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Featured What is Lordship Salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, May 23, 2012.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Back to the OP, this same passage in John 12 refutes Lordship Salvation.

    Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
    43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

    These verses say that some among the chief rulers believed on Jesus, but because of the Pharisees they would not publically confess him as they would be put out of the synagogue.

    It also says they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God, yet these men were believers.

    Nicodemus was one such person, he came to Jesus by night so that it would not be known. Later on we see he see he defended Jesus (John 7:50-51), and brought spices for his burial.

    Jhn 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
    39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
    40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

    So here we see two believers, Joseph of Arimathaea, and Nicodemus, but neither completely forsook the world to follow Jesus.
     
    #141 Winman, May 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2012
  2. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Perhaps I'm not understanding you. Are you inferring that man has the choice over different possibilities and that somehow man's choice overrides God's will of decree? That's the way I understood what you wrote. If I understood incorrectly then please correct me so I can apologize.
     
    #142 Herald, May 27, 2012
  3. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    Define "will of decree," which I neither brought up nor inferred anything about. My statements and the Bible passage mentioned were meant to negate the concept that certain foreknowledge of a possible event must predestine the occurrence of that event. Why not interact with what I wrote instead of blasting with accusations of inflammatory dialogue?
     
    #143 jonathan.borland, May 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2012
  4. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Jonathan, well we don't need to have foreknowledge about an event before the occurrence of that event; but God, being God, inherently possess such foreknowledge. One example would be the calling of Jeremiah before he was even formed in the womb (Jer. 1:5).

    God's will of decree is a theological term used to describe that whatsoever God decrees will be brought to pass.
     
    #144 Herald, May 28, 2012
  5. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    On what basis does God make his decrees? Is foreknowledge involved? If so, how?
     
    #145 jonathan.borland, May 28, 2012
  6. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Take the call of Jeremiah as an example. Did God call Jeremiah because He knew Jeremiah would be obedient or did He call Jeremiah in the absence of any action on Jeremiah's part? If the answer is the former than God's decree is really nothing more than God's wish. In this scenario Jeremiah could have thwarted God's intention by choosing not to positively respond to God's call. In the latter scenario God brought to bear the circumstances that lead to Jeremiah's birth and his being a prophet. What if the answer is neither of these scenarios? What if God did indeed bring to bear the circumstances that lead to Jeremiah's birth and call; but Jeremiah also made a willful decision to respond to God's call? In this case God's sovereignty, through His will of decree, is preserved while recognizing that man's mental/emotional faculties are employed. There is no equality between the two (God's sovereignty vs. man's choice) inasmuch as God is indisputably sovereign.

    On what basis does God make His decrees?

    The Reformers viewed God's will of decree primarily as a way of expressing God's sovereignty in election. But by extension this passage in Ephesians puts forth the principle that God makes His decisions based on self-counsel.
     
    #146 Herald, May 28, 2012
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    This is false. If God does indeed possess infallible foreknowledge, he knew that Jeremiah would positively answer his call.

    Just because you know something in advance does not mean you have to cause it. I gave the analogy of eclipses, astronomers can accurately predict an eclipse hundreds of years before it occurs. This does not mean they caused the eclipse.

    The Reformed view begins with the presupposition that God cannot accurately foresee what will happen in the future unless he causes it. This is pure assumption.

    What is supernatural about knowing what you have determined to do in the future? I could predict I will have a tuna sandwich for lunch tomorrow, and then take all the steps to bring it about. Big deal, ANYBODY can do this.

    The non-Reformed view is that God can infallibly foresee the future before it occurs. We don't understand this, but we believe God has this supernatural ability.

    Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, it was prophesied hundreds of years before it actually occurred. But God did not cause Judas to commit this sin, as scripture tells us God never tempts any man to sin (James 1:13).

    Your view contradicts this verse in James. You believe God had to determine Judas would sin and betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

    God did determine that Jesus would go to the cross and die for our sins, but he did not determine Judas's sin. God simply foreknew what Judas would do of his own free will and used this sin to bring about his purpose.

    Judas had a choice, and Judas made a choice, God simply infallibly knew which choice Judas would make before it actually happened. This is foreknowledge.
     
    #147 Winman, May 28, 2012
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