WestminsterMan
New Member
You set up a straw man in order to knock him down. No one here has stated the Mary can do anything without Christ or add anything to His role. That's you faulty premise.
WM
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Did the Virgin mary REALLY Appear At fatima?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
You set up a straw man in order to knock him down. No one here has stated the Mary can do anything without Christ or add anything to His role. That's you faulty premise.
WM
It has happened many a time. The pilot has a heart attack. The pilot must be able to take over in ALL functions. He is trained to do so.
(My father was in the air force).
To the Catholics Mary is God; in fact there is a movement to make her a "fourth" member of the trinity. That is for those that don't know math.
Those attributes that are to be ascribed and attributed to God alone are ascribed to Mary.
Omniscience: Mary is considered to be all knowing. She must be when all the members of the RCC world wide pray (and many silently) to Mary to know what their innermost thoughts are. How would she know their prayers which are deep in their thoughts. Not every one prays aloud. In fact how does a mute person pray? Since when, did Mary a Jew, learn all the languages of the world? She is omniscient? All knowing now?
This attribute belongs only to God. Not even John admitted he could understand all the languages he heard when he heard those in heaven speaking in every language.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
--Could he understand every language he heard? He does not admit that he could.
Omniscience belongs only to God.
The RCC makes Mary a God by making her omniscient.
2. They make Mary omnipresent.
Mary is one individual. She is in the grave. Her spirit is in heaven. What God allows her to see is not up to you to decide. Heaven wouldn't be heaven if the saved in heaven could watch continuously all the heartache and sorrow that their loved ones had to endure, and all the wickedness that goes on in this world millennium after millennium. What kind of heaven is that when the saved only get "horror movies" to watch?
But the RCC has Mary flitting about from person to person so she can hear them pray. How else would she know what they pray, unless she is there, present to here them pray. She must be omnipresent.
3. They make Mary omnipotent. She is able to do anything (just about). That is, she is able to answer any prayer that the Catholic prays, even to the granting of salvation. She is the redemptrix. Prayers of salvation are frequently found among the literature of Catholic saints.
This makes Mary, a God. This makes Catholicism polytheistic, like Hinduism.
Fire up the fire-pit .... heretics a flame:laugh:
Glad you pointed that out. It's these kinds of statements that makes it obvious that Yeshua1 doesn't know or understand Catholic teaching. The Catechism is the official teaching of the Church. I would challenge Yeshua1 to show us by using the Catechism that the Catholic faith teaches that 'Mary can do something without Christ or adds to His role as our ONLY mediator and advocate. I asked Yeshua1 before about the intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—which in no way interferes with Christ’s mediatorship. There are four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, where Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:1–4. So intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator. Where Yeshua1 and others on this board REALLY differ as to Mary (and the saints) intercession is in Catholics asking Christians in heaven to intercede because 'Isn't this conjuring the dead?' Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration Matt. 17:3. So obviously there are times that those who have passed before us have had a role here. I believe there is a huge difference between a seance and conjuring spirits in order to have them speak to us and humbly asking a Christian in Heaven to pray for us. One is an occult practice of which purpose is to get 'secret' information. The other is simply asking a saint to intercede to God on our behalf.
mandym does not understand what 'co-redemptrix' means. Mandym needs to understand also that the Church does not teach (never has and never will) that Mary as Co-redemptrix is equal to Christ. “Co” is from the Latin “cum,“ meaning “with”. “Trix” is a feminine suffix, so the word means “the woman with the redeemer”---the woman with the One (Jesus) doing the act of redemption.
Eve participated in the fall by her consent and pride. Mary, though cooperated with the redemption of man by her consent and humility as handmaid of the Lord. She gave Jesus His body, and His body is what saved us.
jesus is ONLY Mediator between God and man, ONLY High Priest, we have DIRECT access now to God the father, we are right NOW saints and priests to God...
Again, what does mary bring to the table for you?
Who said anyone else but Jesus is the ONLY Mediator between God and man? Catholics believe that Jesus is our ONLY Mediator. You just don't know the difference between a Mediator and an intercessor. If I pray for you, then I intercede for you. You still have not answered my question about you asking other Christians to pray for you. Maybe you don't do that. If you do ask others to pray for you then you are guilty (by your definition of mediator) of doing the same thing you accuse Catholics of doing.
You have asked over and over 'what does Mary bring to the table?' We have answered over and over, 'she intercedes for us' in the same way the Christians YOU ask to pray for you intercedes. Now please go back and actually read the posts because I really don't think you have done so are you would stop asking questions that have already been answered.
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To the Catholics Mary is God; in fact there is a movement to make her a "fourth" member of the trinity. That is for those that don't know math.
Those attributes that are to be ascribed and attributed to God alone are ascribed to Mary.
Omniscience: Mary is considered to be all knowing. She must be when all the members of the RCC world wide pray (and many silently) to Mary to know what their innermost thoughts are. How would she know their prayers which are deep in their thoughts. Not every one prays aloud. In fact how does a mute person pray? Since when, did Mary a Jew, learn all the languages of the world? She is omniscient? All knowing now?
This attribute belongs only to God. Not even John admitted he could understand all the languages he heard when he heard those in heaven speaking in every language.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
--Could he understand every language he heard? He does not admit that he could.
Omniscience belongs only to God.
The RCC makes Mary a God by making her omniscient.
2. They make Mary omnipresent.
Mary is one individual. She is in the grave. Her spirit is in heaven. What God allows her to see is not up to you to decide. Heaven wouldn't be heaven if the saved in heaven could watch continuously all the heartache and sorrow that their loved ones had to endure, and all the wickedness that goes on in this world millennium after millennium. What kind of heaven is that when the saved only get "horror movies" to watch?
But the RCC has Mary flitting about from person to person so she can hear them pray. How else would she know what they pray, unless she is there, present to here them pray. She must be omnipresent.
3. They make Mary omnipotent. She is able to do anything (just about). That is, she is able to answer any prayer that the Catholic prays, even to the granting of salvation. She is the redemptrix. Prayers of salvation are frequently found among the literature of Catholic saints.
This makes Mary, a God. This makes Catholicism polytheistic, like Hinduism.
There may be some Catholics that don't know the difference between Mary and God. There are Baptist's who think 'God Hates Fags'. Both are wrong.
"What God allows her to see is not up to you to decide.' Not up to you either!
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Mandy does not need to understand RCC jargon and Catechism.
A teller at a bank instantly knows what bills are counterfeit. They know because they are trained in knowing the traits of the real ones. Thus they can easily spot the forgery.
The RCC is the forgery, easily spotted because it does not match up to the truth of the Word of God. If Mandy knows the Word of God, she doesn't have to know one whit of the Catechism. One sentence of heresy by you held up against the truth of the Word of God is enough to be declared heresy. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice, not the RCC catechism.
Both Adam and Eve sinned. Both Adam and Eve did wickedly. Both Adam and Eve were put under a curse. Both Adam and Eve brought sin into this world and as a result the whole of creation was put under a curse, and also as a result all of mankind has inherited a sin nature, and that included Mary herself. Mary was guilty.
But Jesus paid it all. He paid the entire penalty of sin. No one helped him. He alone hung on the cross. He suffered in pain as the Roman soldiers drove those nails through his hands and feet. He endured the mocking. He endured that suffering alone. He suffered, died, was buried, and rose again. Mary had no part in his sufferings.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Christ suffered...not Mary. Believe the Bible!
There was no cooperation from Mary.
Mary, as the rest of mankind is, was a wicked sinner that needed redemption.
When Christ was 8 days old and circumcised, Mary brought a sin-offering for herself, indicating that she too was a sinner.
When she prayed her prayer of praise and thanksgiving she "rejoiced in God her savior," expressing her need for a Savior, for she was a sinner.
She was a vile wicked sinner like the rest of mankind and could only get to heaven by trusting the Messiah, and she knew that.
God chose her to be a vessel to bring Christ into the world. God could have used another virgin, but He chose Mary. She was used of God in a special way. That doesn't excuse the horrible sin of Mariolatry.
No, I quoted you the truth about ALL Catholics.
All Catholics believe that way.
All Catholics pray to Mary.
Thus ALL Catholics treat Mary as a god.
Whether you don't want to admit it or not, you treat Mary as another God, just by praying to her. If you pray to her by praying the "Hail Mary," praying the rosary, then you make her a god. It doesn't matter what you say, you have already committed that sin.
Nonsense, obviously no matter what evidence is presented to you from the Catechism, from Catholic scholars, from scripture you will continue to misrepresent the Catholic faith and make claims about it that are just false. I would almost think I'm wasting my time on this board except that when the myriad of false statements made about Catholics and the Holy Catholic Church are posted, even a brand new convert to the faith feels obliged to deny them as untruths and show the error in you thinking. Even others Baptist call you out on your misrepresentations and expose them for what they are.
I grew up in the Catholic church. I would, like you deny the same thing. But I look at things through the eyes of the Scriptures now. Through the eyes of the Scriptures you ascribe the same attributes that belong only to God, to Mary: omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience. I demonstrated how. You can't simply deny evidence. Mary is not everywhere to hear and understand almost one seventh of the world's population spread out all over the world. She cannot be, and cannot do those things. Only God can. Why do you ascribe these attributes to Mary. They belong to God alone.
Once you ascribe these traits to Mary (as you do) you have made her a god.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Christians are to pray for each other, confess to those wronged our faults and seek forgiveness, but that ONLY happens among theliving, NO verses in bible support mary having ANYTHING to do with us or God since dead!
And if it is not in scripture then it is not truth whether you like it or not.
the thing is that IF he chose to do that, he would have told us as such in the Bible, and since he did not saying ANYTHING about that, and since jesus ALONE can do mediation/high priestly acts for us...
RCC may not realise it, but the veneration of Masry and saints is idolatry, and worship fasle gods, and the real God of the Bible is NOT in the RCC!
WestminsterMan
New Member
So you say. Yet scripture never claims that which isn't recorded in scripture is not truth. Everything in the bible is true, but not everything is recorded in the bible. And that my friend IS scriptural. (Like it or not)
WM