Coptic Christians

[freeatlast]

Indeed we are.

You know, the questioning of the salvation of those outside the Baptist family that is going on in this thread goes way beyond what some are accusing the RCC of in other threads on this forum.

This is very disturbing to me. It's making baptists look like a cult.

Michael, It is not about denomination names. It is about truth. If the Coptic's teachings about how to be saved are correct then the Baptist teachings are not and visa versa. That is unless you hold that there is more than one way to be saved.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, It is not about denomination names. It is about truth. If the Coptic's teachings about how to be saved are correct then the Baptist teachings are not and visa versa. That is unless you hold that there is more than one way to be saved.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?

One reason I could not be Coptic, or RCC, or Church of Christ, for that matter, is because of what they believe about baptism. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, do these people believe that faith is necessary to salvation, and can you be saved without faith -- that is, by works. The answer to the first part of that is "yes", and the second part is "no". Therefore, if they have faith, they are saved, regardless of whatever else they may add. And, please, remember we are talking about orthodox Christendom, so don't bring cults into it.

 

[freeatlast]

One reason I could not be Coptic, or RCC, or Church of Christ, for that matter, is because of what they believe about baptism. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, do these people believe that faith is necessary to salvation, and can you be saved without faith -- that is, by works. The answer to the first part of that is "yes", and the second part is "no". Therefore, if they have faith, they are saved, regardless of whatever else they may add. And, please, remember we are talking about orthodox Christendom, so don't bring cults into it.

You did not answer my question.
Michael, It is not about denomination names. It is about truth. If the Coptic's teachings about how to be saved are correct then the Baptist teachings are not and visa versa. That is unless you hold that there is more than one way to be saved.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?

How do they believe in faith alone if they claim baptism is necessary to be saved.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You did not answer my question.
Michael, It is not about denomination names. It is about truth. If the Coptic's teachings about how to be saved are correct then the Baptist teachings are not and visa versa. That is unless you hold that there is more than one way to be saved.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?

How do they believe in faith alone if they claim baptism is necessary to be saved.

I don't know how I could make what I believe more clear than what I have already done.

I did not say they believe in faith alone; they do not, and that's one thing that makes them catholics. I said that they nor any other catholic believes in works alone -- that works without faith will get them to heaven. As long as they believe that faith is required, they are saved.

I don't believe like they do with regard to the sacraments or works. My view of sacraments is in line with Baptists and Anabaptists, and my view of works is close to that of Wesley and the Quakers.

 

[freeatlast]

I don't know how I could make what I believe more clear than what I have already done.

I did not say they believe in faith alone; they do not, and that's one thing that makes them catholics. I said that they nor any other catholic believes in works alone -- that works without faith will get them to heaven. As long as they believe that faith is required, they are saved.

I don't believe like they do with regard to the sacraments or works. My view of sacraments is in line with Baptists and Anabaptists, and my view of works is close to that of Wesley and the Quakers.

You are not answering my question.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?
Both do not teach the same way to get saved. If one is wrong then how can they be saved?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You are not answering my question.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?
Both do not teach the same way to get saved. If one is wrong then how can they be saved?

If they have faith in Jesus Christ, they are saved. Do you deny that?

 

[preachinjesus]

FAL, here's a scenario for you:

Someone grows up and is taken to a Church of Christ from infancy through college. During this time they make a decision for Christ and get baptized. Now CoC believes in baptismal regeneration. When this person is at college they believe that a Baptist church would a better fit for them and start attending there and join. They are faithful in growing, giving, going, and other disciplines. Decades later they die and are remembered as a faithful believer.

They never got rebaptized. They never made a rededication. They lived an authentic, earnest Christian life. We're they ever actually saved?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You are not answering my question.
The Baptist teach faith alone. No works can be involved for it to remain faith according to Baptist teachings. The Coptic's teach that the sacraments are required for the faith to really be faith.
I am asking you which one is correct or do you believe that adding works, and in this case the sacraments, to faith has no effect on what is called faith?
Both do not teach the same way to get saved. If one is wrong then how can they be saved?

An additional thought: You are opposed to faith plus works as the condition of salvation, maintaining that you believe in faith alone. But it seems to me you believe in faith plus right belief as necessary for salvation, based on your posts here.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, here's a scenario for you:

Someone grows up and is taken to a Church of Christ from infancy through college. During this time they make a decision for Christ and get baptized. Now CoC believes in baptismal regeneration. When this person is at college they believe that a Baptist church would a better fit for them and start attending there and join. They are faithful in growing, giving, going, and other disciplines. Decades later they die and are remembered as a faithful believer.

They never got rebaptized. They never made a rededication. They lived an authentic, earnest Christian life. We're they ever actually saved?

Not enough information in that, but Salvation is by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

If they have faith in Jesus Christ, they are saved. Do you deny that?

One cannot have faith in Jesus if you hold to works.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

One cannot have faith in Jesus if you hold to works.

What?!

Now you are not answering my question or that of preachinjesus.

Do you believe that faith alone saves you, or faith plus right belief?

 

[Crabtownboy]

One cannot have faith in Jesus if you hold to works.

James 2:17

New International Version (©1984)
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
New Living Translation (©2007)
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

English Standard Version (©2001)
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Show me your works and I will show you your faith.

 

[freeatlast]

What?!

Now you are not answering my question or that of preachinjesus.

Do you believe that faith alone saves you, or faith plus right belief?

Eph 2:8-9. Grace alone saves us, but grace is only given if the person comes to faith and anything added to faith makes void what would have been faith. You cannot hold that hold that we are saved by the works of Christ on the cross and also say, but you also have to be baptized to be saved and call it faith. Faith is holding to the finished work of Christ and that alone.
What you are suggesting is what Paul had to combat in the letter to the Gal. Listen to what he says.
Gal. 5:1-4
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Now just replace the word "circumcised" and replace it with "baptism" or any other work. Those who teach that a person has to be Baptized to be saved or is included in faith are fallen from grace and Christ is of no effect for them.

Do you believe that a person has to be baptized to be saved?

 

[freeatlast]

James 2:17



Show me your works and I will show you your faith.

You are talking about another subject. This is about the teachings of the Coptic and what they teach on how to get saved, not what follows salvation.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Eph 2:8-9. Grace alone saves us, but grace is only given if the person comes to faith and anything added to faith makes void what would have been faith. You cannot hold that hold that we are saved by the works of Christ on the cross and also say, but you also have to be baptized to be saved and call it faith. Faith is holding to the finished work of Christ and that alone.
What you are suggesting is what Paul had to combat in the letter to the Gal. Listen to what he says.
Gal. 5:1-4
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Now just replace the word "circumcised" and replace it with "baptism" or any other work. Those who teach that a person has to be Baptized to be saved or is included in faith are fallen from grace and Christ is of no effect for them.

Do you believe that a person has to be baptized to be saved?

You know that I do not believe that a person has to be baptized to be saved. Quit trying to deflect the issue.

That first statement of yours above that I bolded answers my question about you. You are adding right belief to faith as a condition of salvation, so you are doing what you accuse the Coptics and others of doing. That is hypocritical. Nowhere does it say that one must have right belief to be saved; all that is required is faith. You'd better examine yourself because I guarantee you that not all of your beliefs are "right".

I think the Churches of Christ, Roman Catholics, and others who teach baptismal regeneration are wrong; I couldn't disagree with them more. But I will not say they are not saved because of a wrong belief. If they have faith in Jesus, they are just as saved as I am or anyone else who has a wrong belief -- like you in this case, for instance!

 

[freeatlast]

You know that I do not believe that a person has to be baptized to be saved. Quit trying to deflect the issue.

That first statement of yours above that I bolded answers my question about you. You are adding right belief to faith as a condition of salvation, so you are doing what you accuse the Coptics and others of doing. That is hypocritical. Nowhere does it say that one must have right belief to be saved; all that is required is faith. You'd better examine yourself because I guarantee you that not all of your beliefs are "right".

I think the Churches of Christ, Roman Catholics, and others who teach baptismal regeneration are wrong; I couldn't disagree with them more. But I will not say they are not saved because of a wrong belief. If they have faith in Jesus, they are just as saved as I am or anyone else who has a wrong belief -- like you in this case, for instance!

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]That is the issue a person cannot have faith if they trust in added works. Yes they believe in Jesus but that is not faith. If they hold to baptism as part of the salvation process then they do not have faith in Jesus.
Let me give you an example from a true story. Over 50 years ago I was at a lake swimming around like many others. I saw this woman bobbing and her hands and arms splashing. I was close enough to swim over quickly and grab her. She immediately tried to climb on top of me to keep from drowning. I told her if she did not stop and let go and let me do this we would both drown. Well she had enough trust to listen and I got her to shallow water.
The same is with faith. There can be nothing attached to it or you go down. Baptism makes faith void because they are trusting in something other then just Jesus..
The same with circumcisism or any other thing that might be added.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[Michael Wrenn]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]That is the issue a person cannot have faith if they trust in added works. Yes they believe in Jesus but that is not faith. If they hold to baptism as part of the salvation process then they do not have faith in Jesus.
Let me give you an example from a true story. Over 50 years ago I was at a lake swimming around like many others. I saw this woman bobbing and her hands and arms splashing. I was close enough to swim over quickly and grab her. She immediately tried to climb on top of me to keep from drowning. I told her if she did not stop and let go and let me do this we would both drown. Well she had enough trust to listen and I got her to shallow water.
The same is with faith. There can be nothing attached to it or you go down. Baptism makes faith void because they are trusting in something other then just Jesus..
The same with circumcisism or any other thing that might be added.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Yeah, like "right belief". According to your own criteria then, you are not saved.

 

[Fred's Wife]

True saving faith is based upon God's Word. To have saving faith a person must hear and believe the words of the Bible concerning God's promises in Christ.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Michael Wrenn]

True saving faith is based upon God's Word. To have saving faith a person must hear and believe the words of the Bible concerning God's promises in Christ.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So, you don't believe that Coptics, Roman Catholics, and Church of Christ are saved?

 

[freeatlast]

Yeah, like "right belief". According to your own criteria then, you are not saved.

Explain, How so?