh (natural man, literally animal man in the Greek.). It doesn't take a miracle to believe, it takes humility, a contrite heart. God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble.
, Not in the way you are using it. This was written to believers.
We receive the spirit of God through faith. We cannot understand the deep things of God apart from that, but that doesn't equate to not being able to understand our condition and Gods solution as the Bible shows.
They sound like the ones Paul addressed in Romans 1, those that have suppressed the truth for a lie.
People believe in all sorts of things for a variety of reasons, even foolishness. God calls atheists fools... yet we are also told they know instinctively there is a God. People choose to believe that they know is false, too.
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Greetings Penny,
It seems you have determined that it is impossible for a person to choose Jesus Christ apart from God first regenerating their spirit. You will not find this doctrine within the scriptures themselves, this is a "theory" if you will that is forced because of the Calvinist strict adherence to the T of TULIP.
We can see in the scriptures and in observation of human beings that they are not "Totally" depraved. All people are depraved, born sinners, yet are made in the image of God and are very capable of doing non-depraved deeds. No one is always sinning 24/7 of their lives, even though all sin on a daily basis, even the born of God.
Apart from the drawing of the Holy Spirit no one can call upon Jesus Christ for salvation, this makes God first in all things. But the scripture is clear that many are called, but not all are chosen. The chosen ones are the Elect, those whom God knows will say yes to His open invitation to believe and call for that Spirit of rebirth, chosen in Christ, from the foundation of the world.
A Penny Saved
New Member
What about my first question: Would it be easier if it was called "Total Helplessness" or "Total Inability" instead of Total Depravity?"
My church is definitely NOT Calvinist, by the way, and I'm not sure I even know what Calvinism is - only that my pastors and teachers have warned me to stay away from Calvinists.
My questions are my own, and arise out of concern for my unsaved parents. If my reasoning is wrong, then please tell me something that will at least give me some hope for my parents' salvation. Because nothing shy of a miracle will make them accept "the foolishness" that their middle-school daughter came home spouting one day last summer.
a pensive, perplexed, penitent Penny
My church is definitely NOT Calvinist, by the way, and I'm not sure I even know what Calvinism is - only that my pastors and teachers have warned me to stay away from Calvinists.
My questions are my own, and arise out of concern for my unsaved parents. If my reasoning is wrong, then please tell me something that will at least give me some hope for my parents' salvation. Because nothing shy of a miracle will make them accept "the foolishness" that their middle-school daughter came home spouting one day last summer.
a pensive, perplexed, penitent Penny
All you can do is pray for them, show Christ through your life and look for opportunities to share your faith. Luke 18:1-8 is ideal for you...
The Parable of the Persistent Widow
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
Penny, your hope for your parents is found in Christ alone. We pray for our loved ones to be saved, but we cannot by our prayers have God force them to call on Jesus Christ for salvation. What God will do is draw all people unto Christ allowing them opportunity to be saved. What I usually pray is for God to convict the person of their lostness and need for a Saviour. However, I have witnessed people broken and confessing they know they should turn to Jesus, but go away not willing to submit themselves to Him.
God is patient and I continue to pray for His patients with my family, but I also know God can shut the door and harden forever a heart that has continually rejected His wooing. I always pray this will not happen and trust God will be longsuffering, but then there is death, when that person's open door will be closed and sealed forever. If you are faithful in prayer for your parents, and display the love of Christ in you towards them, you have done your part, and trust God will be fair and just to give them every opportunity for salvation.
To answer this question would be no, not really. Because what this doctrine of "Total Depravity" consist of is the teaching that no one can believe on Jesus Christ unless the Spirit of God causes them to believe. This is not the Spirits role taught throughout the scriptures. It is the Spirit's role, among many things, to point the hearts of men and women towards Jesus, convicting them of sin and pointing to the Truth found in Jesus Christ.
Your parents have been hardening their hearts towards the things of God. Pray God will break down their walls and let them see what you have seen in Jesus, and then hope they will make that wonderful decision to pray themselves and call upon the name of Jesus that they may be given a new heart and become that child of God. (Romans 10)