Coptic Christians

[freeatlast]

Today we hear a lot about "Coptic Christians" being persecuted in Egypt. Do you believe that the "Coptic Christians" are really Christians?
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm

 

[preachinjesus]

Yea I do. I know many of them and, just like Roman Catholics, there are faithful believers in their churches. Some of it is cultural, but there are faithful believers.

In the midst of persecution, and violent persecution, it is wise to consider that nominalist believers don't hang around very long.

 

[LadyEagle]

Yes, I do......

In the midst of persecution, and violent persecution, it is wise to consider that nominalist believers don't hang around very long.

Excellent point.

 

[saved by grace]

Today we hear a lot about "Coptic Christians" being persecuted in Egypt. Do you believe that the "Coptic Christians" are really Christians?
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm

Of course they are Christians and just like Catholics (from whom they split in the fifth century) they believe they are justified by faith and works of grace, confessing to a priest, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of Christ, the Immaculate Conception of Mary and that Mary was ever virgin and they believe in all the other sacraments of the Catholic Church.
Non-Catholics may disagree with all of the above but that doesn't negate the fact that they are believers in the redeeming work of Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

.

In the midst of persecution, and violent persecution, it is wise to consider that nominalist believers don't hang around very long.

While that may seem like a sound test it is not. If persecution caused a person to abandon their false beliefs then there would be no such thing as a. Jewish faith, Mormon, JW, Muslim, or any other false religion.

 

[freeatlast]

I see that I was not very clear in my OP question. I was not asking if there could be any Christians in the Coptic Christian belief system. I suppose there may be some Christians in the JW or Mormon system as long as they do not believe what those systems teach, but rather adhere to the bible.
My question is, is the Coptic Christian teachings in agreement with what the bible teaches for salvation or is it a false system?

 

[Fred's Wife]

I see that I was not very clear in my OP question. I was not asking if there could be any Christians in the Coptic Christian belief system. I suppose there may be some Christians in the JW or Mormon system as long as they do not believe what those systems teach, but rather adhere to the bible.
My question is, is the Coptic Christian teachings in agreement with what the bible teaches for salvation or is it a false system?

Here's a Wikipedia article on Coptic Christians. I realize that Wikipedia is not a very reliable source of information, but this seems to be a basic description:

The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria[1] is the official name for the largest Christian church in Egypt and the Middle East. The Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of churches, which has been a distinct church body since the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christological theology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The precise differences in theology that caused the split with the Coptic Christians are still disputed, highly technical and mainly concerned with the nature of Christ. The foundational roots of the Church are based in Egypt but it has a worldwide following. According to tradition, the church was established by Saint Mark the apostle and evangelist in the middle of the 1st century (approximately AD 42).[2] The head of the church and the See of Alexandria is the Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy See of Saint Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church_of_Alexandria

I have a good friend who knows a family of Coptic Christians and was at their home when these Coptic Christians were there. They appeared to be very similar to the Eastern or Greek Orthodox believers.

Interesting topic....I'm going to study it further.

Here's another link I found on "gotquestions.com"

Question: "What is Coptic Christianity, and what do Coptic Christians believe?"

Answer: “Coptic” means “Egyptian,” and Christians living in Egypt identify themselves as Coptic Christians. As a denomination they originated in the city of Alexandria, one of the most faithful, respected, and fruitful cities during the Apostolic Period. Proudly, the Coptic Christians acknowledge and herald John Mark, (author of the Gospel of Mark), as their founder and first bishop sometime between A.D. 42 - A.D. 62. The Coptic Church was actually involved in the very first major split in the Church, well before there was such a thing as "Roman" Catholicism, and it was also well before the East/West split.

**********
Today, there is a small population of Coptic Christians remaining in Alexandria, but most are located elsewhere. Estimates of the current population of the Coptic Church range from 10 million to 60 million members worldwide. Theologically, Coptic Christianity is very similar to Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. They profess to be genuine followers of Jesus Christ and a part of His worldwide Church. But, as with Catholicism, they tend to emphasize meritorious works in salvation along with liturgical ritual rather than salvation through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Coptic-Christianity.html

 

[saturneptune]

I see that I was not very clear in my OP question. I was not asking if there could be any Christians in the Coptic Christian belief system. I suppose there may be some Christians in the JW or Mormon system as long as they do not believe what those systems teach, but rather adhere to the bible.
My question is, is the Coptic Christian teachings in agreement with what the bible teaches for salvation or is it a false system?

It probably is a false system in the same light as Catholic or Greek Orthodox. One could also say Church of Christ is false due to baptismal regeneration. One could say Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutherans are a false system because of sprinking infants. Yes, I believe there are believers in each and every one of these faiths, more so in the Protestant.

At the same time, the other three you listed, Mormon, JW and Muslim, are not Christian. While salvation is possible I suppose in a laboratory setting, chances are slim to none.

Having said all that, included saved Catholics, there are great numbers of people on Baptst rolls that are going to end up in the Lake of Fire. Kind of a paradox to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, a Baptist in torment asking a Catholic in Abraham's bosom for a dip of water.

If you really are still into heated threads start one called "Are Reformed Baptists a false system?" That always makes for an interesting evening.

 

[freeatlast]

Here is what the Coptics teach;

GOD'S ROLE IN MAN'S SALVATION
After his fall, man became in need to enjoy the risen life, and at the same time he was in need for One who can redeem him by realizing God's justice. These two requirements can't be fulfilled except through the "Incarnation and the Resurrection." The Word of God descended to us and became our Savior, to realize the following advantages to us:
1. To declare the Creator's goodness. He created man and He is able to renew his nature.

• 2. To join us with Himself (John 17:23).

3. To accomplish God's sentence of death (2 Cor. 5:14) and to condemn sin (Rom. 8:3).
4. To undergo death by His victory over death and His resurrection (I Cor. 15:21).

• 5. To conquer Satan, our enemy (I John 3:1).
  6 To raise us up to heaven (Eph. 2:6).

7. To renew our nature in Him, and grant us participation in His divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4).
8. To realize universality of the Church, by joining the Gentiles together with the Jews through faith in one Body.
9. To grant us the true knowledge (Matt. 11:27), for Jesus alone knows the Father.
MAN'S ROLE IN SALVATION
Grace is the center of the Alexandria theology, for God "first loved us" (I John 4:19), foreknew us (Rom. 8:29), chose us, predestined us, called us, justified us and glorified us. He wills, decides and acts for our salvation, but we never enjoy this free salvation unwillingly. God wills that all men might be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth(I Tim. 2:4), for He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turns from his way and lives (Ezek. 33:11). He offered His Son as the propitiation for the whole world (I John 2;2). Nevertheless, God asked us to choose the way we desire (Deut. 30:15,19), and to declare this choice through practical faith. Thus the good deeds that we practise by the divine grace are necessary and essential.
H.H. Pope Shenouda III, in his book "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" presents many proofs of the importance of "good deeds" to our salvation:
1. Evil work leads to eternal condemnation (Gal. 5:19,21; Eph. 5:5,6).
2. Judgment will be based upon our deeds (Matt. 16:27; John 5:28, 29).
3. Works are the fruit of true faith (Luke 3:8, James 2:14).
4. Through good deeds we witness to our faith (James 2:18; Matt. 7:16, 17).
5. Through our good deeds we witness to be children of God (I John 2:29; 3:9, 10).
6 Works make faith perfect (James 2:22; 1: 2 7). We have to distinguish between many kinds of good works as mentioned in the Holy Bible:
1. The works of man's own righteousness, when man trusts in his own power, his salvation is ruined
2. The works of the Lam), like circumcision, preserving the Sabbath in a solid way etc. If these works are performed literally they ruin the spiritual life.
3 Good works which are the fruits of faith: The believer leans on the Lord's breast and asks for the work of His divine grace under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; these works are necessary to our salvation.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-2.html
</I>

 

[saturneptune]

Here is what the Coptics teach;

GOD'S ROLE IN MAN'S SALVATION
After his fall, man became in need to enjoy the risen life, and at the same time he was in need for One who can redeem him by realizing God's justice. These two requirements can't be fulfilled except through the "Incarnation and the Resurrection." The Word of God descended to us and became our Savior, to realize the following advantages to us:
1. To declare the Creator's goodness. He created man and He is able to renew his nature.

• 2. To join us with Himself (John 17:23).

3. To accomplish God's sentence of death (2 Cor. 5:14) and to condemn sin (Rom. 8:3).
4. To undergo death by His victory over death and His resurrection (I Cor. 15:21).

• 5. To conquer Satan, our enemy (I John 3:1).
  6 To raise us up to heaven (Eph. 2:6).

7. To renew our nature in Him, and grant us participation in His divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4).
8. To realize universality of the Church, by joining the Gentiles together with the Jews through faith in one Body.
9. To grant us the true knowledge (Matt. 11:27), for Jesus alone knows the Father.
MAN'S ROLE IN SALVATION
Grace is the center of the Alexandria theology, for God "first loved us" (I John 4:19), foreknew us (Rom. 8:29), chose us, predestined us, called us, justified us and glorified us. He wills, decides and acts for our salvation, but we never enjoy this free salvation unwillingly. God wills that all men might be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth(I Tim. 2:4), for He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turns from his way and lives (Ezek. 33:11). He offered His Son as the propitiation for the whole world (I John 2;2). Nevertheless, God asked us to choose the way we desire (Deut. 30:15,19), and to declare this choice through practical faith. Thus the good deeds that we practise by the divine grace are necessary and essential.
H.H. Pope Shenouda III, in his book "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" presents many proofs of the importance of "good deeds" to our salvation:
1. Evil work leads to eternal condemnation (Gal. 5:19,21; Eph. 5:5,6).
2. Judgment will be based upon our deeds (Matt. 16:27; John 5:28, 29).
3. Works are the fruit of true faith (Luke 3:8, James 2:14).
4. Through good deeds we witness to our faith (James 2:18; Matt. 7:16, 17).
5. Through our good deeds we witness to be children of God (I John 2:29; 3:9, 10).
6 Works make faith perfect (James 2:22; 1: 2 7). We have to distinguish between many kinds of good works as mentioned in the Holy Bible:
1. The works of man's own righteousness, when man trusts in his own power, his salvation is ruined
2. The works of the Lam), like circumcision, preserving the Sabbath in a solid way etc. If these works are performed literally they ruin the spiritual life.
3 Good works which are the fruits of faith: The believer leans on the Lord's breast and asks for the work of His divine grace under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; these works are necessary to our salvation.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-2.html
</I>

I have a lot less problem with their role of God than man. God is the Creator, the only way through Him is Jesus Christ, what they call God's sentence of death is the death, burial, and Ressurection of Jesus Christ, what they call imparting divine nature is God's Holy Spirit in us at the point of salvation. The universal church is mentioned which does nothing here on earth. God's work is accomplished through the local church. Not sure what they mean by imparting the truth. Our knowledge of truth comes from Christ, as we study His Word.

As far as man's role, one is ridiculous. I am saved forever based on the work of Jesus Christ. Without Christ, my works are as filthy rags. No one takes away my salvation since the Lord gave it to me. Number two makes no difference one way or the other. Number three is a good summary of the book of James.

Overall all, I have seen a lot worse. Instead of just putting up a summary of their beliefs, why don't you tell us why you think it is a false system.

 

[freeatlast]

I have a lot less problem with their role of God than man. God is the Creator, the only way through Him is Jesus Christ, what they call God's sentence of death is the death, burial, and Ressurection of Jesus Christ, what they call imparting divine nature is God's Holy Spirit in us at the point of salvation. The universal church is mentioned which does nothing here on earth. God's work is accomplished through the local church. Not sure what they mean by imparting the truth. Our knowledge of truth comes from Christ, as we study His Word.

As far as man's role, one is ridiculous. I am saved forever based on the work of Jesus Christ. Without Christ, my works are as filthy rags. No one takes away my salvation since the Lord gave it to me. Number two makes no difference one way or the other. Number three is a good summary of the book of James.

Overall all, I have seen a lot worse. Instead of just putting up a summary of their beliefs, why don't you tell us why you think it is a false system.

Please post your reference to where I said it was a false system. Do they teach the same plan of salvation as baptists?

 

[saturneptune]

Please post your reference to where I said it was a false system. Do they teach the same plan of salvation as baptists?

You strongly imply it in post 4. As far as the salvation experience, not under the responsibility of man. How does one ruin their salvation? What does the universal church have to do with salvation?

 

[freeatlast]

You strongly imply it in post 4. As far as the salvation experience, not under the responsibility of man. How does one ruin their salvation? What does the universal church have to do with salvation?

Please post your reference to where I said it was a false system. Do they teach the same plan of salvation as baptists?

 

[preachinjesus]

Perhaps the lingering question about the nature of salvation among other denominations (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox - specifically the branch of Coptic Christianity here, even Methodism, Episcopalianism, etc.) is best considered by contemplating what the NT shows is the process/method/means/etc of salvation.

For all my read of the NT I don't see where we are saved only by having proper knowledge of all major theological issues. Nor do I see a place where the NT writers suggest that one can only be saved if they embrace a specific communion within moments of their salvific event. To get to the bottom of this: I don't see in the NT where salvation is dependent upon our immediate alignment with evangelical (specifically) or Christian (generally) orthodoxy. Rather, I see a pattern of salvation coming by faith and faith alone. Not knowledge.

One is saved 9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. (Romans 10:9f) I don't see a place where we must believe exactly what the Baptist view of soteriology happens to be (according to that Baptist.) Likewise when Christ is queried about the nature of salvation He speaks of rebirth, again, via faith. Note Christ's answers to Nicodemus, 16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (John 3:16ff)

In the NT I don't see a pattern of causing someone to have to believe as one particular group believes in the nuanced explication of theology as the doorway to faith. Instead we see confession of Christ's name (in Greek: κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς).

So I welcome any Coptic Christian who has confessed with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord. Salvation isn't about knowledge and proper theology...it is ultimately about faith.

I believe there are faithful Christians in the aforementioned denominations. I also believe there are unsaved folks attending our churches...often every week.

Salvation is far simpler than we make it out to be.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Perhaps the lingering question about the nature of salvation among other denominations (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox - specifically the branch of Coptic Christianity here, even Methodism, Episcopalianism, etc.) is best considered by contemplating what the NT shows is the process/method/means/etc of salvation.

For all my read of the NT I don't see where we are saved only by having proper knowledge of all major theological issues. Nor do I see a place where the NT writers suggest that one can only be saved if they embrace a specific communion within moments of their salvific event. To get to the bottom of this: I don't see in the NT where salvation is dependent upon our immediate alignment with evangelical (specifically) or Christian (generally) orthodoxy. Rather, I see a pattern of salvation coming by faith and faith alone. Not knowledge.

One is saved 9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. (Romans 10:9f) I don't see a place where we must believe exactly what the Baptist view of soteriology happens to be (according to that Baptist.) Likewise when Christ is queried about the nature of salvation He speaks of rebirth, again, via faith. Note Christ's answers to Nicodemus, 16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (John 3:16ff)

In the NT I don't see a pattern of causing someone to have to believe as one particular group believes in the nuanced explication of theology as the doorway to faith. Instead we see confession of Christ's name (in Greek: κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς).

So I welcome any Coptic Christian who has confessed with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord. Salvation isn't about knowledge and proper theology...it is ultimately about faith.

I believe there are faithful Christians in the aforementioned denominations. I also believe there are unsaved folks attending our churches...often every week.

Salvation is far simpler than we make it out to be.

Excellent post!

 

[freeatlast]

Perhaps the lingering question about the nature of salvation among other denominations (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox - specifically the branch of Coptic Christianity here, even Methodism, Episcopalianism, etc.) is best considered by contemplating what the NT shows is the process/method/means/etc of salvation.

For all my read of the NT I don't see where we are saved only by having proper knowledge of all major theological issues. Nor do I see a place where the NT writers suggest that one can only be saved if they embrace a specific communion within moments of their salvific event. To get to the bottom of this: I don't see in the NT where salvation is dependent upon our immediate alignment with evangelical (specifically) or Christian (generally) orthodoxy. Rather, I see a pattern of salvation coming by faith and faith alone. Not knowledge.

One is saved 9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. (Romans 10:9f) I don't see a place where we must believe exactly what the Baptist view of soteriology happens to be (according to that Baptist.) Likewise when Christ is queried about the nature of salvation He speaks of rebirth, again, via faith. Note Christ's answers to Nicodemus, 16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (John 3:16ff)

In the NT I don't see a pattern of causing someone to have to believe as one particular group believes in the nuanced explication of theology as the doorway to faith. Instead we see confession of Christ's name (in Greek: κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς).

So I welcome any Coptic Christian who has confessed with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord. Salvation isn't about knowledge and proper theology...it is ultimately about faith.

I believe there are faithful Christians in the aforementioned denominations. I also believe there are unsaved folks attending our churches...often every week.

Salvation is far simpler than we make it out to be.

But the Coptic's don't teach that confession is how to get saved. Did you read what they believe in the links provided?
Also if Romans 10:9-10 means what it says the way it is translated then no person can be saved who is mute as they cannot confess with their mouth. I think you are miss-understanding the passage for if it takes confession with the mouth then that means it takes works since confession is a work and goes beyond believing and you could not claim faith alone if that is what you hold.

 

[Gina B]

Yea I do. I know many of them and, just like Roman Catholics, there are faithful believers in their churches. Some of it is cultural, but there are faithful believers.

In the midst of persecution, and violent persecution, it is wise to consider that nominalist believers don't hang around very long.

Then you've got a lot to explain when it comes to Joseph Smith and the LDS church.

False believers often hold onto their false beliefs at immense cost, sometimes appearing even stronger than true Christians, because if they lose their false faith...they have nothing.
A true Christian still has everything that matters, so it *can* be harder to fight persecution, as much as we like to believe that isn't true.

 

[saturneptune]

Then you've got a lot to explain when it comes to Joseph Smith and the LDS church.

False believers often hold onto their false beliefs at immense cost, sometimes appearing even stronger than true Christians, because if they lose their false faith...they have nothing.
A true Christian still has everything that matters, so it *can* be harder to fight persecution, as much as we like to believe that isn't true.

Very good observation. I draw a distinct line between Roman Catholics and Mormons. Catholics, despite our deep theological differences, do believe Jesus Christ is Savior, Lord, and God. There are many saved Catholics despite their church. Mormons, on the other hand, do not believe Jesus is God. They are not a Christian church, but a cult. I would say the chances are next to zero of a devout Mormon being saved. I say next to because the Lord can do whatever He wants.

 

[freeatlast]

Very good observation. I draw a distinct line between Roman Catholics and Mormons. Catholics, despite our deep theological differences, do believe Jesus Christ is Savior, Lord, and God. There are many saved Catholics despite their church. Mormons, on the other hand, do not believe Jesus is God. They are not a Christian church, but a cult. I would say the chances are next to zero of a devout Mormon being saved. I say next to because the Lord can do whatever He wants.

But this is about what the Coptics teach for salvation. Is their teaching accurate according to scripture? Do they teach the same message as how to get saved as baptists?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

But this is about what the Coptics teach for salvation. Is their teaching accurate according to scripture? Do they teach the same message as how to get saved as baptists?

Baptists don't have a corner on truth!