Coptic Christians

[freeatlast]

Baptists don't have a corner on truth!

So do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?

I'm saying that Baptists are not right about everything, and other denominations are not wrong about everything!

 

[freeatlast]

I'm saying that Baptists are not right about everything, and other denominations are not wrong about everything!

So in regards to how to be saved and what the Coptics teach on the matter do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So in regards to how to be saved and what the Coptics teach on the matter do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?

Every denomination believes that faith in Jesus is necessary; none believe you can work your way into heaven without faith. So why can't certain Baptists just shut up and stop calling other Christians apostates.

 

[preachinjesus]

But the Coptic's don't teach that confession is how to get saved. Did you read what they believe in the links provided?
Also if Romans 10:9-10 means what it says the way it is translated then no person can be saved who is mute as they cannot confess with their mouth. I think you are miss-understanding the passage for if it takes confession with the mouth then that means it takes works since confession is a work and goes beyond believing and you could not claim faith alone if that is what you hold.

Faith is, regardless of tradition, necessary. Of all the catholic doctrine I've read there is a heavy emphasis on the role of faith in salvation.

Now we (that is me and catholics) will disagree about the efficacy of justifying faith, but there is still faith.

The point of the Romans passage is that there is, in salvation, the expression of faith which unifies all. One doesn't need to assent to a formal creedal statement to be saved. One doesn't need to be able to deliver a point by point systematic theology to be saved. One simply needs grace from faith that is of not of ourselves.

 

[preachinjesus]

Then you've got a lot to explain when it comes to Joseph Smith and the LDS church.

False believers often hold onto their false beliefs at immense cost, sometimes appearing even stronger than true Christians, because if they lose their false faith...they have nothing.
A true Christian still has everything that matters, so it *can* be harder to fight persecution, as much as we like to believe that isn't true.

I wasn't speaking about other faiths or how they have endured persecution. My point was that in the midst of persecution you often find out who the real Christians are and who are the marginal ones. If the history of Christianity is a proof of anything it is that in the midst of the persecution the Church is purified and what remains are true believers.

As a follow up point, then I cannot doubt the salvation of anyone claiming Christ who is remaining faithful to His call and Church in the midst of violent persecutions.

 

[freeatlast]

Every denomination believes that faith in Jesus is necessary; none believe you can work your way into heaven without faith. So why can't certain Baptists just shut up and stop calling other Christians apostates.

I don't know who called anyone apostates. However let me ask again.
Since the Coptics teach one way to be saved and Baptists another do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?

 

[freeatlast]

Faith is, regardless of tradition, necessary. Of all the catholic doctrine I've read there is a heavy emphasis on the role of faith in salvation.

Now we (that is me and catholics) will disagree about the efficacy of justifying faith, but there is still faith.

The point of the Romans passage is that there is, in salvation, the expression of faith which unifies all. One doesn't need to assent to a formal creedal statement to be saved. One doesn't need to be able to deliver a point by point systematic theology to be saved. One simply needs grace from faith that is of not of ourselves.

So if works are involved can it be called faith?

 

[preachinjesus]

So if works are involved can it be called faith?

It's a common Baptist misstatement to say catholics believe in works based salvation. Go read Vatican II and the discussions following the Council of Trent, then toss in some patristics, maybe even read some recent encyclicals from Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and you'll see that faith is the doorway to salvation. The same with the Coptics. Faith is the doorway.

Now what they do with it once you're in the door...well...that's where we simply disagree.

But again, I don't see the NT saying that people need to be able to articulate the Baptist theology of justification to be saved. In its simplest terms it is "Lord Jesus Christ! Save me!"

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I don't know who called anyone apostates. However let me ask again.
Since the Coptics teach one way to be saved and Baptists another do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?

Then you haven't read enough.

As to your second point, prove to me that the Coptic Church doesn't believe that faith is necessary to salvation, or cease with the falsehood.

 

[freeatlast]

It's a common Baptist misstatement to say catholics believe in works based salvation. Go read Vatican II and the discussions following the Council of Trent, then toss in some patristics, maybe even read some recent encyclicals from Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and you'll see that faith is the doorway to salvation. The same with the Coptics. Faith is the doorway.

Now what they do with it once you're in the door...well...that's where we simply disagree.

But again, I don't see the NT saying that people need to be able to articulate the Baptist theology of justification to be saved. In its simplest terms it is "Lord Jesus Christ! Save me!"

[SIZE=+0]Friend I used to attend Catholic and I know what they teach. They call the sacraments, sacraments of faith and that they are required for salvation. One of those sacraments is Baptism which they state clearly must happen for salvation. "And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . Not only that every time they take the bread and wine they are getting saved again.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism

You must keep in mind that Catholics do not call themselves Christians as a rule. The RCC has also now accepted Christians, non Catholics as being saved even if they do not go through the catechisms, but they are not full believers. We are sub believers being shielded under the RCC teachings. They are the true church and we are the sub church allowed in because we are sincere even though we do not obey the way they have set up.. A Catholic still has to follow all the sacraments to be saved and be a Catholic or full and true believer.

So the question is are the Coptics teaching the truth about salvation or are the Baptists or is there more then one way?
[/SIZE]

 

[freeatlast]

Then you haven't read enough.

As to your second point, prove to me that the Coptic Church doesn't believe that faith is necessary to salvation, or cease with the falsehood.

I did not say they did not claim faith. I was asking you if their belief as to what faith is was the same as Baptists and if not then are there two ways to get saved. The proof is in the links I gave at the beginning. Here is what they say;

Good works which are the fruits of faith: The believer leans on the Lord's breast and asks for the work of His divine grace under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; these works are necessary to our salvation.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-2.html

Also they teach;

1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-3.html

Is that what baptists teach is necessary for our salvation or is there more then one way?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I did not say they did not claim faith. I was asking you if their belief as to what faith is was the same as Baptists and if not then are there two ways to get saved. The proof is in the links I gave at the beginning. Here is what they say;

Good works which are the fruits of faith: The believer leans on the Lord's breast and asks for the work of His divine grace under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; these works are necessary to our salvation.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-2.html

Also they teach;

1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-3.html

Is that what baptists teach is necessary for our salvation or is there more then one way?

Both teach that faith is necessary to salvation.

 

[Fred's Wife]

I did not say they did not claim faith. I was asking you if their belief as to what faith is was the same as Baptists and if not then are there two ways to get saved. The proof is in the links I gave at the beginning. Here is what they say;

Good works which are the fruits of faith: The believer leans on the Lord's breast and asks for the work of His divine grace under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; these works are necessary to our salvation.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-2.html

Also they teach;

1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-3.html

Is that what baptists teach is necessary for our salvation or is there more then one way?

I read through a good portion of this article and all I see is "works salvation"/baptismal regeneration/salvation through the sacraments. Very similar to Roman Catholicism.

Coptics' salvation bears no resemblance to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...which is what the Bible teaches and what most Baptists believe.

 

[freeatlast]

Both teach that faith is necessary to salvation.

Both use the term, But both have different teachings on what faith is, so do Baptists teach the same as Coptics?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Both use the term, But both have different teachings on what faith is, so do Baptists teach the same as Coptics?

The point is, neither group believes that works will save you; they both believe that faith is necessary.

The bottom line and common denominator with all Christian denominations is that they believe faith in Jesus is what saves you.

So, do you contend that Coptics teach that faith is not necessary for salvation, that we are saved by works and not by faith? Do you deny that Coptics are Christians?

 

[freeatlast]

The point is, neither group believes that works will save you; they both believe that faith is necessary.

The bottom line and common denominator with all Christian denominations is that they believe faith in Jesus is what saves you.

So, do you contend that Coptics teach that faith is not necessary for salvation, that we are saved by works and not by faith? Do you deny that Coptics are Christians?

Did you read what they teach?

Also they teach;

1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/t...church3-3.html

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Did you read what they teach?

Also they teach;

1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/t...church3-3.html

Are the Coptics Christians or not? Do they accept Jesus by faith or not?

 

[freeatlast]

Are the Coptics Christians or not? Do they accept Jesus by faith or not?

That is the question.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is the question.

They obviously do, but you seem to have a problem with them not additionally believing as you do.