Jesus Christ Died for the Church; Did he Die for the Nation Israel?

[freeatlast]

I agree that He died for His sheep!

According to the bible He took away the sin of the world, not just the sheep.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[OldRegular]

If Jesus died for all men....there would be no need to say he died for the sheep, the church,those given by the Father....

If Jesus Christ died for all men then I believe all men would be saved!

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

And only for His sheep!

 

[Iconoclast]

According to the bible He took away the sin of the world, not just the sheep.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

If Jesus took the sins of the world away...how could these men die in their sins?
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins

 

[Iconoclast]

If Jesus Christ died for all men then I believe all men would be saved!




And only for His sheep!

Yes...all men would be saved ...because His perfect death saves all He died for:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

If Jesus took the sins of the world away...how could these men die in their sins?
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins

He didn't take the sins of the whole world away. He took the sin (singular) of the world away. We die in our sins (plural) if we do not repent and come to faith.Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier so some could be saved by grace through faith.The barrier of the fall was on all because we are all in Adam so He could not just remove part of it. Salvation comes to the elect, but all have the barrier removed, some just refuse the call. God’s election and man’s free will working to save some.

 

[Iconoclast]

He didn't take the sins of the whole world away. He took the sin (singular) of the world away. We die in our sins (plural) if we do not repent and come to faith.Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier so some could be saved by grace through faith.The barrier of the fall was on all because we are all in Adam so He could not just remove part of it. Salvation comes to the elect, but all have the barrier removed, some just refuse the call. God’s election and man’s free will working to save some.

Fal,

I know people say this:

[Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier /QUOTE]

But where does the bible say....he took away the barrier?
Where does it say...he removed some obstacles?

What it does say ...is this---

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.[/QUOTE]
Them.....that are sanctified....Fal can you find a verse that says the whole world is sanctified?????

Salvation comes to the elect, but all have the barrier removed, some just refuse the call

Fal......all would refuse the call.....except for election.....it is right there....the as you say[some just refuse] are the non elect.

 

[freeatlast]

Fal,

I know people say this:

[Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier /QUOTE]

But where does the bible say....he took away the barrier?
Where does it say...he removed some obstacles?

What it does say ...is this---

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.[/QUOTE]
Them.....that are sanctified....Fal can you find a verse that says the whole world is sanctified?????




Fal......all would refuse the call.....except for election.....it is right there....the as you say[some just refuse] are the non elect.

If the word barrier troubles you then you can remove it, but the fact is that He took away the sin of the world, not sins, and not the sin of the elect. Sanctification only comes after salvation.

 

[thomas15]

He did die for THE HOLY NATION....The Church

I know how to cut and paste:

James 2:2

(ASV) For if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing;

(Bishops) For yf there come into your companie a man wearing a golde ryng, clothed in goodly apparell, and there come in also a poore man in vile rayment:

(Coverdale) Yf ther come in to yor copany a ma wt a golde rynge and in goodly aparell, & ther come in also a poore man in vyle raymet,

(DRB) For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel; and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire:

(ESV) For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,

(Geneva) For if there come into your copany a man with a golde ring, and in goodly apparell, and there come in also a poore man in vile raiment,

(GNB) Suppose a rich man wearing a gold ring and fine clothes comes to your meeting, and a poor man in ragged clothes also comes.

(HCSB) For suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring, dressed in fine clothes, and a poor man dressed in dirty clothes also comes in.

(ISV) Suppose a man wearing gold rings and fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor man in dirty clothes also comes in.

(KJV) For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

(KJV+) ForG1063 ifG1437 there comeG1525 untoG1519 yourG5216 assemblyG4864 a manG435 with a gold ring,G5554 inG1722 goodlyG2986 apparel,G2066 andG1161 there come inG1525 alsoG2532 a poor manG4434 inG1722 vileG4508 raiment;G2066

(KJV-1611) For if there come vnto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poore man, in vile raiment:

(NAS77) For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,

(NASB) For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,

(NASB+) For ifG1437 a manG435 comesG1525 into your assemblyG4864 with a goldG5554 ringG5554 and dressed in fineG2986 clothesG2066, and there alsoG2532 comesG1525 in a poorG4434 manG4434 in dirtyG4508 clothesG2066,

(NET) For if someone5 comes into your assembly6 wearing a gold ring and fine clothing, and a poor person enters in filthy clothes,

(NIrV) Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes. And suppose a poor man in worn-out clothes also comes in.

(NIV) Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.

(NKJV) For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,

(RV) For if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing;

(TNIV) Suppose someone comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor person in filthy old clothes also comes in.

(Tyndale) Yf ther come into youre company a man with a golden rynge and in goodly aparell and ther come in also a poore man in vyle rayment

(YLT) for if there may come into your synagogue a man with gold ring, in gay raiment, and there may come in also a poor man in vile raiment,


* note the greek word sunagṓgē strongs 4864 translated assembly, synagogue, company, meeting

 

[OldRegular]

Fal,

I know people say this:

[Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier /QUOTE]

But where does the bible say....he took away the barrier?
Where does it say...he removed some obstacles?

What it does say ...is this---

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.[/QUOTE]
Them.....that are sanctified....Fal can you find a verse that says the whole world is sanctified?????




Fal......all would refuse the call.....except for election.....it is right there....the as you say[some just refuse] are the non elect.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

I know how to cut and paste:


* note the greek word sunagṓgē strongs 4864 translated assembly, synagogue, company, meeting

And your point is?

 

[OldRegular]

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


I say yes.

The Deliverer, Jesus Christ, came out of Sion 2000 years ago.

 

[freeatlast]

Fal,

I know people say this:

[Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier /QUOTE]

But where does the bible say....he took away the barrier?
Where does it say...he removed some obstacles?

What it does say ...is this---
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Tell me this. In the OT at on the day of attonement what did the sprinkling of the blood do (Leviticus 16:6-20)?

 

[freeatlast]

Fal,

I know people say this:

[Taking away the sin did not save anyone. It only removed the barrier /QUOTE]

But where does the bible say....he took away the barrier?
Where does it say...he removed some obstacles?

What it does say ...is this---

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.[/QUOTE]
Them.....that are sanctified....Fal can you find a verse that says the whole world is sanctified?????




Fal......all would refuse the call.....except for election.....it is right there....the as you say[some just refuse] are the non elect.

Let me ask you this. In the OT at on the day of attonement what did the sprinkling of the blood do (Leviticus 16:6-20)?

 

[OldRegular]

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Jesus Christ Died for the Church; Did he Die for the Nation Israel?

Getting back to the OP.

 

[freeatlast]

Getting back to the OP.

Romans 9:4-7
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises
Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

So yes He died for Israel, just not all Israel is of Israel.

 

[Iconoclast]

Fal,

I know people say this:


Tell me this. In the OT at on the day of attonement what did the sprinkling of the blood do (Leviticus 16:6-20)?

That which was typical did not accomplish what only the cross could"
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[thomas15]

And your point is?

Simple. You don't like the term "replacement theology" because it cannot hold up to Scripture and it makes Jehovah an indian giver so you try to say that the church always existed, that believers in pre-Acts ch 2 times were actually the church.

This doesn't work though because Jesus in Mat ch 16 speaks of His church in a future tense but since that doesn't work with your theology you try to make it sound like dispies teach that salvation prior to Acts ch 2 was granted to national Israel simply forgetting that the actual covenants in the Bible Abrahamic, Mosaic, New don't really talk much about eternal life for the individual believer.

Then comes James, a jewish NT writer and half brother of Jesus who admits that on the Lords day Christians in his ministry actually meet in a Jewish house of worship and not a PCUSA church building which I'm sure you find quite distrubing.

You also forget that the Scriptures of the early church were in 39 books of what we call today the Hebrew Scriptures. You don't know or don't care that the greek word for church is ekklēsı́a strongs 1577

 

[freeatlast]

That which was typical did not accomplish what only the cross could"
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yopu are not understanding the question. What was the picture of the Lev. passage?
Waht did the sprinkling do? Was it for all or just a few?

 

[Van]

Calvinists would say no, citing their replacement theology. However if we define "the nation of Israel" as all the individuals who obtained approval through faith, then of course Jesus died for them. The "church" is simply as assemble of believers, and if we define the nation of Israel as an assemble of believers our problem is solved. I think Paul pretty much explained this in Romans 11. Do you have another view?

Some suggested the church is not an assemble of believers. How about chosen believers. A holy or set apart nation. Or individual members of one body.

So if we define the nation of Israel as an assemble of chosen believers, to which Gentile believers are grafted on, then the church becomes descendents of Abraham, and thus part of the holy nation, Israel.

Romans 11:27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.

Thus the Deliverer from Zion, Jesus Christ, took away the sins of the holy nation, all Israel.

This is the view of progressive dispensationalism, but not the view of replacement theology, where the church replaced the nation. Do not be deceived.

 

[OldRegular]

Simple. You don't like the term "replacement theology" because it cannot hold up to Scripture and it makes Jehovah an indian giver so you try to say that the church always existed, that believers in pre-Acts ch 2 times were actually the church.

I really don't care whether "replacement theology" is Scriptural or not. I believe it to be a pejorative term invented by some dispensationalists and of course much of their theology is unscriptural!

Let me see now! You say:

so you try to say that the church always existed, that believers in pre-Acts ch 2 times were actually the church

As I recall the Apostles [at least 11] were pre-Acts ch. 2 believers! Is that correct? Were they a part of the Church or not? Or are they just in limbo? And then there were all those other believers, you know the Samaritan woman and those in her village, then there were all the women, the two sisters, Mary and Martha, Lazarus, the 500 that were witnesses of His resurrection [1 Corinthians 15:6]. They were all pre-Acts ch.2, were these part of the Church or in limbo like the eleven? Are you still with me?

This doesn't work though because Jesus in Mat ch 16 speaks of His church in a future tense but since that doesn't work with your theology you try to make it sound like dispies teach that salvation prior to Acts ch 2 was granted to national Israel simply forgetting that the actual covenants in the Bible Abrahamic, Mosaic, New don't really talk much about eternal life for the individual believer.

I have no idea what you are talking about much less why you would attribute it to me. It is a fact though that Jesus Christ did not say in Matthew that the Church was nonexistent at that time. Jesus Christ is still, still building His Church, does that mean He started yesterday?

Then comes James, a jewish NT writer and half brother of Jesus who admits that on the Lords day Christians in his ministry actually meet in a Jewish house of worship and not a PCUSA church building which I'm sure you find quite distrubing.

How did the liberal PCUSA get through the door?:laugh:

You also forget that the Scriptures of the early church were in 39 books of what we call today the Hebrew Scriptures. You don't know or don't care that the greek word for church is ekklēsı́a strongs 1577

You do have a problem! You are making nonsensical and unfounded accusations.