What is Lordship Salvation?

[Herald]

His view (agedman) is the Calvinistic position, and the way that more than 90% of Calvinists look at this subject (my guess), that faith is a gift of God.

Actually, Arminians believe faith is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The gift of God is grace, salvation, and faith. Linguistically there is a debate as to the antecedent of "the gift of God." Is it grace? Saved (salvation)? Faith? Soteriologically all three are dependent on each other, so there is a solid case to be made that faith is part of the gift of God in this passage. Scofield held this view, and certainly no one is going to accuse him of being a Calvinist! He believed that faith was a gift of God but man was still responsible for exercising the gift. Ergo it fit in quite well with his Arminian soteriology.

 

[Winman]

Regeneration is defined as, "the action of the Holy Spirit , who transforms the lives of those given the gift of faith so they experience a "new birth" and salvation through Jesus Christ."*

The sinner has a problem according to Ephesians 2:1 and 1 Corinthians 2:14. The sinner is spiritually dead and incapable of a positive response to the Gospel. Now, before you say it, I know that you disagree with this interpretation of Scripture. But understand that the hermeneutic Iconoclast is following traces as far back as at least Augustine, so it's not a novel idea. Being spiritually dead the sinner cannot believe apart from a work of God making him capable of believing. That is the Reformed understanding of Ephesians 2:4-5, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved)," It was while the sinner was spiritually dead [nekros = dead, as in a corpse] that God made him alive; alive before any act of belief [faith] on the sinner's part. That is what the Reformed believe the bible teaches about regeneration. I do understand that the Arminian view is that faith precedes regeneration. We just have a systemic disagreement that is inherent to our theological presuppositions.




*Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms, Donald K. McKim.

You ASSUME total inability is true, when John 1:12 shows exactly the opposite.

John 1;12 says to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become the sons of God. They were not born again or regenerated until AFTER they received and believed on Jesus.

So, which do you believe, the scriptures or the doctrines of men?

 

[Herald]

You ASSUME total inability is true, when John 1:12 shows exactly the opposite.

John 1;12 says to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become the sons of God. They were not born again or regenerated until AFTER they received and believed on Jesus.

So, which do you believe, the scriptures or the doctrines of men?

First, it's really not helpful to throw out bombs such as, "So, which do you believe, the scriptures or the doctrines of men?" Of course I believe the Scriptures. I just disagree with you on the interpretation of Scripture. I'm charitable enough to extend you the courtesy of your view even if I disagree with it.

As far as John 1, look at the following verse:

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, I can say, "LOOK! They were not born again of their own will but of the will of God!"

All this to prove a point. The both of us - you and me - have a theological presupposition. Before we even open the pages of Scripture we're approaching it with a formed opinion about how Scripture operates. That is why the both of us can look at the exact same passage and come away from it with two opposite interpretations. So, when we both have our cannons pointed at each other, accusing the other of following doctrines of men, how does that display grace and Christian charity?

 

[DHK]

Actually, Arminians believe faith is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The gift of God is grace, salvation, and faith. Linguistically there is a debate as to the antecedent of "the gift of God." Is it grace? Saved (salvation)? Faith? Soteriologically all three are dependent on each other, so there is a solid case to be made that faith is part of the gift of God in this passage. Scofield held this view, and certainly no one is going to accuse him of being a Calvinist! He believed that faith was a gift of God but man was still responsible for exercising the gift. Ergo it fit in quite well with his Arminian soteriology.

I am only going by my experience on this board, and what I have read elsewhere. Most Calvinists on this board would agree that faith is a gift of God. I have debated against this point (for I don't believe it) all throughout four or five threads now. I have a pretty good idea where various people stand. Look at what they are throwing Winman's way for saying it is not a gift of God.

It refers to salvation. That is quite apparent when the entire sentence is broken down grammatically. Did you ever have to diagram sentences in High School? How about diagram sentences in Greek classes? I have done both. The entire sentence is speaking about that very small statement: "you are saved." Every thing revolves around it, including. "it is the gift of God. What is the gift of God? Salvation is the gift of God. Just as "Salvation is not of works," and "lest any man should boast" (of their salvation). Every phrase in verses 8,9 have to do with saved or salvation--every phrase!

 

[Herald]

I am only going by my experience on this board, and what I have read elsewhere. Most Calvinists on this board would agree that faith is a gift of God. I have debated against this point (for I don't believe it) all throughout four or five threads now. I have a pretty good idea where various people stand. Look at what they are throwing Winman's way for saying it is not a gift of God.

It refers to salvation. That is quite apparent when the entire sentence is broken down grammatically. Did you ever have to diagram sentences in High School? How about diagram sentences in Greek classes? I have done both. The entire sentence is speaking about that very small statement: "you are saved." Every thing revolves around it, including. "it is the gift of God. What is the gift of God? Salvation is the gift of God. Just as "Salvation is not of works," and "lest any man should boast" (of their salvation). Every phrase in verses 8,9 have to do with saved or salvation--every phrase!

Greek grammar is not the same as English grammar. There are some excellent scholars who would disagree with you. But hey - as I was saying to Winman, we all have our theological presuppositions. I certainly have them. I'm under no illusion that I am going to convince anyone on this board to see things my way. I'm simply offering my opinion which is worth about as much as anyone else's opinion.

 

[Winman]

First, it's really not helpful to throw out bombs such as, "So, which do you believe, the scriptures or the doctrines of men?" Of course I believe the Scriptures. I just disagree with you on the interpretation of Scripture. I'm charitable enough to extend you the courtesy of your view even if I disagree with it.

As far as John 1, look at the following verse:

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, I can say, "LOOK! They were not born again of their own will but of the will of God!"

All this to prove a point. The both of us - you and me - have a theological presupposition. Before we even open the pages of Scripture we're approaching it with a formed opinion about how Scripture operates. That is why the both of us can look at the exact same passage and come away from it with two opposite interpretations. So, when we both have our cannons pointed at each other, accusing the other of following doctrines of men, how does that display grace and Christian charity?

Verse 13 starts with the word "which" which points back to the "them" in verse 12. Verse 12 says to "them" that received Jesus, to "them" God gave the power to become the sons of God, even "them" which believe on his name. Verse 13 is simply explaining what "becoming" a son of God is, it is being born again by God. A man cannot will himself to be born again, this operation can only be performed by God, nevertheless, God only regenerates those that believe.

Ephesians 2 does not even mention faith until verse 8. It says absolutely nothing about a man being unable to believe. Spiritual death means separation from God in sins, not inability. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead when they sinned, yet they were able to respond positively to God and come to him when he called.

As far as 1 Cor 2:14, if you go back to verse 12 you will see these persons have already believed.


1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Does this verse say we have received the Spirit that we might "believe"? No. It says we have received the Spirit that we might know the "things" that are freely given us.

Now go to Galatians 3;

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit by believing. Believing occurs first, receiving the Spirit comes next. Ephesians 1:13 also says this.

So, these persons in 1 Corinthians 2:12 had already received the Spirit, so they had already believed. Now, upon receiving the Spirit, now they are able to know these "things" of God.

But that is not all, this is also shown in Proverbs.

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

This verse shows we #1 TURN. We repent at God's reproof and turn to him in trust. Then this verse says #2 God will pour out his Spirit unto us. Receiving the Spirit follows turning to God in repentance and faith.

But now notice what happens next, because it directly relates to 1 Cor 2:12 and 14. Now this verse says #3 I will make my words known unto you.

So, we repent at God's reproof, we next receive the Spirit, and third we are given understanding to know these "deep things of God".

1 Cor 2:14 does not say a man is unable to believe the gospel, it says an unregenerate man cannot understand these "deep things" of the Spirit.

Show me any verse that says all men do not have the ability to believe. You will not be able to show it, because it doesn't exist. It is a purely man-made doctrine not supported by scripture.

 

[Herald]

Verse 13 starts with the word "which" which points back to the "them" in verse 12. Verse 12 says to "them" that received Jesus, to "them" God gave the power to become the sons of God, even "them" which believe on his name. Verse 13 is simply explaining what "becoming" a son of God is, it is being born again by God. A man cannot will himself to be born again, this operation can only be performed by God, nevertheless, God only regenerates those that believe.

Ephesians 2 does not even mention faith until verse 8. It says absolutely nothing about a man being unable to believe. Spiritual death means separation from Gods in sins, not inability. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead when they sinned, yet they were able to respond positively to God and come to him when he called.

As far as 1 Cor 2:14, if you go back to verse 12 you will see these persons have already believed.


1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Does this verse say we have received the Spirit that we might "believe"? No. It says we have received the Spirit that we might know the "things" that are freely given us.

Now go to Galatians 3;

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit by believing. Believing occurs first, receiving the Spirit comes next. Ephesians 1:13 also says this.

So, these persons in 1 Corinthians 2:12 had already received the Spirit, so they had already believed. Now, upon receiving the Spirit, now they are able to know these "things" of God.

But that is not all, this is also shown in Proverbs.

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

This verse shows we #1 TURN. We repent at God's reproof and turn to him in trust. Then this verse says #2 God will pour out his Spirit unto us. Receiving the Spirit follows turning to God in repentance and faith.

But now notice what happens next, because it directly relates to 1 Cor 2:12 and 14. Now this verse says #3 I will make my words known unto you.

So, we repent at God's reproof, we next receive the Spirit, and third we are given understanding to know these "deep things of God".

1 Cor 2:14 does not say a man is unable to believe the gospel, it says an unregenerate man cannot understand these "deep things" of the Spirit.

Show me any verse that says all men do not have the ability to believe. You will not be able to show it, because it doesn't exist. It is a purely man-made doctrine not supported by scripture.

You can't let it go, can you? Grace to you.

 

[agedman]

Uh, no. You are reading the Greek language as if it has no inflection (English has very little...).

If you will bother looking at the underlying manuscript, you will see that it is not hagiadzo, but hagiadzomenous, which is the present, passive participle form of hagiadzo. "Passive" means that it is not something that you accomplish, but something done to you. "Present" means that it is current, and in this form of the Greek, continuous. "Participle" is what you might refer to as "ing" words.

So yes, "being sanctified" is the proper translation. "Are sanctified" is completely wrong, as it does not convey either the continuous sense nor the participle form.

The text says we are "being sanctified" not "are sanctified."

You would then disagree with the following translation works:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: mia gar prosphora teteleioken (3SRAI) eis to dienekes tous agiazomenous. (PPPMPA)

Amplified: For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

Barclay: For by one offering and for all time he perfectly gave us that cleansing we need to enter into the presence of God. (Westminster Press)

Wuest: for by one offering He has brought to completion forever those who are set apart for God and His service. (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

Geneva Study Bible: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

American Standard Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The adoption of "being" replacing "are" is actually not as accurate a translation as you desire, for these eminent works would not have gotten it wrong. And the actual grammatical structure does not support "being" and does support "are." I may be old, and my translation work at times regretfully slow, but I still maintain as accurate accounting as possible. I have posted, more than once, asking of the Greek scholarship of the BB folks to always verify that my work remains accurate. I do not doubt that one day, I shall no more be able to work as I now do which is not nearly how I used to be - but such is this aged man.

The believer is not being sanctified, they are sanctified. There is no half way partial birthing process that takes place. Sanctification is a decree by appointment, not a process of one being made into.

When all the temple/tabernacle items were finished they were NOT sanctified until the anointment of oil of the apothecary was put upon them. They were not further modified nor upgraded to being sanctified. They were declared sanctified.

The believers are in the same standing in Christ. Believers are sanctified.

 

[Winman]

You can't let it go, can you? Grace to you.

I could say the same to you. At least I can present scripture to support what I believe, you post creeds of men.

Show any scripture that says men do not have the ability to believe, you can't do it, because it doesn't exist. I on the other hand have shown you scripture that shows men can believe before they receive the Spirit.

You use scripture that doesn't even mention faith (Eph 2, 1 Cor 2:14) and insert your view into it. None of these scriptures say a man is unable to believe.

Maybe it is you that should let go.

 

[agedman]

Show any scripture that says men do not have the ability to believe, you can't do it, because it doesn't exist. I on the other hand have shown you scripture that shows men can believe before they receive the Spirit.

Winman,

If I showed you a Scripture would you in fact recant your view?

John 12

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.​

I suppose though that you consider any man can and does have the ability to believe.

Then you would dismiss this verse in Acts 13

"48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."​

 

[DHK]

Winman,

If I showed you a Scripture would you in fact recant your view?

John 12

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.​

I suppose though that you consider any man can and does have the ability to believe.

Then you would dismiss this verse in Acts 13

"48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."​

If you had quoted it in context it would have made more sense.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

They had the choice to believe. They chose not to believe. Their choosing not to believe was a fulfillment of prophesy as you began to quote from verse 38. But you conveniently left out verse 37 which sets the entire prophecy in its context.

 

[agedman]

If you had quoted it in context it would have made more sense.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

They had the choice to believe. They chose not to believe. Their choosing not to believe was a fulfillment of prophesy as you began to quote from verse 38. But you conveniently left out verse 37 which sets the entire prophecy in its context.

But winman desired, "Show any scripture that says men do not have the ability to believe..."

He didn't place any conditions as to why they could not believe.

I responded to his demand.

The verse says that they "could not believe;" therefore the condition is met.

 

[Havensdad]

You would then disagree with the following translation works:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: mia gar prosphora teteleioken (3SRAI) eis to dienekes tous agiazomenous. (PPPMPA)

Amplified: For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

Barclay: For by one offering and for all time he perfectly gave us that cleansing we need to enter into the presence of God. (Westminster Press)

Wuest: for by one offering He has brought to completion forever those who are set apart for God and His service. (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

Geneva Study Bible: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

American Standard Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The adoption of "being" replacing "are" is actually not as accurate a translation as you desire, for these eminent works would not have gotten it wrong. And the actual grammatical structure does not support "being" and does support "are." I may be old, and my translation work at times regretfully slow, but I still maintain as accurate accounting as possible. I have posted, more than once, asking of the Greek scholarship of the BB folks to always verify that my work remains accurate. I do not doubt that one day, I shall no more be able to work as I now do which is not nearly how I used to be - but such is this aged man.

The believer is not being sanctified, they are sanctified. There is no half way partial birthing process that takes place. Sanctification is a decree by appointment, not a process of one being made into.

When all the temple/tabernacle items were finished they were NOT sanctified until the anointment of oil of the apothecary was put upon them. They were not further modified nor upgraded to being sanctified. They were declared sanctified.

The believers are in the same standing in Christ. Believers are sanctified.

You do not have the slightest knowledge of Greek, if you do not understand what I have posted to be true. These are very basic principles of Greek inflection. "Are" is not an accurate translation.

If you have any knowledge of translations at all, you should understand that translations are a balance of accuracy with readability. Some translations, such as the ESV, will give more "clunky" readings for the sake of accuracy. Others give a "smoother" less accurate translation.

I am almost surprised that you tout yourself as a serious scholar, and yet quote sources such questionable sources as the Amplified Bible.

Lastly, JUSTIFICATION, being "made perfect", is a decree. SANCTIFICATION, the fleshly reality that is gradually brought into concourse with this declaration throughout the course of ones life, most certainly is not.

ESV:

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Jamieson Fausset and Brown:

"them that are sanctified" — rather as Greek, “them that are being sanctified.” The sanctification (consecration to God) of the elect (1Pe_1:2) believers is perfect in Christ once for all (see on Heb_10:10). (Contrast the law, Heb_7:19; Heb_9:9; Heb_10:1). The development of that sanctification is progressive.

Robertsons Word Pictures:

Them that are sanctified (tous hagiazomenous). Articular participle (accusative case) present passive of hagiazō . . . because of the process still going

Wilmington's Bible Handbook:

Christ’s death “perfected” or sanctified, once for all, “those whom he is making holy” (10:14). Sanctification is both an accomplished fact and an ongoing process:
Willmington, H. L.: Willmington's Bible Handbook. Wheaton, Ill. : Tyndale House Publishers, 1997, S. 759

The Bible Reader's Companion:

“Being made holy” (10:14). Christ not only makes us righteous in God’s sight. He has power to make us progressively holy in our lives here on earth.
Richards, Lawrence O.: The Bible Readers Companion. electronic ed. Wheaton : Victor Books, 1991; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996, S. 864

NIV Application Commentary:

The reference to God's people, the object of this act of perfecting, is communicated with the present passive participle "hagiazomenous," translated, "who are being made holy." This reference could be taken as a remark on the ongoing process of sanctification for the believer.

Just a small taste. :tonofbricks:

 

[Havensdad]

If you had quoted it in context it would have made more sense.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

They had the choice to believe. They chose not to believe. Their choosing not to believe was a fulfillment of prophesy as you began to quote from verse 38. But you conveniently left out verse 37 which sets the entire prophecy in its context.

Where does the text say they had a choice? The word "choice" is nowhere in the text. It says they didn't believe. We agree on this fact. Now, why didn't they believe? The text tells us it is because God has "blinded there eyes and hardened their heart."

Don't you ever get weary of defending words and ideas that are not found in the scripture, to decry things that are plainly spoken?

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 23 :
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”

Luke 11:
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]


We know the reason why and the way to the truth and did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?

 

[agedman]

You do not have the slightest knowledge of Greek, if you do not understand what I have posted to be true. These are very basic principles of Greek inflection. "Are" is not an accurate translation.

If you have any knowledge of translations at all, you should understand that translations are a balance of accuracy with readability. Some translations, such as the ESV, will give more "clunky" readings for the sake of accuracy. Others give a "smoother" less accurate translation.

I am almost surprised that you tout yourself as a serious scholar, and yet quote sources such questionable sources as the Amplified Bible.

Lastly, JUSTIFICATION, being "made perfect", is a decree. SANCTIFICATION, the fleshly reality that is gradually brought into concourse with this declaration throughout the course of ones life, most certainly is not.

I posted multiple translations (including without bias to those I may not view as completely reliable) that boast use of original source manuscripts and multiple translators of eminence and scholarship that refute your view, I would suggest your reasoning is a bit faulty.

That or the scholarship of the translators leaves them with "not have(ing) the slightest knowledge of Greek"


You stated, "Lastly, JUSTIFICATION, being "made perfect", is a decree. SANCTIFICATION, the fleshly reality that is gradually brought into concourse with this declaration throughout the course of ones life, most certainly is not."

Perhaps you are correct, however as you search the Scriptures more upon this matter, and post in "progress or no progress" such verses and the context which show sanctification is "gradually brought..." we can further the discussion there.

Despite your assertion on this verse, which I have shown is not accurate according to the multiple translators, I have not found such (gradually brought...) a verse anywhere in the Scriptures, perhaps you will.

But be sure to follow the OP of that thread.

 

[DHK]

Where does the text say they had a choice? The word "choice" is nowhere in the text. It says they didn't believe. We agree on this fact. Now, why didn't they believe? The text tells us it is because God has "blinded there eyes and hardened their heart."

Don't you ever get weary of defending words and ideas that are not found in the scripture, to decry things that are plainly spoken?

Where does it say they didn't have a choice?

John 12:36-37 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

The choice:
While you have the light believe in the light.

Yet they believed not on him.

There was a choice.

If you cannot see there was not a choice then you have made a choice not to believe.

 

[McWilliams]

Lastly, JUSTIFICATION, being "made perfect", is a decree. SANCTIFICATION, the fleshly reality that is gradually brought into concourse with this declaration throughout the course of ones life, most certainly is not.

Justification is being 'declared' perfect in God's sight and is not being 'made perfect' for as we well know we remain sinners until we are glorified at death. Sanctification is a progressive growth in Christ process that begins at Justification and continues until we are glorified.
2 Cor 5: 17-21 It is a process of imputation where our sin is placed on Christ while His righteousness is placed on us. Soli deo gloria!

 

[Winman]

Winman,

If I showed you a Scripture would you in fact recant your view?

John 12

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.​

I suppose though that you consider any man can and does have the ability to believe.

Then you would dismiss this verse in Acts 13

"48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."​

These verses are not speaking of all men, but very specific men. If you would have gone one verse more you would see this.

Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Many of the chief rulers DID believe on Jesus. So, these verses are not teaching that all men do not have the ability to believe.

And why would God have to blind them if they could not see? Do you need to put a blindfold on a blind man?

No, these are men that God "gave over" to believe a lie as described in Romans 1. It is a judgment of God because of their obstinance and continual rebellion.

It is true we need the grace of God to believe. Without the conviction and revelation of the Holy Spirit through the word of God, no man could possibly believe on Jesus. But if a man continually rejects this conviction and revelation, at a certain point God will remove his grace. He will no longer attempt to convince and persuade a man. This is what is meant when the scriptures says God "gave them over" to a reprobate mind. This is when men are blinded.

And, if you read just several verses more, you will see it is a choice not to believe.

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

These men "rejected" Jesus. It was a conscious decision.

A blind man cannot choose to see, but a seeing man can close his eyes and reject the light. To reject something, you must by definition have the ability to accept something.

These verses you quoted in no way prove or say that all men are unable to believe.

 

[Havensdad]

Where does it say they didn't have a choice?

John 12:36-37 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

The choice:
While you have the light believe in the light.

Yet they believed not on him.

There was a choice.

If you cannot see there was not a choice then you have made a choice not to believe.

There is no "Choice" in that voice at all. The only "Choice" in that text, is the choice of the Maker, who has "Blinded their eyes."

Choice is specifically negated. Joh 12:39 "Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,"


Could:dunami "to be able to do something"

That is very clear. Why don't you just accept what it says?