Featured Revelation 19 & 20

Agedman, I can speak for myself regarding my beliefs as an amillennial. I can say in general what most amillennials believe. I have not risen to the level of some dispensationalists who claim omniscience.

Sometimes agedman you make borderline or better stupid responses. Even you should know that Jesus Christ is now sitting at the right hand of the Father.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Notice agedman Scripture states: angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Now the angels are likely in the presence of God but where are the "authorities and powers that are subject to Jesus Christ"?

No aged man the problem is in the convoluted dispensational mind.

1. In case you are unaware Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice.
2. Perhaps you are correct on this one. If he did I suspect a lot of dispensationalists would receive a corrective beating for believing Jesus Christ died for a parenthesis.
3. Your problem is that you do not understand grammatical forms.
4. There never will be a Temple in Jerusalem related to the worship of God. "O Ye of little understanding".
5. There is nothing I can do about those who are stiffnecked substitutes for the stiffnecked Jews.
6. You do err grievously, not understanding anything about The Book of Revelation.
7. You have a problem agedman for you are making a liar out of Scripture and Jesus Christ. I could post relevant Scripture but the great Apostle Paul sais "search the Scripture".
8. That is because he is still at the right hand of God agedman.

Emphasis added.

And what has all that got to do with Scripture?

Please don't deliberately lie agedman. I have not said that literal applications of Revelation are heretical; stupid perhaps but not heretical. But I am sure dispensationalists are working on it!

I have said and say again that it is Heretical to teach Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, that He failed, and as a fallback position established His Church for which He died. That is a Heretical teaching.

Jesus Christ said to God the Father:

John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now Jesus Christ said He had completed the work the Father gave Him to do. If you want to lie about that then do so! But don't lie about me saying I have stated literal applications of Revelation are heretical.

???????????????????????????????JUST FOR AGEDMAN, DON'T DODGE THEM AGEDMAN????????????????????????????????????????

Agedman, I am responding to your endless questions now please respond to the two I have asked you. I am reposting them

1. Do you believe the following Scripture is to be understood as literal?

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2. Is John factual, your poor choice of words not mine, in John 6: 50-56? Or is factual in the eye of the beholder!

50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Have you eaten the flesh and drunk the blood of Jesus Christ yet, agedman?

 

Just throw away the tribulation and the 1000 year reign and you will be close.

 

I know just what you mean agedman. Some folks were swingin in the trees, tarzan like, back in them days.

You dispensationalist teach an any moment rapture and then you limit when God is able to do the rapture while He waits on man to make a helicopter or some such. You see how asinine your doctrine is agedman. I won't dignify it by calling it "theology".

 

Your last statement is correct. The age to come would have to be between the time Jesus Christ was speaking and His Second Coming.

 

The First Resurrection

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennium, or as some would claim the ‘millennial kingdom’.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is necessarily implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period, the ‘millennium’, in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of this ‘millennial’ reign.

Now what does John see?

First John sees thrones. These thrones are occupied but their occupants are not identified. Now we may conclude without doubt that these thrones represent power and those who occupy them have power, the power to judge.

Second John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses.

In order to further understand what John is teaching in Revelation 20:4-6 we must now determine :

1. Who is sovereign, who is reigning on earth and throughout creation at the present time, Jesus Christ or Satan? If Jesus Christ is not reigning now when does that reign begin?

2. What is the First Resurrection?

3. Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection

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1. Scripture is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is sovereign now, is reigning now.

1 Peter 3:21-22, KJV
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Ephesians 1:20-22, KJV
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church.

In each of these passages it is made abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is reigning now, both on earth and throughout His creation.

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2. What does Scripture mean when it speaks of the ‘first resurrection’?

If we search the Scriptures, in fact if we search secular history, we will read of only one person who died and came to life never to die again. That person was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. It is true that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, records accounts of people being raised from the dead:

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b]3. Who are those who have part in the first resurrection; why are they blessed and holy? [/b]

As noted above Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

John 5:24-26, KJV
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 11:25, KJV
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the rebirth, the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this ‘rebirth’ can never die, will never experience the ‘second death’. There are some who believe that this spiritual rebirth is the ‘first’ resurrection indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. The spiritual rebirth is an event that takes place during this life of those who are chosen to salvation. Therefore, this interpretation does not satisfy either the context or the content of the passage.

Those who have part in the ‘first’ resurrection are the elect of God, those who are redeemed to Him through faith in resurrected Saviour. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the first resurrection.

Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17]. Theirs is an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [1 Peter 1:4]. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11].

Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].

 

The First Resurrection

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennium, or as some would claim the ‘millennial kingdom’.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is necessarily implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period, the ‘millennium’, in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of this ‘millennial’ reign.

Now what does John see?

First John sees thrones. These thrones are occupied but their occupants are not identified. Now we may conclude without doubt that these thrones represent power and those who occupy them have power, the power to judge.

Second John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses.

In order to further understand what John is teaching in Revelation 20:4-6 we must now determine :

1. Who is sovereign, who is reigning on earth and throughout creation at the present time, Jesus Christ or Satan? If Jesus Christ is not reigning now when does that reign begin?

2. What is the First Resurrection?

3. Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection

***************************************************

1. Scripture is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is sovereign now, is reigning now.

1 Peter 3:21-22, KJV
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Ephesians 1:20-22, KJV
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church.

In each of these passages it is made abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is reigning now, both on earth and throughout His creation.

***************************************************************

2. What does Scripture mean when it speaks of the ‘first resurrection’?

If we search the Scriptures, in fact if we search secular history, we will read of only one person who died and came to life never to die again. That person was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. It is true that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, records accounts of people being raised from the dead:

************************************************************

3. Who are those who have part in the first resurrection; why are they blessed and holy?

As noted above Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

John 5:24-26, KJV
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 11:25, KJV
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the rebirth, the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this ‘rebirth’ can never die, will never experience the ‘second death’. There are some who believe that this spiritual rebirth is the ‘first’ resurrection indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. The spiritual rebirth is an event that takes place during this life of those who are chosen to salvation. Therefore, this interpretation does not satisfy either the context or the content of the passage.

Those who have part in the ‘first’ resurrection are the elect of God, those who are redeemed to Him through faith in resurrected Saviour. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the first resurrection.

Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17]. Theirs is an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [1 Peter 1:4]. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11].

Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].

 

You need to read it again agedman.

1. I show that the First Resurrection is that of Jesus Christ and the Scripture is not referring to some pre trib resurrection as dispensationalists insist.

2. I show that those who have part in the First resurrection are the redeemed, the elect of God.

3. I show that John does not see resurrected bodies on the thrones but the souls of deceased Saints.

4. I show that Jesus Christ is reigning now and reigning with the souls of the deceased Saints in Heaven.

5. The Scripture passage and my remarks demonstrate that the amillennial doctrine is correct.


Now you show me any Scripture that teach a pre-trib Rapture!

 

You should not because you would have to warp Scripture to suit your dispensational schooling and that is adding to the Revelation of God.

agedman

John's record is factual. It is only the dispensational warping of Scripture that renders it

.

I note your remark

with amazement. Such admission of lack of Scriptural basis for their dogma is refreshing from a dispensationalist.

 

The Second Resurrection

The Second Resurrection

The Apostle Paul writes of the spiritual resurrection, regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, as follows:

Ephesians 2:4-7, KJV
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, {by grace ye are saved;}
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

When we were ‘dead in sins’, spiritually dead, God made us alive together with Jesus Christ and raised us up to sit with Him in heavenly places, a spiritual resurrection. There is a sense in which the believer now sits in heavenly places with the Saviour, that is, the spiritual communion between the believer and the Father through Jesus Christ. This promise is further realized in the death of the believer and will be fully realized when redemption is complete with the resurrection of the body. However in the meantime while the deceased saints await the resurrection of the body John tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Apostle Paul aptly clarifies the significance of the first and second resurrections in the following passage from 1 Corinthians. Note that though Paul is speaking specifically about the Saints, the resurrection of the unsaved is implied in Verses 24-26.

1 Corinthians 15:16-26, KJV
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

I noted at the beginning of the discussion of Revelation 20:4-6 that the passage teaches, or implies, two resurrections. It has been demonstrated above that the ‘first resurrection’, and the only resurrection to date, is that of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection, though not so called, is the general resurrection of all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved [John 5:28, 29], that will occur when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There are differing interpretations of Revelation 20:4-6, however, any interpretation of this passage must be such that it does not conflict with other Scripture, in particular John 5:28, 29 in which a literal interpretation is indicated [i.e., is not written in symbolic or apocalyptic language] as discussed below.

John also tells us But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Who are the rest of the dead? John has been speaking of the souls of those who will reign with Jesus Christ. We noted that though a second resurrection was not mentioned as such it was implied by the indication of a ‘first resurrection’. Similarly the mention of the second death implies that there is a ‘first death’. Insofar as the individual is concerned the ‘first death’ is the physical death which all will experience unless the Lord returns first.

We see, therefore, that the rest of the dead are those who died in Adam [Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22], who have not been redeemed to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Though some of these may be physically alive at the return of Jesus Christ they are spiritually dead, dead in sin. At the return of the Lord in power and glory these dead will be judged before the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15].

The most clear and significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word wra [hora] and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4 any definite time, point of time, moment

Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’ obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.

To summarize the above discussion we note that Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only person to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been born again [John 3:7], that is, undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25] through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ [John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:9]. The second resurrection will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. It follows then that only those who have been born again who have part in the first resurrection can be considered belessed and holy[/b][/color][/i] [Revelation 20:6, KJV]. Those who do not have part in the first resurrection, those who through unbelief have rejected Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death, stand condemned before God and will experience the second death.

Revelation 20:4-6 cannot be used to prove : {1}. A pre-trib resurrection of the believers or {2} A 1000 year earthly kingdom in which the Jews are dominant. Correct understanding of what is meant by the First Resurrection and those who have a part in that Resurrection is consistent with the teachings of amillennialism.

 

I won't argue with that!