Coptic Christians

[freeatlast]

So, you don't believe that Coptics, Roman Catholics, and Church of Christ are saved?

Do you believe that works can be added to faith and it still be faith and the person can get saved?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Do you believe that works can be added to faith and it still be faith and the person can get saved?

Yes, because as I explained, I believe that faith saves you, not faith plus right belief. I believe a person can be wrong about something and still be saved.

 

[Fred's Wife]

So, you don't believe that Coptics, Roman Catholics, and Church of Christ are saved?

In what "Jesus" do you put your faith?

1. The Wafer Jesus who is worshipped in the Roman Catholic mass.
2. The Mormon Jesus who was a polygamist.
3. The Modernist Jesus who was not born of a virgin.
4. The Unitarian Jesus who was not God.
5. The Universalist Jesus who will not send anyone to Hell.
6. The Prosperity Jesus who was wealthy.
7. The Laughing Jesus who “slays” people with his spirit and causes them to laugh uncontrollably and to stagger like drunk men.
8. The Self-esteem Jesus who never called man a sinner and who came merely to build up his self image.
9. The Revolutionary Jesus who was the founder of Liberation Theology.

These are just a few of the false christs in the world today. Beware of those who refuse to expose false christs and false gospels. It is impossible to love the true Jesus without hating the false ones.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Loving What Jesus?

In what "gospel" do you believe?

The fact that the Coptics, Roman Catholics, and Church of Christ (and others) teach a false gospel which mixes grace and sacraments, faith and works together means that these groups teach "another gospel". Therefore the Word of God specifically states that those who do teach "another gospel" are cursed of God (anathema) as were the Galatian heretics of old. (Galatians 1:8-9)

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Adding works/sacraments to faith and grace is "another gospel" and is cursed of God....and believing "another gospel" does not save. "Right belief" is not a work...it is to believe the "right"/biblical Gospel which saves.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

In what "Jesus" do you put your faith?

In what "gospel" do you believe?

The fact that the Coptics, Roman Catholics, and Church of Christ (and others) teach a false gospel which mixes grace and sacraments, faith and works together means that these groups teach "another gospel". Therefore the Word of God specifically states that those who do teach "another gospel" are cursed of God (anathema) as were the Galatian heretics of old. (Galatians 1:8-9)

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Adding works/sacraments to faith and grace is "another gospel" and is cursed of God....and believing "another gospel" does not save. "Right belief" is not a work...it is to believe the "right"/biblical Gospel which saves.

Well, you'd better tremble with fear because I can guarantee you that your beliefs are not 100% right.

 

[Fred's Wife]

Well, you'd better tremble with fear because I can guarantee you that your beliefs are not 100% right.

Are you saying that the Word of God is not 100% accurate? I only believe what the Word of God teaches....salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone...NO works/sacraments. Believing the biblical gospel which saves is not a work.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

By what standard do you judge that my beliefs are not 100% accurate?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Are you saying that the Word of God is not 100% accurate? I only believe what the Word of God teaches....salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone...NO works/sacraments. Believing the biblical gospel which saves is not a work.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

By what standard do you judge that my beliefs are not 100% accurate?

And Coptics, RCC, and EOC believe what the word of God teaches; they interpret it differently than you do. They interpret the Book of James differently, for example.

We all see through a glass darkly -- that's how I know that your beliefs are not 100% accurate. To claim that one's beliefs are 100% accurate is the height of arrogance and ignorance. No one on this earth holds beliefs that are 100% accurate -- not even I.

 

[Fred's Wife]

And Coptics, RCC, and EOC believe what the word of God teaches; they interpret it differently than you do. They interpret the Book of James differently, for example.

We all see through a glass darkly -- that's how I know that your beliefs are not 100% accurate. To claim that one's beliefs are 100% accurate is the height of arrogance and ignorance. No one on this earth holds beliefs that are 100% accurate -- not even I.

The Holy Spirit guides the born again Christian "into all truth" and it is the Holy Spirit Who interprets the Word of God:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

God does not contradict Himself with "different" interpretations of His Word. Therefore there can be only ONE 100% accurate interpretation of God's Word. So is the Coptic's, RCC's or EOC's interpretation correct or is the Holy Spirit's interpretation the 100% accurate one? Which one are we supposed to trust? I'm really not interested in how the Coptics, RCC, or EOC interpret God's Word...except for the fact that their interpretation IS their own "private interpretation" and I reject it.

The only way for a born again Christian to know if another person's beliefs are 100% accurate is by the indwelling guidance of the Holy Spirit of God. My beliefs are NOT my own "private interpretations" of God's Word. Calling me ignorant and arrogant isn't going to change that fact. That's why I asked you by what standard you are judging me.

I never claimed perfection in Bible knowledge and I also never claimed I knew everything there is to know about Bible interpretation. But as far as my beliefs concerning salvation, faith, grace, and adding works to faith and grace, I know I am 100% accurate through the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (2 Timothy 2:15-16)

1 Cor.13:12 is not speaking about interpreting God's Word. It is speaking about the imperfection of our knowledge as compared with what that knowledge will be in our future eternal state. The imperfect view of an object which we have in looking through an obscure and opaque medium is being compared with the view which we have when we look at it "face to face."

 

[freeatlast]

And Coptics, RCC, and EOC believe what the word of God teaches; they interpret it differently than you do. They interpret the Book of James differently, for example.

We all see through a glass darkly -- that's how I know that your beliefs are not 100% accurate. To claim that one's beliefs are 100% accurate is the height of arrogance and ignorance. No one on this earth holds beliefs that are 100% accurate -- not even I.

Then I ask again how are these who you mention any different then a Mormon as they will tell you right up front that they believe in salvation by faith in Jesus?

 

[DHK]

And Coptics, RCC, and EOC believe what the word of God teaches; they interpret it differently than you do. They interpret the Book of James differently, for example.

We all see through a glass darkly -- that's how I know that your beliefs are not 100% accurate. To claim that one's beliefs are 100% accurate is the height of arrogance and ignorance. No one on this earth holds beliefs that are 100% accurate -- not even I.

There is only one interpretation--God's. Our duty is to find out what it is. Someone has to be wrong.

Are you honestly going to say that the J.W.'s simply have an optional interpretation of who Christ is? They believe he is Michael the Archangel. That is just their interpretation. They simply interpret the Bible differently than we do and that is perfectly OK with you. Just because they have that interpretation won't keep them out of heaven. You really believe that??

That is what I am reading into this post.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Holy Spirit guides the born again Christian "into all truth" and it is the Holy Spirit Who interprets the Word of God:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

God does not contradict Himself with "different" interpretations of His Word. Therefore there can be only ONE 100% accurate interpretation of God's Word. So is the Coptic's, RCC's or EOC's interpretation correct or is the Holy Spirit's interpretation the 100% accurate one? Which one are we supposed to trust? I'm really not interested in how the Coptics, RCC, or EOC interpret God's Word...except for the fact that their interpretation IS their own "private interpretation" and I reject it.

The only way for a born again Christian to know if another person's beliefs are 100% accurate is by the indwelling guidance of the Holy Spirit of God. My beliefs are NOT my own "private interpretations" of God's Word. Calling me ignorant and arrogant isn't going to change that fact. That's why I asked you by what standard you are judging me.

I never claimed perfection in Bible knowledge and I also never claimed I knew everything there is to know about Bible interpretation. But as far as my beliefs concerning salvation, faith, grace, and adding works to faith and grace, I know I am 100% accurate through the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (2 Timothy 2:15-16)

1 Cor.13:12 is not speaking about interpreting God's Word. It is speaking about the imperfection of our knowledge as compared with what that knowledge will be in our future eternal state. The imperfect view of an object which we have in looking through an obscure and opaque medium is being compared with the view which we have when we look at it "face to face."

Oh, well let me apologize, your highness. I have just met the only person on the face of the earth whose beliefs are 100% accurate. Even though other Christians -- including Coptics, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. -- all have the same Holy Spirit residing in them, in Whom they trust for guidance in interpretation, you alone among the Christians of the world have 100% accurate beliefs. According to your criteria then, I guess that makes you the only saved person in the whole world. And since you possess such knowledge, I only need to come to you with my questions from now on.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Then I ask again how are these who you mention any different then a Mormon as they will tell you right up front that they believe in salvation by faith in Jesus?

If we don't keep the discussion within orthodoxy, then we have no basis for discussion.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

There is only one interpretation--God's. Our duty is to find out what it is. Someone has to be wrong.

Are you honestly going to say that the J.W.'s simply have an optional interpretation of who Christ is? They believe he is Michael the Archangel. That is just their interpretation. They simply interpret the Bible differently than we do and that is perfectly OK with you. Just because they have that interpretation won't keep them out of heaven. You really believe that??

That is what I am reading into this post.

As I have posted twice now, if we don't confine this to orthodoxy, there is no basis to discuss the issue. Or maybe we should expand it to include Satan himself since he believes in Christ.

 

[DHK]

If we don't keep the discussion within orthodoxy, then we have no basis for discussion.

The RCC is not within the realm of orthodoxy. It has never been a Christian church, is not a Christian church, and never will be. It preaches a false gospel, a false message of hope, and such doctrinal error that sends people to hell.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The bottom line here is as I have posted before: Can one be wrong about something and still be saved? I say yes; some of you say no. If you say you believe that faith alone is necessary for salvation, but you don't believe you can be saved if you hold a wrong doctrine, then you have denied that faith alone saves because you have added faith plus right belief. You are guilty of doing what you accuse Coptics and others of doing -- adding something to faith as a requirement for salvation.

And I still contend that no one has 100% right beliefs.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The RCC is not within the realm of orthodoxy. It has never been a Christian church, is not a Christian church, and never will be. It preaches a false gospel, a false message of hope, and such doctrinal error that sends people to hell.

And I would say the same thing of some brands of fundamentalism.

Do you deny that there are many RC's who are saved?

 

[DHK]

The bottom line here is as I have posted before: Can one be wrong about something and still be saved? I say yes; some of you say no. If you say you believe that faith alone is necessary for salvation, but you don't believe you can be saved if you hold a wrong doctrine, then you have denied that faith alone saves because you have added faith plus right belief. You are guilty of doing what you accuse Coptics and others of doing -- adding something to faith as a requirement for salvation.

And I still contend that no one has 100% right beliefs.

No two people agree 100% on everything, and therefore no person is 100% correct. But a person does have to believe correctly concerning salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. If one declares that salvation is by works in any way, shape, or form, they have denied the sufficiency of the blood of Christ; they have denied the full atonement of Christ; they have denied that power of Christ was not enough to died for their sins. They think that they had to help Christ in their efforts to save themselves. What blasphemy!!

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Oh, well let me apologize, your highness. I have just met the only person on the face of the earth whose beliefs are 100% accurate. Even though other Christians -- including Coptics, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. -- all have the same Holy Spirit residing in them, in Whom they trust for guidance in interpretation, you alone among the Christians of the world have 100% accurate beliefs. According to your criteria then, I guess that makes you the only saved person in the whole world. And since you possess such knowledge, I only need to come to you with my questions from now on.

Since you believe that there is such a thing as a Roman Catholic Christian, you obviously have no clue what a Christian is.

 

[DHK]

And I would say the same thing of some brands of fundamentalism.

Do you deny that there are many RC's who are saved?

When I got saved I did not come out of the RCC right away, so the answer is yes.
People get saved in spite of the RCC, not because it.
Those that remain in the RCC are disobedient Christians.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No two people agree 100% on everything, and therefore no person is 100% correct. But a person does have to believe correctly concerning salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. If one declares that salvation is by works in any way, shape, or form, they have denied the sufficiency of the blood of Christ; they have denied the full atonement of Christ; they have denied that power of Christ was not enough to died for their sins. They think that they had to help Christ in their efforts to save themselves. What blasphemy!!

I don't think they have denied any of this; I think they simply have a misunderstanding. If they have faith in Christ, they are saved -- period.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Since you believe that there is such a thing as a Roman Catholic Christian, you obviously have no clue what a Christian is.

That's an insult and a lie. To the report button.

I have known several Roman Catholic Christians. You could take lessons from them. better look at your own heart; it is you who has no clue -- about a lot of things.

I have seen a lot of self-righteousness here, but you are the tops.