The New Covenant for New Creatures Isaiah 59:20-21 - The Gospel according to Isaiah

[asterisktom]

The New Covenant for New Creatures
Isaiah 59:20-21 - The Gospel according to Isaiah & Paul
​

Some Bible topics are hard to write about because they are obscure and based on difficult Scripture. Others -like this topic - are also hard to write about, but for a different reason: The topic is a rich one. The temptation to overflow the outline is a real one. In fact this very passage has its own inspired commentary, Romans 11:25-36. Paul, combing over this very theme of the New Covenant, ends the chapter with his exuberant doxology, v.33-36:

"Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"


Also - and getting to the point of this article - Paul drew from Isaiah 59:20 and made applications that are often overlooked today.

Here is Isaiah 59:20-21:


“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
Says the LORD.

"As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”

Paul's quotation in Romans 11:25-27:


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

ForthisisMy covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


Coming or Going?
This is a good question. In Isaiah we have Christ, Redeemer, coming to Zion. In Romans we have Christ, the Deliverer, coming out of Zion. The answer is - yes. Both. The fact that Paul quoted from the somewhat variant LXX (Septuagint) shouldn't distract us here. Both are true. The Messiah will come to His own, suddenly coming to His Temple. But He will also, through His earthly ministry, resurrection and presence (Parousia) come out of Zion. He will - through the instruments of those who are His - bring the Gospel message to the four corners of the Earth, gathering His elect. These are the "greater works" which Christ promised His followers would achieve - certainly greater in geographic scope.

Christ will come to Zion, says Isaiah, to those in Jacob who "turn from their transgression". This can easily be misunderstood by those who are not well-read in the Bible as "God helps those who help themselves". But there are many passages that show that we are unable to turn from transgression unless God already has been convicting us. The verse in Isaiah just means Christ will come to His own elect. More on this later in Isaiah.

And how does the Redeemer turn us from our transgression?By His Spirit and His words. The next verse shows us that His Spirit and His words will never depart from us. The Word of God frees us from ourselves, cleanses us, strengthens us, forms Christ in us. This verse in Isaiah has several cross-references: some earlier in the Old Testament, like Joshua 1:8; others in the New Testament, like John 6:63;17:17; Eph. 5:25-27; Heb. 4:12; 1 Pet. 2:2-8.

Christ will come out of Zion, says Paul, and He will - and here is a closer look at our salvation than even Isaiah gave us - turn ungodliness away from Jacob. This is much more than the false notion that "God helps those who help themselves". This is: God helps us to desire to help ourselves. Or, to use another of Paul's verses: He "works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure", Phil. 2:14, and "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age", Titus 2:11-12.

All of Zion will be saved.
Paul's passage is very often misconstrued, as if to say that there will come a time when all of physical Israel will be saved. "But", you might protest, "doesn't Scripture say exactly that?" Yes, it does. But three hermeneutic principals must be kept in mind: Concept, context, cross-reference.

1. Concept (Or Definition, but that would mess up my alliteration!): What "Israel" did Paul mean when he said "All Israel will be saved"? There are times when he refers to physical Israel, like in Rom. 9:3,

"my brethren according to the flesh"


but more often he refers to spiritual Israel. Consider these two passages: Rom. 9:6b-7a and, especially, Rom. 2:27-29

"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham"


" And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

(Continued in next post)

 

[asterisktom]

(Continued from previous post)

This last passage from Rom. 2 shows us most clearly who Paul has in mind when he refers to Israel: those who are circumcised in heart, who live according to the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, not the letter that kills.

2. Context: This is where many, many translations and paraphrases do us a great disservice. How? Well, they effectively isolate "All Israel shall be saved" from the rest of the sentence! Did you know that the original sentence extends both before and after that more famous sound bite? The NIV and others especially separate the previous thought, cutting the sentence up. The sentence should read:

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and so [that is, in this manner] all Israel will be saved..."

There are two clarifications as to all of Israel's being saved.
A. It will be "in this manner" - the manner just described in the previous phrase: It will consist of both Jew and Gentile, the latter taking advantage of a blindness of the former. These two groups, Jews and Gentiles will thus make up the total number of the redeemed, the Israel of God.

B. It will be "as it is written" - according to the two passages cited by Paul. This brings us down to the third hermeneutic principle.


3. Cross-reference: This brings us back, first of all, to our original passage in Isaiah as well as to Jeremiah 31:33-34. Actually, some Bibles see the second part of Paul's quotation to be drawn from Isaiah 27:9, but that passage in Jer. 31 seems to fit better.

At any rate, whether from Isaiah or Jeremiah, the topic is always the New Covenant. This New Covenant is the Spirit of God breathed into us, the words of Christ, enabling ever-growing discernment and joyful obedience. It is Christ in us, the hope of glory. The Word of God dwelling in us richly not only brings out in us not only cheerful, God-praising songs with grace in our hearts, but also enables us to put on Christ more and more completely. This is nothing more nor less than our wonderful Christian new life, growing in grace and faith.

I write all this to show that there is no room in this passage, Romans 11:26a, for this strange notion of all of physical Israel being saved in some future event, by some future stimulus that would have to be contrary to God's usual New Covenant dealing. The Gospel has always been received by faith.

There will never be a time when a multitude of Jews will be so moved by the supposed sight of the nail-prints our Saviour and then mourn so completely that all will pass over from death unto life. God will not go contrary to His Word. This was the very truth the damned rich man stumbled upon too late: If one is unpersuaded by Moses and the prophets they will not be convinced by One coming from the dead. Whether the One comes from the grave or heaven is actually moot.

The treasures of our new life in Christ are invisible. That is why they are of faith, 2 Cor 3:18

"while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal."


The spiritual Zion that we have been studying in Isaiah is invisible but, for all that, it is even more glorious. This Heavenly Jerusalem in the pages of Scripture grows greater and greater, even as the physical one fade and disappears in a cloud of age-ending judgment.

Our Zion today is still growing worldwide. Think of it: The greatest city in the world - and it has only one Door - Christ. And there is only one way to this heavenly city and that is through Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

We don't need to see nail-prints. His word has already pierced our conscience and His Word has healed us and is growing us.

 

[Yeshua1]

(Continued from previous post)

This last passage from Rom. 2 shows us most clearly who Paul has in mind when he refers to Israel: those who are circumcised in heart, who live according to the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, not the letter that kills.

2. Context: This is where many, many translations and paraphrases do us a great disservice. How? Well, they effectively isolate "All Israel shall be saved" from the rest of the sentence! Did you know that the original sentence extends both before and after that more famous sound bite? The NIV and others especially separate the previous thought, cutting the sentence up. The sentence should read:

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and so [that is, in this manner] all Israel will be saved..."

There are two clarifications as to all of Israel's being saved.
A. It will be "in this manner" - the manner just described in the previous phrase: It will consist of both Jew and Gentile, the latter taking advantage of a blindness of the former. These two groups, Jews and Gentiles will thus make up the total number of the redeemed, the Israel of God.

B. It will be "as it is written" - according to the two passages cited by Paul. This brings us down to the third hermeneutic principle.


3. Cross-reference: This brings us back, first of all, to our original passage in Isaiah as well as to Jeremiah 31:33-34. Actually, some Bibles see the second part of Paul's quotation to be drawn from Isaiah 27:9, but that passage in Jer. 31 seems to fit better.

At any rate, whether from Isaiah or Jeremiah, the topic is always the New Covenant. This New Covenant is the Spirit of God breathed into us, the words of Christ, enabling ever-growing discernment and joyful obedience. It is Christ in us, the hope of glory. The Word of God dwelling in us richly not only brings out in us not only cheerful, God-praising songs with grace in our hearts, but also enables us to put on Christ more and more completely. This is nothing more nor less than our wonderful Christian new life, growing in grace and faith.

I write all this to show that there is no room in this passage, Romans 11:26a, for this strange notion of all of physical Israel being saved in some future event, by some future stimulus that would have to be contrary to God's usual New Covenant dealing. The Gospel has always been received by faith.

There will never be a time when a multitude of Jews will be so moved by the supposed sight of the nail-prints our Saviour and then mourn so completely that all will pass over from death unto life. God will not go contrary to His Word. This was the very truth the damned rich man stumbled upon too late: If one is unpersuaded by Moses and the prophets they will not be convinced by One coming from the dead. Whether the One comes from the grave or heaven is actually moot.

The treasures of our new life in Christ are invisible. That is why they are of faith, 2 Cor 3:18

"while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal."


The spiritual Zion that we have been studying in Isaiah is invisible but, for all that, it is even more glorious. This Heavenly Jerusalem in the pages of Scripture grows greater and greater, even as the physical one fade and disappears in a cloud of age-ending judgment.

Our Zion today is still growing worldwide. Think of it: The greatest city in the world - and it has only one Door - Christ. And there is only one way to this heavenly city and that is through Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

We don't need to see nail-prints. His word has already pierced our conscience and His Word has healed us and is growing us.

spiritual isreal are those jews who have received yeshua as their messiah, NOT meaning the new Covenant Church!

All jews that get saved are Spiritual Isreal from throughout time of jesus until his return, and when Christ returns, then shall all Jews alive be reborn, as national isreal will born in a day!

Fulfillment of Ezekiel prophecy of bones becoming flesh and reborn as a body!

 

[asterisktom]

spiritual isreal are those jews who have received yeshua as their messiah, NOT meaning the new Covenant Church!

All jews that get saved are Spiritual Isreal from throughout time of jesus until his return, and when Christ returns, then shall all Jews alive be reborn, as national isreal will born in a day!

Fulfillment of Ezekiel prophecy of bones becoming flesh and reborn as a body!

Have you ever noticed Paul's use of that Ezekiel section in his 2nd Corinthian epistle?

For all Israel to be born in a day would mean that God would have a different way of being saved other than faith in Christ by means of the gospel. It would also mean that Christ's words in John 4 would no longer be true.

In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. Those distinctions are no longer necessary. We all have access to the same salvation.

If you want me to take your disagreement seriously, feel free to make some connection to what I actually wrote.

 

[kyredneck]

" And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Outstanding thread Tom, very well thought out, very informative, and yes it is a very rich topic, thanks.

The passage above always reminds me of Christ's words to/of Nathanael:

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn1:47 (..whose praise is not from men but from God)

 

[revmwc]

Outstanding thread Tom, very well thought out, very informative, and yes it is a very rich topic, thanks.

The passage above always reminds me of Christ's words to/of Nathanael:

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn1:47 (..whose praise is not from men but from God)

Look to me like Tom took some website and posted everything in. Again opinions without true biblical Hermanutics. For if you truly cross-reference back to the prophets you would see that the Jews saw a Messiah coming who would sit on the throne of David in Israel and that the prophecy will be literally fulfilled for true DNA Israel not some replacement theology. Second through the New Testament Paul, Peter, John and others wrote of a returning Messiah, Christ Himself showed John His return in Revelation 19 to come and reign for 1000 years while during that time Satan would be bound. At that time Isaiah 59 and following will be fulfilled in its fulness. Christ sitting upon the throne of David as prophesied in Israel, in Jerusalem just as the O.T. prophisied and the N.T. tells us.

It is a shame someone puts so much time into trying to prove the Bible to be a book of metaphores and myths rather than simply seeing it as God has given it to us.

1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I've tried the Spirit and found it wanting not of God.

Notice this verse it makes things very clear, 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Those who have faith in Christ have overcome the world.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What is promised to Those who overcometh:
1. To be clothed in White Raiment, now notice REveleation 4:4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How are the 24 elders clothed, in White raiment, next look at Revelation 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
How are the armies that accompany Him clothed when He come in judgement, in fine linen clean and white.

Those who overcome are the believers of the church not the O.T. believers in Israel and not the tribulation saints of Revelation 6 through 19. The Church comes with Christ at His return, this couldn't have happened in 70 A.D. as many believers were on the earth and even the apostle John was alive till at least 100 A.D. so the church by just this is not a replacement of nation Israel but a fulfillment of the mystery that the prophets never saw.

 

[revmwc]

Next what do we see those who overcome promised:

2. There names are no blotted out of the book of life but will have their name confessed to the Father and the Angels.

3. Those who overcome, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

They will live in the New Jerusalem which Christ Himself says will come down out of Heaven, when does the New Jerusalem come down out of heaven?

Rev. 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

After the 1000 year reign of Christ (verse 6) upon the earth and then verse 7 satan is loosed after the 1000 year reign. This is literal prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled, for if the Kingdom age started in 70 A.D. then 1070 A.D. the New Jerusalem would be resting upon this earth as seen in Revelation 21 for the old would have passed away.

 

[asterisktom]

Outstanding thread Tom, very well thought out, very informative, and yes it is a very rich topic, thanks.

The passage above always reminds me of Christ's words to/of Nathanael:

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn1:47 (..whose praise is not from men but from God)

Thanks, KyRedneck. I did do a lot of research on this, trying to stay away from commentaries to a large degree, just studying out connections and contexts. As I am sure you can imagine the topic is a labor of love. I feel bad that my series has stalled out at chapter 61. Lord-willing I hope to finish it.

We keep noticing more and more connections and things that could be written about, don't we? Hopefully I will have the grace to just say "No" to pointless arguing and just go about the business that I believe God has called me to.

Thanks very much for the encouragement, brother. I often get a lift from yours as well.

 

[revmwc]

The last thing the Overcomer is promised:
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He will reign with Christ on His throne notice Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Again Christ promise fulfilled for the Church believer, not for a replacement Israel but for those who overcome.

Remember, 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

I have followed 1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:... and found this Preterist teaching wanting proven with the Scripture as the Holy Spirit and Spoken by Christ in the first Chapters of Revelation and this teaching of Preterism has a not the Spirit of God to support it, it is in fact contrary to scripture and even goes against early 1st and 2nd century Church teaching which expected Christ return and believed He would physically return for His Bride the Church. Paul taught it Peter Taught it and Jesus Taught it, and I believe that Christ will physically return and scripture proves it out.

 

[thomas15]

I assume that I'm still on the coveted *tom "iggy" list but seems hard to believe that a discussion of The New Covenant doesn't analyze Jer. 31:31-38 which clearly states who the covenant is with and what the covenant entailes. Then there is Eze 37:15-28, no friend of the covenant crowd either.

Covenant believers in general and Preterist in particular do not take the words of Jesus seriously when he says in Matt 5:17-19 in effect that every detail of prophecy will come to pass. Hebrews 11, a favorite of covenant believers actually in fact argues for a future resurrection of Abraham and his seed to occupy the land promised in Gen 15. This is in agreement with the words of Jesus in Matt 22:23-33 and the parallel passages on this matter.

Of course the biggest problem that covenant theology faces, not counting the fact that the Bible does not spell out a covenant of works, grace and redemption, is the concept that if Israel is no longer a party of the covenant promised to the patriarchs due to disobedience, what gives the church any assurance that Jehovah will not act ain like manner since the church is no better than the Israelites in this regard?

 

[kyredneck]

.....The spiritual Zion that we have been studying in Isaiah is invisible but, for all that, it is even more glorious. This Heavenly Jerusalem in the pages of Scripture grows greater and greater, even as the physical one fade and disappears in a cloud of age-ending judgment....

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal; 4

Ps 87:

1 A Psalm of the sons of Korah; a Song. His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion More than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee.

One of my favorite Old Baptist hymns:

Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken

Glorious things of thee are spoken,
Zion, city of our God!
He, Whose Word cannot be broken,
Formed thee for His own abode.
On the Rock of Ages founded,
What can shake thy sure repose?
With salvation's walls surrounded,
Thou may'st smile at all thy foes.

See! the streams of living waters,
Springing from eternal love;
Well supply thy sons and daughters,
And all fear of want remove:
Who can faint while such a river
Ever flows their thirst t'assuage?
Grace, which like the Lord, the Giver,
Never fails from age to age.

Round each habitation hovering,
See the cloud and fire appear!
For a glory and a cov'ring
Showing that the Lord is near.
Thus deriving from our banner
Light by night and shade by day;
Safe they feed upon the manna
Which He gives them when they pray.

Blest inhabitants of Zion,
Washed in the Redeemer's blood!
Jesus, Whom their souls rely on,
Makes them kings and priests to God.
'Tis His love His people raises,
Over self to reign as kings,
And as priests, His solemn praises
Each for a thank offering brings.

Savior, if of Zion's city,
I through grace a member am,
Let the world deride or pity,
I will glory in Thy Name.
Fading is the worldling's pleasure,
All his boasted pomp and show;
Solid joys and lasting treasure
None but Zion's children know.

 

[kyredneck]

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7

 

[percho]

Have you ever noticed Paul's use of that Ezekiel section in his 2nd Corinthian epistle?

For all Israel to be born in a day would mean that God would have a different way of being saved other than faith in Christ by means of the gospel. It would also mean that Christ's words in John 4 would no longer be true.

In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. Those distinctions are no longer necessary. We all have access to the same salvation.

If you want me to take your disagreement seriously, feel free to make some connection to what I actually wrote.

I more or less agree with you here Tom in that a nation will be born in one day however my personal opinion id that nation will be the kingdom of God.

Along with the line of your thoughts from Isa see also:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Compare with:
Acts 15:16,17 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Jesus will return establish the kingdom of God on the earth with he and those whom he called for his name Ruling.

That is why the elect are predestined. It is not about some for heaven and some for hell. Now to inherit the kingdom of God and to rule forever requires immortality of soul and an incorruptible house for the soul.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

I know our eschatology and kingdom understanding isn't the same but if you can lay that aside for a moment would my understanding not fit according to scripture?

 

[percho]

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7

I did not quote post 11 because of length but let be ask:

Jer. 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The above taken with a reading of the book of Hosea would you not say that
sister Judah is the one that still had/has a husband and that the house of Israel is the sister that is desolate?

 

[percho]

Thanks, KyRedneck. I did do a lot of research on this, trying to stay away from commentaries to a large degree, just studying out connections and contexts. As I am sure you can imagine the topic is a labor of love. I feel bad that my series has stalled out at chapter 61. Lord-willing I hope to finish it.

We keep noticing more and more connections and things that could be written about, don't we? Hopefully I will have the grace to just say "No" to pointless arguing and just go about the business that I believe God has called me to.

Thanks very much for the encouragement, brother. I often get a lift from yours as well.

Keep going brother for chapter 66 is a must for my understanding especially when used with Psalm 139 concerning the body of Christ.

139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.

Does that look like those written in the Lamb's book not yet not made perfect? A pre resurrection concept of the resurrected Christ in verse 15. Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; I should have pasted 15: My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Have you ever noticed Paul's use of that Ezekiel section in his 2nd Corinthian epistle?

For all Israel to be born in a day would mean that God would have a different way of being saved other than faith in Christ by means of the gospel. It would also mean that Christ's words in John 4 would no longer be true.

In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. Those distinctions are no longer necessary. We all have access to the same salvation.

If you want me to take your disagreement seriously, feel free to make some connection to what I actually wrote.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:..correct

[spiritual isreal are those jews who have received yeshua as their messiah, NOT meaning the new Covenant Church!
/QUOTE]

No...this is clearly against biblical teaching.

The church is God's eternal purpose.....Christian Israel.

 

[revmwc]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:..correct

[spiritual isreal are those jews who have received yeshua as their messiah, NOT meaning the new Covenant Church!
/QUOTE]

No...this is clearly against biblical teaching.

The church is God's eternal purpose.....Christian Israel.

Of course the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect, and seems very clear that God was talking about the Physical seed of Abraham not a spiritual one.

Genesis 13:14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

18Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

Verse 15 the land in which Abraham walked would be his and his seeds forever.

Genesis 12:7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

8And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

The Land is Abrahams and His physical seeds not spiritual. the Hebrew "Zera" is used here which means:

seed, sowing, offspring
a sowing
seed
semen virile
offspring, descendants, posterity, children
of moral quality
a practitioner of righteousness

Seems real clear what was said it would be His Physical offspring from his DNA. So God still has a Covenant in effect with Nation Israel as decendnts of Abraham to give them the land which they have never fully possessed byt they will because God promised it to them.

 

[asterisktom]

I assume that I'm still on the coveted *tom "iggy" list but seems hard to believe that a discussion of The New Covenant doesn't analyze Jer. 31:31-38 which clearly states who the covenant is with and what the covenant entailes. Then there is Eze 37:15-28, no friend of the covenant crowd either.

You are not on my "iggy list". Only two people are there, I think. One who specifically requested to be on it. Why, do you want to be on it?

You actually brought up some good points, but coupled with conclusions that are wrong. I hope to write more on these when I have time later. In fact I wrote several posts specifically on those passages that you imagine are so deadly for my position. On the contrary, they are foundational. I am referring to that Jeremiah passage (on which I wrote 4 articles) and the Ezekiel passage (on which I wrote).

 

[asterisktom]

Covenant believers in general and Preterist in particular do not take the words of Jesus seriously when he says in Matt 5:17-19 in effect that every detail of prophecy will come to pass.

You claim to have carefully studied the Preterist position - then you say this. Perhaps you just studied some articles by Dee Dee, Ice or Riddlebarger on Preterism, because you clearly do not understand it. I want to believe otherwise about this claim of yours, Thomas, but so far you haven't demonstrate very well your understanding of our position.

If you did you would know that that passage in Matt. 5 is especially useful to Preterism. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, yes, I wrote an article on this too. I believe I even posted it here.

The Law: All or Nothing? Done Away or Still Today?
There is not a third, modified choice. Not according to Christ's Promise

...

Of course the biggest problem that covenant theology faces, not counting the fact that the Bible does not spell out a covenant of works, grace and redemption, is the concept that if Israel is no longer a party of the covenant promised to the patriarchs due to disobedience, what gives the church any assurance that Jehovah will not act ain like manner since the church is no better than the Israelites in this regard?

Two things. I do not believe in a supposed Covenant of Works either. I believe that Augustus Strong, of Concordance fame, said it best. When asked when he thought the Covenant of Works began, answered that it was in 1611, at the Council of Dordt.

The assurance that God will not "act in like manner" to the church of the New Covenant is from several verse. One passage is John 4, where Christ speaks of the higher, spiritual nature of the kingdom. It is no longer tied to a place and a race. Jerusalem n longer has spiritual significance, a future Temple having no longer any connection to anything of God. That was all fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:..correct



Of course the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect, and seems very clear that God was talking about the Physical seed of Abraham not a spiritual one.Genesis 13:14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

18Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

Verse 15 the land in which Abraham walked would be his and his seeds forever.

Genesis 12:7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

8And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

The Land is Abrahams and His physical seeds not spiritual. the Hebrew "Zera" is used here which means:

seed, sowing, offspring
a sowing
seed
semen virile
offspring, descendants, posterity, children
of moral quality
a practitioner of righteousness

Seems real clear what was said it would be His Physical offspring from his DNA. So God still has a Covenant in effect with Nation Israel as decendnts of Abraham to give them the land which they have never fully possessed byt they will because God promised it to them.

Of course the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect, and seems very clear that God was talking about the Physical seed of Abraham not a spiritual one.

The NT explains the Spiritual was what was in view


This is the issue right here. The NT is clear the promise of the Abrahamic covenant was to seed singular....Christ.....and...US In HIM.....

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Brother.......one new man IN Christ.....one...not two:thumbs::love2: