Featured Which view really exalts man?

Let me see if I'm understanding Webdog's argument here. WD, let me know if this is correct.

• Hell's punishment, even for an eternity, cannot satify God's wrath for the sin of a man.
• Hell is a judgement against man for their unbelief and rejection of the clearly revealed truth, not a satisfaction of God's wrath for their sin.
• Only an infinite sacrifice of an infinite being (Jesus) is able to satisfy God's wrath against sin once and for all.
• God's wrath will never be satisfied if indeed it requires an eternal punishment because the punishment will never come to an end and thus the wrath will never be appeased, thus God will remain in an eternal state of being unsatisfied and sin will never be fully conquered.

Would this be accurate?

 

Since WD agreed with this post, could one of you please post the scripture that backs up each point? So far all I'm seeing is opinions.

 

That might be all you do see there AMYG. Here is why....

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Paul in Romans 1 says the wrath of God is revealed against all sin...unbelief is just one of many sins

Paul says this wrath is revealed now even before men hear the gospel.

Now here is the issue.....all Christians agree in principle that the atonement was a perfect sacrifice...Wd agreed on this:thumbs:
because of their view of man ,and the atonement:thumbs:...they think it is potential for all...depending on man,and mans choice.
we would say that it is perfect in accomplishing it's designed purpose for the church,those who are brought to a saving faith,depending on God's purpose, that he actually purchased,and applies!

Once in a sermon...probably Spurgeon, he spoke of those who claimed a worldwide bridge....that only went half way across......or others who had a narrower bridge that went all the way to the other side.....

So WD..sees the perfection of the cross...as the only real payment which is correct....he just wants it to be applied where the scripture does not apply it.
All who believe this way.....cling to the all, world, everyone, verses...even if clearer passages say otherwise.

No matter how we answer ...he will not accept what is offered at this time.

The scripture does not say sinners...actually pay...as in can make a full payment, because they sin everyday.....
We say men will pay in hell...more as a figure of speech.....not as if literally they could possibly pay what only the cross could pay.

I do not believe the God who declares he will do all His good pleasure,will in any way be unsatisfied.We know he has declared He is WELL PLEASED with His beloved SON....that is in salvation , or damnation of souls.
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Sin was fully conquered at the cross or we could never be conformed to the Image of the Son!!!!

Do you see that when you veer away from the biblical teaching...you open up all of these false views of God....a God who is unsatisfied,sin not being conquered......this alone should indicate the falseness of these ideas.

 

I think we've all been around here long enough to know all the scriptures on both sides of this debate regarding the atonement (if not I can point you to some resources). I suppose I could list them all again, but then it would just go back to debating how that side interprets this verse in opposition to that verse, etc. I think Webdog's point is to support the established view of 'unlimited atonement' (i.e Non-Calvinism) by showing a weakness of the other perspective.

That weakness being that God is NEVER satisfied for sin because those who perish will never cease paying for their sin and thus the wrath of God will never be satisfied. Sin will never be fully conquered in that world view, and scripture clearly teaches that Sin is conquered once and for all time. I hope that clarifies things.

 

I agree. :thumbs:

 

I am a non cal and I do not find most of that in scripture.

 

:thumbs::wavey: Thanks for being objective.

 

Please be more specific.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if you do sin, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely.

2 He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

Now, that verse certainly seems to indicate that God is completely satisfied with regard to the sinfulness of man. BTW, Calvinists here should understand that even many notable Calvinists (especially from the 'Princeton' persuasion) affirm the universality of divine satisfaction for all sin. This is a much more 'orthodox' position than its alternative, which is that God remains unsatisfied for the rest of all eternity for the sin committed by the unsaved.

Is that your view? That God remains unsatisfied for the sin of mankind?

 

I don't know of any scripture that speaks of sin in this way. God being "unsatisfied". ???? What does that mean?

 

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause: That would be a god,who is not God.

 

"The satisfaction view of the atonement is a theory[1] in Christian theology related to the meaning and effect of the death of Jesus Christ and has been traditionally taught in Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed circles. Theologically and historically, the word "satisfaction" does not mean gratification as in common usage, but rather "to make restitution": mending what has been broken, paying back what was taken. It is thus connected with the legal concept of balancing out an injustice. Drawing primarily from the works of Anselm of Canterbury, the satisfaction theory teaches that Christ suffered as a substitute on behalf of humankind satisfying the demands of God's honor by his infinite merit. Anselm regarded his satisfaction view of the atonement as a distinct improvement over the older ransom theory of the atonement, which he saw as inadequate. Anselm's theory was a precursor to the refinements of Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin which introduced the idea of punishment to meet the demands of divine justice."

 

Either I'm too tired from mowing and weed eating yesterday, or tired from working, because I don't understand this thread AT ALL. :laugh:

Here's what I know.
1. People are in hell because God's wrath abides on them. They are still in their sins as Jesus taught.
If the atonement "satisfied" God's wrath against their sin, why are they in hell????

And now I will leave the debate others. I have to go to work.

 

The link above also teaches that....

Calvinists typically argue that Christ's death on the cross paid not a general penalty for all of humanity's sins, but a specific penalty for the sins of individual people (his elect).

So, according to most Calvinists, Christ's atonement is limited in its effect only to those whom God has chosen to be saved, since the debt for sins was paid at a particular point in time (at the crucifixion).

Others, however, argue that the atonement paid for the sins of the whole world. The debt is paid once and for all. God's wrath is appeased once and for all. Sin is conquered, the law is fulfilled and thus the power of sin is destroyed. What Adam's sin destroyed, Christ's cross repaired.

Thus, men aren't judged for breaking the law. Adam is not judged for eating the fruit. Christ did not come to judge men for their wrong doing.

Jn. 12: For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. ​

So what will judge them if not their sin? What condemns them to hell?

"48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.​

Why do they perish?

" They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." - Paul​

Why didn't they enter the promised land?

Heb. 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
​

The wrath can be satisfied for the whole of the body, but the condition unfulfilled by the individual to which the appeal is made. Even in the OT, the priest could bring a sufficient sacrifice for the whole, but if the individual didn't come to the temple to confess their sin it benefitted them not.

They didn't perish for lack of atonement, but for lack of faith.

 

So would you agree then that those that don't believe will not be benefited from the atonement of Christ and therefore have to suffer in hell for the rest of eternity for their sin?

 

The wrath of God is against all sinful world outside Jesus Christ.

The atonement was made in and through Jesus Christ, because Jesus made the atonement for sin and did not have sin of His own so He paid for the sins of those who are in Him. Jesus will not be made to suffer again.

Anyone outside of Jesus will be their own eternal atonement.

This why the Church uses what God has provided for them to elect missionaries to reach as far as the provision was given to them. It goes out and it goes out until it fills the earth.

I am sorry for the bad news that person who never heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. They will face condemnation.

The message cannot be watered down so we can take it, we need the whole truth.

God uses men to spread the Gospel because of the curse, men have to work in the field for the harvest. That is another reason why God had to come not only as the Son of God, but the Son of man, because men have to work the field that is our curse

 

Not at all...God is completely satisfied with the work of the Son in salvation or damnation.

correct:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[QUOTEOthers, however, argue that the atonement paid for the sins of the whole world. The debt is paid once and for all. God's wrath is appeased once and for all. Sin is conquered, the law is fulfilled and thus the power of sin is destroyed. What Adam's sin destroyed, Christ's cross repaired.

Thus, men aren't judged for breaking the law. Adam is not judged for eating the fruit. Christ did not come to judge men for their wrong doing.

][/QUOTE]

This is horrendous...none of it is true...every point is against the teaching of the cross and what was accomplished.