Is there any historical evidence for the Baptist position on Baptism?

[Thinkingstuff]

I haven't misrepresented anything.

Yes you did when you said.

Did you realize that the earth was stationary up until 1992 when the pope pronounced that the earth revolved around the sun? Quite a revelation, huh?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So in essence, you are arguing that the scriptures are worthless in and of themselves and any attempt to read, understand or be taught them constitutes Oral Tradition?





Following that line of thinking then Timothy's Mother and Grandmother's teaching must be regarded by Rome as "Sacred Tradition" on the very same level as Apostolic Oral Traditions? He did include their teaching ALONG WITH His own teachings to Timothy and called Timothy to honor both did he not?

However, you miss the obvious! The validity of oral is established by the written NOT VICE VERSA! That is precisely why we are called to TEST the teachings of prophets and if they speak not according to validated scriptures they are to be rejected (Isa. 8:20).

Even the Apostles oral teaching was to be subjected to Scriptures already confirmed - Acts 17 and the Bereans were congratualted for not simply accepting his teachings but testing them by the Scriptures and thus are said to be "more nobel" .

Why? Because oral teaching is SECONDARY to the authority of scriptures and that is precisely where Roman Catholic Tradition fails the test of Scriptures just as the Jewish Oral Traditions failed the test of scriptures.

Quite so. And that is why when anything is placed on the same level as scripture, error abounds.

 

[The Biblicist]

I never said anything of the sort. Show me where I said that. However, it is true that no document interprets itself. That is a logical falacy.

Read your own words! The very nature of your argument demands that as you insist that Timothy could not be taught by the Scriptures but rather by oral traditions. However, both his parents were quite aware of the Old Testament test - Isa. 8:20 and would also teach Timothy not to believe a word they said that could not be confirmed by scriptures as the scriptuers explicitly demand that and he was taught the scriptures was he not??????

Funny thats not what they determined the at the council of Jerusalem. They wrote a letter and validated by the Oral confirmation of Judas and Silas.

The apostles were prophets and their oral witness preceded their written witness. However, as prophets what they said and wrote was subject to the the tests of the prophets recorded in the scriptures rather than the test of ORAL traditions!!!!! Both their oral and written statements were subject to the scriptures and that is precisely why Paul called the Bereans more "noble" because they refused to accept ORAL TRADITION BY THE APOSTLE as final but tested it and only when it passed the test of scriptures did they receive it.

After their death the same procedure would be necessitated by scriptures. Any professed ORAL TRADITION would be first subjected to the written apostolic scriptures and whatever was validated by the apostolic scriptures would be received as truth. Hence, this process COMPLETELY ELIMINATED oral traditions altogether as only what was found in scriptures was approved and thus nothing more than scriptures were necessary and final as authority for doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof.

The Apostles are not living today! In Acts 15 They had not yet produced the New Testament scriptures (Isa. 8:16-20). They were prophets and spoke under inspiration.

 

[Wittenberger]

FYI: I am currently commenting on baptism on only one thread "The Baptism Debate". See my ongoing comments there.

Wittenberger
www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com

 

[Yeshua1]

The point that is true is that your scriptures do not match the early churches scriptures and not all of the early churches scriptures were the same as the other churches scriptures until they became canonized.

ALL but a few WERE recognized by ALL as being the inspired texts from the original writers of the NT!

RCC did NOT create the Bible, it was already complete pretty and officially ised/recognized by the end of the Apostolic Age!

 

[Yeshua1]

By scripture themselves. Here is a quick answer for your question from Catholic answers.

you have to realise that those "traditions" were doctrines that paul was inspired by God to pass on! he received as a "tradition " that jesus was the humble Servant of the Lord in Phillipians, and also that Jesus said this at last supper...

big point is that the Apostle recorded down what the Lord intended him to write, the canon is closed, the bible is ONLY revelation from God to us!

traditions were perserved that were true by God thru His Apsotles, no more "living traditions",as no more forthcoming revelation from God!

traditions were truths that were true, but not divinly revealed to paul, or other Apostles, or they were spoken words from Apostles, which would be inspired truth, justvas the OT prophets when speaking or writting for God were inspired and gave revelation from God!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes you did when you said.

Here is what I posted originally:

"Official" catholic teachers have always had a difficult time with the facts. The Inquisitors summoned Galileo to a hearing and threatened to throw him into a dungeon and possibly torture him until he recanted concerning the fact that the earth revolved around the sun. In 1992 Pope John Paul II officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary -- it revolved around the sun."

That is fact.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Their scientific method wasn't very scientific. Their idea of "universities" was to exclude all others, so as to create an era known as the "Dark Ages" where ignorance abounded.

Take a look at ancient civilizations, long before the RCC or even Christianity existed. For example the building of the pyramids. There was a lot of "scientific know-how" involved in that marvel. But they did it. How, we don't exactly know. Their measurements had to be very precise. They had to have a way of moving things into exact positioning. The strength of the bricks had to be such at the bottom of the edifice that they could manage a tremendous amount of weight without crumbling. And yet there it stands for all these centuries.

None the less... the scientific method came from the university system created by the RCC. Taking it a little further, the Catholic Church pretty much created Western Civilization.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

What is of importance is the absolute ludicrousness of what you are feebly attempting to maintain.

Read some history and then get back to me.

I bet you believe that Al Gore invented the internet, too. :laugh:

I know very well how the Internet developed. One of my professors was involved in ARPANET and later went on to be the first person to network the New York Stock Exchange.

Feel better now?

WM

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Read some history and then get back to me.


Church history is one of my specialties; I've read quite a lot of it.


I know very well how the Internet developed. One of my professors was involved in ARPANET and later went on to be the first person to network the New York Stock Exchange.

Feel better now?

WM

See my reply in red within your post.

 

[WestminsterMan]

See my reply in red within your post.

In all honesty, if you really "studied history" then you couldn't possibly deny the importance of the RCC's influence on the development of Western Civilization and culture. For heaven's sake... it's what led mankind out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance! One doesn't need to study much history to discover that fact - a Western Civ 101 class would be sufficient.

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

you have to realise that those "traditions" were doctrines that paul was inspired by God to pass on! he received as a "tradition " that jesus was the humble Servant of the Lord in Phillipians, and also that Jesus said this at last supper...

Exactly so that is what the Catholic Church is speaking about when it speaks about tradition. And that coupled with the scriptures are the deposit of faith!!!

The Deposit of Faith is the body of doctrines handed down from Jesus to the Apostles, from the Apostles to their successors, and so forth to our times. The Deposit of Faith contains the complete body of doctrines that make up the Catholic Faith. Nothing new can be added that is not at least implicitly contained within the Deposit of Faith

big point is that the Apostle recorded down what the Lord intended him to write, the canon is closed, the bible is ONLY revelation from God to us!

The Canon is currently closed and what Jesus directly to the apostles are revelations from God not just what was writen down. However, it was a while before canon was closed. That is to say that doesn't mean all the books weren't already written but which books were to be canon wasn't decided until some time later. From the Catachism

It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture...God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

traditions were perserved that were true by God thru His Apsotles, no more "living traditions",as no more forthcoming revelation from God!

exactly as the catachism says

The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."

traditions were truths that were true, but not divinly revealed to paul, or other Apostles, or they were spoken words from Apostles, which would be inspired truth, justvas the OT prophets when speaking or writting for God were inspired and gave revelation from God!

They were inspired truths (which is a revelation from God. But you are on the same track as the Catholic Thinking about this from the Catachism.

Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

So we are generally in agreement with this. However, because of this the Catholic church goes on to say.

As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Here is what I posted originally:

"Official" catholic teachers have always had a difficult time with the facts. The Inquisitors summoned Galileo to a hearing and threatened to throw him into a dungeon and possibly torture him until he recanted concerning the fact that the earth revolved around the sun. In 1992 Pope John Paul II officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary -- it revolved around the sun."

That is fact.

Did you read the facts I presented to you about the Galileo affair? How you are mistaken is very similar to how Al Gore claimed to have inveneted the internet. Which was originally developed by professors of universities staying in contact which the contracted under the Advanced Research Project Agency which Al Gore supported when he came into office after its inseption by funding it because he wanted highspeed telecommunications. With the advances of TCP/IP architechture its develpment became taken over by the Department of Defence for development in the 80's and in the mid 80's the National Science Foundation spread it further and further developed it. The universities of Minnisota and Nevada made it more user friendly and finally one of the developers started Netscape browser until Microsoft beat it out. And now we have the internet. Its an over simplification and not quite true that Al Gore invented the internet. So it is with your over simplification of what happened to Galileo and the Pope.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

In all honesty, if you really "studied history" then you couldn't possibly deny the importance of the RCC's influence on the development of Western Civilization and culture. For heaven's sake... it's what led mankind out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance! One doesn't need to study much history to discover that fact - a Western Civ 101 class would be sufficient.

WM

Who said I denied the RCC influence on that? Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Did you read the facts I presented to you about the Galileo affair? How you are mistaken is very similar to how Al Gore claimed to have inveneted the internet. Which was originally developed by professors of universities staying in contact which the contracted under the Advanced Research Project Agency which Al Gore supported when he came into office after its inseption by funding it because he wanted highspeed telecommunications. With the advances of TCP/IP architechture its develpment became taken over by the Department of Defence for development in the 80's and in the mid 80's the National Science Foundation spread it further and further developed it. The universities of Minnisota and Nevada made it more user friendly and finally one of the developers started Netscape browser until Microsoft beat it out. And now we have the internet. Its an over simplification and not quite true that Al Gore invented the internet. So it is with your over simplification of what happened to Galileo and the Pope.

Thank you for your history lesson about the internet.

I am sufficiently informed about Galileo and the Church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ALL but a few WERE recognized by ALL as being the inspired texts from the original writers of the NT!

Which is my point

RCC did NOT create the Bible, it was already complete pretty and officially ised/recognized by the end of the Apostolic Age!

Show me a document which establishes all of the books of the NT which are now accepted as canon recognizing all the books at the end of the apostolic age. We know for instance that Tertullian held to the inspiration of the Shepherd of Hermas by quoting it in his work De oratione.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thank you for your history lesson about the internet.

I am sufficiently informed about Galileo and the Church.

I think not with your over simplification of the facts.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I think not with your over simplification of the facts.

Well, we are at an impasse because I know that I did not oversimplify anything.

However, I wish you God's grace and blessing.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, we are at an impasse because I know that I did not oversimplify anything.

However, I wish you God's grace and blessing.

Thank you and I ask for God's grace and mercy on your life that you may have a full and wonderful life culminating in the glorious resurrection and being numbered among his saints.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Thank you and I ask for God's grace and mercy on your life that you may have a full and wonderful life culminating in the glorious resurrection and being numbered among his saints.

And I pray and wish the same for you, and I look forward to meeting you there, if not before.