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Jesus Christ Died for the Church; Did he Die for the Nation Israel?

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Some suggested the church is not an assemble of believers. How about chosen believers. A holy or set apart nation. Or individual members of one body.

So if we define the nation of Israel as an assemble of chosen believers, to which Gentile believers are grafted on, then the church becomes descendents of Abraham, and thus part of the holy nation, Israel.

Romans 11:27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.

Thus the Deliverer from Zion, Jesus Christ, took away the sins of the holy nation, all Israel.

This is the view of progressive dispensationalism, but not the view of replacement theology, where the church replaced the nation. Do not be deceived.

There is a difference between national Israel and the "holy nation Israel". Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[Romans 9:6]

And one more time: I believe the term replacement theology is a pejorative used by some dispensational folks. But Augustine is said to have taught this so perhaps the folks on the Augustine thread can address this!
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Deliverer, Jesus Christ, came out of Sion 2000 years ago.


Yep, and Paul wrote this several years after his coming out of Sion.

And now Through him God is calling out a people for his name. The fulness of the Gentiles.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. -----Sion brought forth this man child--------
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ----- Presently Jesus is the only child Sion has given birth. The other children are born of Sion at his coming.
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. ---That takes place after the next appearing of the Lord. There is a reason Paul called the coming of the Lord the blessed hope.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. ---Those, "and in's," are those resurrected like Jesus was resurrected and are the same as the following from Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.----This is after the I will return. These are the children of Sion, resurrected like Jesus quickened, spiritual beings, children of God. Luke 20:26
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Christianity has totally negated the importance of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ and there is no reason for our resurrection at all except so we can feel good about ourselves by having a body.


JMHO
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Christianity has totally negated the importance of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ and there is no reason for our resurrection at all except so we can feel good about ourselves by having a body.


JMHO

This is off topic but I will give my beliefs!

I can't speak for all of Christianity but I can speak for myself! I am a firm believer in the resurrection of the body at the return of Jesus Christ.

Scripture tells us:

1 Corinthians 15:11-20
11. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Note in particular:

13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


That basically says it all. If there is no resurrection of the body, then Jesus Christ is not raised, and if Jesus Christ is not raised then we are all lost. Can't get any more clear than that! I would also note that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a bodily resurrection and Paul is speaking of the resurrection of the body.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
This is off topic but I will give my beliefs!

I can't speak for all of Christianity but I can speak for myself! I am a firm believer in the resurrection of the body at the return of Jesus Christ.

Scripture tells us:

1 Corinthians 15:11-20
11. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Note in particular:

13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


That basically says it all. If there is no resurrection of the body, then Jesus Christ is not raised, and if Jesus Christ is not raised then we are all lost. Can't get any more clear than that! I would also note that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a bodily resurrection and Paul is speaking of the resurrection of the body.

I agree!

Hope you are not disturbed that I have found some areas of agreement with you. :)
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Be careful about generalizations.

In Acts 20:28, Paul is referring specifically to the local congregation at Ephesus, not the "Church."

The is the same congregation for which Christ gave himself and loved in Ephesians 5:25.

We might be able to extrapolate the Universal Church out of those passages, if there were such a thing.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Be careful about generalizations.

In Acts 20:28, Paul is referring specifically to the local congregation at Ephesus, not the "Church."

The is the same congregation for which Christ gave himself and loved in Ephesians 5:25.

Surely you are not implying that Jesus Christ only loved and gave Himself for the Church at Ephesus!

We might be able to extrapolate the Universal Church out of those passages, if there were such a thing.

Sure there is. I believe we see it in Acts 20:28 but also in Revelation 21 & 22 and in Hebrews 12:22, 23!
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Surely you are not implying that Jesus Christ only loved and gave Himself for the Church at Ephesus!

No, not implying that. I'm saying that just as Jesus shed his blood for the believers in FBC Ephesus, he did the same for your local congregation and mine. The other point is that there is no such thing as the Universal Church.

Sure there is. I believe we see it in Acts 20:28 but also in Revelation 21 & 22 and in Hebrews 12:22, 23!

The church in Acts 20:28 is FBC Ephesus. The church in Rev 21-22 is the great General Assembly, the new Jerusalem, the Bride. Now THAT's the Church. Then, not now.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
No, not implying that. I'm saying that just as Jesus shed his blood for the believers in FBC Ephesus, he did the same for your local congregation and mine. The other point is that there is no such thing as the Universal Church.



The church in Acts 20:28 is FBC Ephesus. The church in Rev 21-22 is the great General Assembly, the new Jerusalem, the Bride. Now THAT's the Church. Then, not now.


That Church exists at the present time. You can't see it I can't see it but it is there, just not complete until the last of the elect is redeemed!

Tom I don't know that I would label any apostolic church the FBC! Well maybe that one at Laodicea!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Jesus Christ Died for the Church; Did he Die for the Nation Israel?

jesus death/resurrection allowed God to save into the Church ALL those whiom he had elected by His Will to receive jesus as messiah, also it is the means that he will use to fulfill his full promises to national isreal one day, as jesus returns to earth to usher in his messianic Kingdom, and to save all Isrealites still living at that time!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
jesus death/resurrection allowed God to save into the Church ALL those whiom he had elected by His Will to receive jesus as messiah, also it is the means that he will use to fulfill his full promises to national isreal one day, as jesus returns to earth to usher in his messianic Kingdom, and to save all Isrealites still living at that time!

No tell us what role the Church plays in the fulfillment of promises to national Israel!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No tell us what role the Church plays in the fulfillment of promises to national Israel!

Right now, the Lord is adding both jews/gentiles into the Church/body/bride of jesus...

When jesus returns, those jews still remaining will call upon yeshua and be saved...
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Isn't that gross speculation? How do you know that?

they will mourn for Him that they pierced, as if for an only Son...

In that day, a fountain of salvation be openned up in midst of jerusalem...

ALl of isreal at that time shall be saved...

have to discuss that with Apostle paul and the prophet Zechariah!
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
they will mourn for Him that they pierced, as if for an only Son...

In that day, a fountain of salvation be openned up in midst of jerusalem...

ALl of isreal at that time shall be saved...

have to discuss that with Apostle paul and the prophet Zechariah!

It would be helpful if you would identify any Scripture in the above post. I am sure you wish to give credit where credit is due!

I see you have added a sentence since my response. Paul had a lot to say and so did Zechariah.
 
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