Revelation 19 & 20

[asterisktom]

I have been trying to read over what is being said and it gets difficult to follow, but here you make yourself more clear. So here is my question. If there is no Mill rule of Christ then what age to come was He speaking about in Mat. 12:32?
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.

It cannot be the age you just mentioned because only the saved will be there so what age is He speaking about?

The "this age" was the closing Jewish age, the "last days" of the New Testament. The "age to come" is indeed the age we are now living in. Look more carefully at the context of the passage you quoted.

Your saying "cannot" has no weight on your argument. It is a bald assertion without Scripture backing.

 

[freeatlast]

The "this age" was the closing Jewish age, the "last days" of the New Testament. The "age to come" is indeed the age we are now living in. Look more carefully at the context of the passage you quoted.

Your saying "cannot" has no weight on your argument. It is a bald assertion without Scripture backing.

So you do not believe that Christ has to be physically present for someone to blaspheme the Spirit?

 

[OldRegular]

Not exactly true agedman. Most amillennials believe that we are in the millennial reign now. Some may hold to increased tribulation near the return of Jesus Christ but the rapture and GRReAAT Seven year tribulation are dispensational error. As for the New Heavens and New Earth some believe in a renewal consistent with Romans 8. Others believe they will be completely new .

"Not exactly," "Most amillennials," "Some may hold," "Some believe."

Ok, so you are showing that not all buy into every line of the covenant thinking and parse out what they view as agreeable. Do they hold those who do not agree with their parse work as heretical?

Agedman, I can speak for myself regarding my beliefs as an amillennial. I can say in general what most amillennials believe. I have not risen to the level of some dispensationalists who claim omniscience.

This bit about "we are in the millennial reign now": If you think Christ is ruling from a seat in Muslim mosque at Jerusalem, I would wonder if that is not a worse violation of Scriptures. However it isn't stated as your view but that of what "Most" would hold.

Sometimes agedman you make borderline or better stupid responses. Even you should know that Jesus Christ is now sitting at the right hand of the Father.

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Notice agedman Scripture states: angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Now the angels are likely in the presence of God but where are the "authorities and powers that are subject to Jesus Christ"?

Here are some problems with that thinking (we are in the millennium).

1st - there is no worship of sacrifices taking place as will be in the millennium. (These are not sin offerings, for Christ was "once offered" and there is no need of "continual sin offerings.")
2nd - historically evident is that Christ does not rule with the rod of iron all the world.
3rd - the last time a lamb laid down with a lion in the wild, it was while the lion was enjoying lamb chops.
4th - there is no Temple in Jerusalem. Actually there is no throne of David, either - the land is ruled by political associations and agreements.
5th - two witnesses haven't been slain in the streets and laid out for the world to rejoice over their death as if it were a great party - giving gifts to each other.
6th - saints that are currently secure under the altar crying out "how long..." are not ruling with Christ over the earthly matters.
7th - Satan and satanic powers are not bound and of no effect.
8th - Every eye has not seen Him.

The list could go on - but frankly it is really not necessary to the point being made.

No aged man the problem is in the convoluted dispensational mind.

1. In case you are unaware Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice.
2. Perhaps you are correct on this one. If he did I suspect a lot of dispensationalists would receive a corrective beating for believing Jesus Christ died for a parenthesis.
3. Your problem is that you do not understand grammatical forms.
4. There never will be a Temple in Jerusalem related to the worship of God. "O Ye of little understanding".
5. There is nothing I can do about those who are stiffnecked substitutes for the stiffnecked Jews.
6. You do err grievously, not understanding anything about The Book of Revelation.
7. You have a problem agedman for you are making a liar out of Scripture and Jesus Christ. I could post relevant Scripture but the great Apostle Paul sais "search the Scripture".
8. That is because he is still at the right hand of God agedman.

Earlier remark Posted by agedman
What is so remarkable is that this is view is similar to evolutionary thinking, and that presented by the syfy folks of the Star Trek genre in which humanoid forms are expressed as superior beings having evolved into a more rational state (Spok) and metaphysical states (Q). It is a view that shows the church ushering in the kingdom of God, and not Christ.

Response by OldRegular to agedman's science fiction]This is more pathetic, irrational nonsense agedman. Can't you think of a better way to slime those who don't buy into your dispensational error?

Emphasis added.

[More science fiction from agedman]Pre-WWI and II, there were those that really didn't and couldn't imagine the reality of the prophets and especially the Revelation - it was all as fanciful as nuclear powered submarines of Jules Verne's 20000 Leagues Under the Sea. That just isn't the knowledge we currently enjoy.

And what has all that got to do with Scripture?

Back to the point. You have yet to show how John was inaccurate nor how literal applications of the Revelations are heretical.

Please don't deliberately lie agedman. I have not said that literal applications of Revelation are heretical; stupid perhaps but not heretical. But I am sure dispensationalists are working on it!

I have said and say again that it is Heretical to teach Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, that He failed, and as a fallback position established His Church for which He died. That is a Heretical teaching.

Jesus Christ said to God the Father:

John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now Jesus Christ said He had completed the work the Father gave Him to do. If you want to lie about that then do so! But don't lie about me saying I have stated literal applications of Revelation are heretical.

???????????????????????????????JUST FOR AGEDMAN, DON'T DODGE THEM AGEDMAN????????????????????????????????????????

Agedman, I am responding to your endless questions now please respond to the two I have asked you. I am reposting them

1. Do you believe the following Scripture is to be understood as literal?

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2. Is John factual, your poor choice of words not mine, in John 6: 50-56? Or is factual in the eye of the beholder!

50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Have you eaten the flesh and drunk the blood of Jesus Christ yet, agedman?

 

[OldRegular]

Okay, I'm just wanting to make sure I understand what you are saying... I don't quite follow where each of those points fits on the timeline and especially where the "end of time" fits in. Is this representative of your understanding:

1. Christ's second coming
2. Tribulation
3. General resurrection
4. Great White Throne Judgement
5. 1000 year reign
6. marriage supper
7. END OF TIME
8. old earth and heaven pass away
9. new heaven and new earth
10. the redeemed dwelling with the Triune God.

Just throw away the tribulation and the 1000 year reign and you will be close.

 

[OldRegular]

It is easy to excuse those Pre-WWII folks as being unable to construct from lack of similar invention the scenes of the Revelation.

I know just what you mean agedman. Some folks were swingin in the trees, tarzan like, back in them days.

You dispensationalist teach an any moment rapture and then you limit when God is able to do the rapture while He waits on man to make a helicopter or some such. You see how asinine your doctrine is agedman. I won't dignify it by calling it "theology".

 

[freeatlast]

Just throw away the tribulation and the 1000 year reign and you will be close.

I have been trying to read over what is being said and it gets difficult to follow, but here you make yourself more clear. So here is my question. If there is no Mill rule of Christ then what age to come was He speaking about in Mat. 12:32?
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.

It cannot be the age you just mentioned because only the saved will be there so what age is He speaking about?

 

[OldRegular]

I have been trying to read over what is being said and it gets difficult to follow, but here you make yourself more clear. So here is my question. If there is no Mill rule of Christ then what age to come was He speaking about in Mat. 12:32?
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.

It cannot be the age you just mentioned because only the saved will be there so what age is He speaking about?

Your last statement is correct. The age to come would have to be between the time Jesus Christ was speaking and His Second Coming.

 

[humblethinker]

Just throw away the tribulation and the 1000 year reign and you will be close.

great, thanks. So, here it is, not necessarily exhaustive but nonetheless accurate, correct?:

1. Christ's second coming
2. General resurrection
3. Great White Throne Judgement
4. marriage supper
5. END OF TIME
6. old earth and heaven pass away
7. new heaven and new earth
8. the redeemed dwelling with the Triune God.

Regarding the "end of time": Since you don't mean that it is just the end of metered time's existence, can you offer a description as to what kind of existence can be experienced after the end of time for created beings? I'm not sure what the experience would be analogous to so I'd appreciate an elucidation of the idea.

Now my question is this: How do you reason that there are events and things in relationship after the "end of time"? Isn't that a contradiction much like saying, "There will be events and things in relation and sequence in an existence where events and things do not exist in relation or sequence."?

 

[freeatlast]

Your last statement is correct. The age to come would have to be between the time Jesus Christ was speaking and His Second Coming.

Alright, but haven't you held in the past that for someone to blaspheme the Holy Spirit Jesus has to be physically present just like He was in the first age?

 

[OldRegular]

The First Resurrection

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennium, or as some would claim the ‘millennial kingdom’.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is necessarily implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period, the ‘millennium’, in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of this ‘millennial’ reign.

Now what does John see?

First John sees thrones. These thrones are occupied but their occupants are not identified. Now we may conclude without doubt that these thrones represent power and those who occupy them have power, the power to judge.

Second John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses.

In order to further understand what John is teaching in Revelation 20:4-6 we must now determine :

1. Who is sovereign, who is reigning on earth and throughout creation at the present time, Jesus Christ or Satan? If Jesus Christ is not reigning now when does that reign begin?

2. What is the First Resurrection?

3. Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection

***************************************************

1. Scripture is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is sovereign now, is reigning now.

1 Peter 3:21-22, KJV
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Ephesians 1:20-22, KJV
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church.

In each of these passages it is made abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is reigning now, both on earth and throughout His creation.

***************************************************************

2. What does Scripture mean when it speaks of the ‘first resurrection’?

If we search the Scriptures, in fact if we search secular history, we will read of only one person who died and came to life never to die again. That person was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. It is true that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, records accounts of people being raised from the dead:

************************************************************

b]3. Who are those who have part in the first resurrection; why are they blessed and holy? [/b]

As noted above Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

John 5:24-26, KJV
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 11:25, KJV
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the rebirth, the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this ‘rebirth’ can never die, will never experience the ‘second death’. There are some who believe that this spiritual rebirth is the ‘first’ resurrection indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. The spiritual rebirth is an event that takes place during this life of those who are chosen to salvation. Therefore, this interpretation does not satisfy either the context or the content of the passage.

Those who have part in the ‘first’ resurrection are the elect of God, those who are redeemed to Him through faith in resurrected Saviour. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the first resurrection.

Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17]. Theirs is an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [1 Peter 1:4]. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11].

Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].

 

[OldRegular]

The First Resurrection

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennium, or as some would claim the ‘millennial kingdom’.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is necessarily implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period, the ‘millennium’, in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of this ‘millennial’ reign.

Now what does John see?

First John sees thrones. These thrones are occupied but their occupants are not identified. Now we may conclude without doubt that these thrones represent power and those who occupy them have power, the power to judge.

Second John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses.

In order to further understand what John is teaching in Revelation 20:4-6 we must now determine :

1. Who is sovereign, who is reigning on earth and throughout creation at the present time, Jesus Christ or Satan? If Jesus Christ is not reigning now when does that reign begin?

2. What is the First Resurrection?

3. Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection

***************************************************

1. Scripture is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is sovereign now, is reigning now.

1 Peter 3:21-22, KJV
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Ephesians 1:20-22, KJV
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church.

In each of these passages it is made abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is reigning now, both on earth and throughout His creation.

***************************************************************

2. What does Scripture mean when it speaks of the ‘first resurrection’?

If we search the Scriptures, in fact if we search secular history, we will read of only one person who died and came to life never to die again. That person was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. It is true that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, records accounts of people being raised from the dead:

************************************************************

3. Who are those who have part in the first resurrection; why are they blessed and holy?

As noted above Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

John 5:24-26, KJV
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 11:25, KJV
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the rebirth, the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this ‘rebirth’ can never die, will never experience the ‘second death’. There are some who believe that this spiritual rebirth is the ‘first’ resurrection indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. The spiritual rebirth is an event that takes place during this life of those who are chosen to salvation. Therefore, this interpretation does not satisfy either the context or the content of the passage.

Those who have part in the ‘first’ resurrection are the elect of God, those who are redeemed to Him through faith in resurrected Saviour. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the first resurrection.

Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17]. Theirs is an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [1 Peter 1:4]. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11].

Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].

 

[agedman]

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennium, or as some would claim the ‘millennial kingdom’.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is necessarily implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period, the ‘millennium’, in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of this ‘millennial’ reign.

"In the beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic..."

Do you actually "concede" in this paragraph that there is a millennial reign?

You certainly haven't shown the lack of one by the rest of the post.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennium, or as some would claim the ‘millennial kingdom’.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is necessarily implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period, the ‘millennium’, in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of this ‘millennial’ reign.

"In the beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic..."

Do you actually "concede" in this paragraph that there is a millennial reign?

You certainly haven't shown the lack of one by the rest of the post.

You need to read it again agedman.

1. I show that the First Resurrection is that of Jesus Christ and the Scripture is not referring to some pre trib resurrection as dispensationalists insist.

2. I show that those who have part in the First resurrection are the redeemed, the elect of God.

3. I show that John does not see resurrected bodies on the thrones but the souls of deceased Saints.

4. I show that Jesus Christ is reigning now and reigning with the souls of the deceased Saints in Heaven.

5. The Scripture passage and my remarks demonstrate that the amillennial doctrine is correct.


Now you show me any Scripture that teach a pre-trib Rapture!

 

[agedman]

You need to read it again agedman.

1. I show that the First Resurrection is that of Jesus Christ and the Scripture is not referring to some pre trib resurrection as dispensationalists insist.

This statement presents no problem with those who hold a post trib rapture.

Those that hold to a "pre-trib" is NOT the only demarcation of what dispensation folks view. Only some hold to a pre-trib rapture, some mid trib, some post trib - the rapture is not what starts the millennium and really has no real bearing upon the millennium other than the typical dispensation view is that it will occur.

2. I show that those who have part in the First resurrection are the redeemed, the elect of God.

And this proves there is no millennium? That the redeemed are the elect of God and take part in the first resurrection, is no statement against a millennium.

3. I show that John does not see resurrected bodies on the thrones but the souls of deceased Saints.

This doesn't disprove a millennium. Early in the Revelation, John records the saints under the alter - that doesn't disprove a millennium either. Verses later in the chapter show the saints returning to earth with Christ. THAT is were your focus should be, not while they are in heaven in preparation.

4. I show that Jesus Christ is reigning now and reigning with the souls of the deceased Saints in Heaven.

Who is the god of this world? Who is the father of the heathen? Who is the authority of the unregenerate?

I have no problem with God being God, with Christ returning as King of King and Lord of Lords, with the binding of Satan and satanic influence, and the rule of the total earth by a system that blends both the Spiritual and political into one. That is the difficulty of the a-mill folk.

What was EXACTLY the prayer of Jesus?

"THY kingdom come, THY will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven."

How would Jesus have offered such an example for the believers to pray if the kingdom is already existing on this earth?

Christ didn't state in his remarks at trial that He would not return and establish the kingdom, but that His kingdom was not of this world - that it is in essence not based upon the values and authorities of the world system(s), but upon Him and the principles of His Word.

5. The Scripture passage and my remarks demonstrate that the amillennial doctrine is correct.

You have made as Einstein said at death - a leap into the dark. You have proved nothing, and demonstrated no foundation to show that John is wrong.

You have glibly refused to remark specifically about John's passage where he shows exactly the number of years, and the rule of the kingdom that takes place on this earth.

You have attempted in vain to make much ado about items leading up to the reign and not address the focal argument.

Now you show me any Scripture that teach a pre-trib Rapture!

Why should I?

Until you can show John's record is inaccurate and unworthy to be taken as factual, there is no purpose in distracting to other matters such as the pre-trib rapture which is acknowledged by most dispensation folks as hoped for with little actual Scriptural authority. (I know that some will argue that point, but it isn't worthy of the contention)

 

[convicted1]

A-mill do not accept that there is a real 1000 year reign of Christ, nor do they generally hold to an end time tribulation, a rapture of the saints, and the question of the earth and heaven being completely replaced is at times questioned.

The general idea is that the world will get better and better, until some type of utopia is reached.

What is so remarkable is that this is view is similar to evolutionary thinking, and that presented by the syfy folks of the Star Trek genre in which humanoid forms are expressed as superior beings having evolved into a more rational state (Spok) and metaphysical states (Q). It is a view that shows the church ushering in the kingdom of God, and not Christ.

I am amil, and I sure don't believe the world will get better and better, but worse, as evidenced by all that is going on in the world right now.

 

[OldRegular]

Why should I?

You should not because you would have to warp Scripture to suit your dispensational schooling and that is adding to the Revelation of God.

Until you can show John's record is inaccurate and unworthy to be taken as factual, there is no purpose in distracting to other matters such as the pre-trib rapture which is acknowledged by most dispensation folks as hoped for with little actual Scriptural authority. (I know that some will argue that point, but it isn't worthy of the contention)

agedman

John's record is factual. It is only the dispensational warping of Scripture that renders it

inaccurate and unworthy to be taken as factual

.

I note your remark

there is no purpose in distracting to other matters such as the pre-trib rapture which is acknowledged by most dispensation folks as hoped for with little actual Scriptural authority.

with amazement. Such admission of lack of Scriptural basis for their dogma is refreshing from a dispensationalist.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

great, thanks. So, here it is, not necessarily exhaustive but nonetheless accurate, correct?:

1. Christ's second coming
2. General resurrection
3. Great White Throne Judgement
4. marriage supper
5. END OF TIME
6. old earth and heaven pass away
7. new heaven and new earth
8. the redeemed dwelling with the Triune God.

Regarding the "end of time": Since you don't mean that it is just the end of metered time's existence, can you offer a description as to what kind of existence can be experienced after the end of time for created beings? I'm not sure what the experience would be analogous to so I'd appreciate an elucidation of the idea.

Now my question is this: How do you reason that there are events and things in relationship after the "end of time"? Isn't that a contradiction much like saying, "There will be events and things in relation and sequence in an existence where events and things do not exist in relation or sequence."?

Hey, just to let you know I got your private messages and tried to reply, but it said your box is full. Clear some space, and I'll send you a PM.

Thanks!

 

[OldRegular]

The Second Resurrection

The Second Resurrection

The Apostle Paul writes of the spiritual resurrection, regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, as follows:

Ephesians 2:4-7, KJV
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, {by grace ye are saved;}
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

When we were ‘dead in sins’, spiritually dead, God made us alive together with Jesus Christ and raised us up to sit with Him in heavenly places, a spiritual resurrection. There is a sense in which the believer now sits in heavenly places with the Saviour, that is, the spiritual communion between the believer and the Father through Jesus Christ. This promise is further realized in the death of the believer and will be fully realized when redemption is complete with the resurrection of the body. However in the meantime while the deceased saints await the resurrection of the body John tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Apostle Paul aptly clarifies the significance of the first and second resurrections in the following passage from 1 Corinthians. Note that though Paul is speaking specifically about the Saints, the resurrection of the unsaved is implied in Verses 24-26.

1 Corinthians 15:16-26, KJV
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

I noted at the beginning of the discussion of Revelation 20:4-6 that the passage teaches, or implies, two resurrections. It has been demonstrated above that the ‘first resurrection’, and the only resurrection to date, is that of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection, though not so called, is the general resurrection of all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved [John 5:28, 29], that will occur when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There are differing interpretations of Revelation 20:4-6, however, any interpretation of this passage must be such that it does not conflict with other Scripture, in particular John 5:28, 29 in which a literal interpretation is indicated [i.e., is not written in symbolic or apocalyptic language] as discussed below.

John also tells us But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Who are the rest of the dead? John has been speaking of the souls of those who will reign with Jesus Christ. We noted that though a second resurrection was not mentioned as such it was implied by the indication of a ‘first resurrection’. Similarly the mention of the second death implies that there is a ‘first death’. Insofar as the individual is concerned the ‘first death’ is the physical death which all will experience unless the Lord returns first.

We see, therefore, that the rest of the dead are those who died in Adam [Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22], who have not been redeemed to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Though some of these may be physically alive at the return of Jesus Christ they are spiritually dead, dead in sin. At the return of the Lord in power and glory these dead will be judged before the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15].

The most clear and significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word wra [hora] and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4 any definite time, point of time, moment

Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’ obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.

To summarize the above discussion we note that Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only person to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been born again [John 3:7], that is, undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25] through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ [John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:9]. The second resurrection will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. It follows then that only those who have been born again who have part in the first resurrection can be considered belessed and holy[/b][/color][/i] [Revelation 20:6, KJV]. Those who do not have part in the first resurrection, those who through unbelief have rejected Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death, stand condemned before God and will experience the second death.

Revelation 20:4-6 cannot be used to prove : {1}. A pre-trib resurrection of the believers or {2} A 1000 year earthly kingdom in which the Jews are dominant. Correct understanding of what is meant by the First Resurrection and those who have a part in that Resurrection is consistent with the teachings of amillennialism.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Second Resurrection

The Apostle Paul writes of the spiritual resurrection, regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, as follows:

Ephesians 2:4-7, KJV
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, {by grace ye are saved;}
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

When we were ‘dead in sins’, spiritually dead, God made us alive together with Jesus Christ and raised us up to sit with Him in heavenly places, a spiritual resurrection. There is a sense in which the believer now sits in heavenly places with the Saviour, that is, the spiritual communion between the believer and the Father through Jesus Christ. This promise is further realized in the death of the believer and will be fully realized when redemption is complete with the resurrection of the body. However in the meantime while the deceased saints await the resurrection of the body John tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Apostle Paul aptly clarifies the significance of the first and second resurrections in the following passage from 1 Corinthians. Note that though Paul is speaking specifically about the Saints, the resurrection of the unsaved is implied in Verses 24-26.

1 Corinthians 15:16-26, KJV
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

I noted at the beginning of the discussion of Revelation 20:4-6 that the passage teaches, or implies, two resurrections. It has been demonstrated above that the ‘first resurrection’, and the only resurrection to date, is that of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection, though not so called, is the general resurrection of all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved [John 5:28, 29], that will occur when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There are differing interpretations of Revelation 20:4-6, however, any interpretation of this passage must be such that it does not conflict with other Scripture, in particular John 5:28, 29 in which a literal interpretation is indicated [i.e., is not written in symbolic or apocalyptic language] as discussed below.

John also tells us But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Who are the rest of the dead? John has been speaking of the souls of those who will reign with Jesus Christ. We noted that though a second resurrection was not mentioned as such it was implied by the indication of a ‘first resurrection’. Similarly the mention of the second death implies that there is a ‘first death’. Insofar as the individual is concerned the ‘first death’ is the physical death which all will experience unless the Lord returns first.

We see, therefore, that the rest of the dead are those who died in Adam [Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22], who have not been redeemed to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Though some of these may be physically alive at the return of Jesus Christ they are spiritually dead, dead in sin. At the return of the Lord in power and glory these dead will be judged before the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15].

The most clear and significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word wra [hora] and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4 any definite time, point of time, moment

Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’ obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.

To summarize the above discussion we note that Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only person to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been born again [John 3:7], that is, undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25] through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ [John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:9]. The second resurrection will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. It follows then that only those who have been born again who have part in the first resurrection can be considered belessed and holy[/b][/color][/i] [Revelation 20:6, KJV]. Those who do not have part in the first resurrection, those who through unbelief have rejected Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death, stand condemned before God and will experience the second death.

Revelation 20:4-6 cannot be used to prove : {1}. A pre-trib resurrection of the believers or {2} A 1000 year earthly kingdom in which the Jews are dominant. Correct understanding of what is meant by the First Resurrection and those who have a part in that Resurrection is consistent with the teachings of amillennialism.

Whikle here on earth in our physical bodies, its that god sees us in Chrsit, knows the future glorification, so He sees us, as he knows all things!

But we are confined here though, and at death our spiritual side goes to God, while at the second coming of jesus, we will be raised physically again, and with new glorified bodies!

jesus experienced a physical, bodily resurrection, as we will also!

 

[OldRegular]

Whikle here on earth in our physical bodies, its that god sees us in Chrsit, knows the future glorification, so He sees us, as he knows all things!

But we are confined here though, and at death our spiritual side goes to God, while at the second coming of jesus, we will be raised physically again, and with new glorified bodies!

jesus experienced a physical, bodily resurrection, as we will also!

I won't argue with that!