What happened to the resurrected FLESHLY Body of Christ?

[Seve]

The fact that Paul denies the "spiritual" was "first" totally repudiates that Christ existed as the spiritual man in heaven before Adam in the garden but Paul says he came "AFTERWARD" or after Adam. This completely repudiates his whole view of Christology.

Perhaps, you missed your learning education I posted above.... see below for your convenience.

WRONG BIBLICIST. Again, why do you continue demonstrating to us your lack od wisdom and spiritual undertanding? Is this comes natural to you?

For your continued education....

Adam was just a NATURAL living soul to begin with and sinned BEFORE he was redeemed by the Lord by being created in the image and likeness of God.... or born again spiritually with a quickening spirit..... AFTER... they repented and call upon the name of the Lord.

In the day Adam and his generations were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 5:1), both A&E already committed their first sins. This actual event of creation took place after man began calling upon the name of the Lord (Gen. 4:26).

Genesis 5
3 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
4 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
.

:laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps, you missed your learning education I posted above.... see below for your convenience.




:laugh:

Bible states that Jesus is the Logos/Word of God the Father, who ALWAYS existed with God, and was Himself also God?

DO you hold to that?

 

[Seve]

Bible states that Jesus is the Logos/Word of God the Father, who ALWAYS existed with God, and was Himself also God?

DO you hold to that?

Of course, the Son is my God... my Lord and Saviour.... no one goes to the Father except thru him.

The Son was brought forth (begotten) into this world.... and physically existed even before our world was....

Thanks

 

[Revmitchell]

I am puzzled here by the concern and felt need for debate. So what if someone cannot tell the difference between a literal description of God and an Anthropomorphism. If he wants to believe the Bible says Jesus had hands in the OT where is the real issue here?

It is wrong and someone needs to learn about biblical literary genre but this issue does not effect any major doctrines. So what is the concern?

 

[The Biblicist]

WRONG BIBLICIST.
For your continued education....

Adam was just a NATURAL living soul to begin with and sinned BEFORE he was redeemed by the Lord by being created in the image and likeness of God.... or born again with a quickening spirit.

In the day Adam and his generations were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 5:1), both A&E already committed their first sins. This actual event of creation took place after man began calling upon the name of the Lord (Gen. 4:26).

Genesis 5
3 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
4 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

So you are attempting to make "first" and "last" refer exclusively to Adam in the garden and descriptive of his former and latter condition in regard to the fall into sin. Before he sinned he was a "living" soul but after he sinned and was redeemed he became a "living spirit."

That simply will not fly for a number of contextual reasons:

1. Only the first part of verse 45 is being quoted from Genesis 2:7. The latter part is not written anywhere in scripture concerning Eden's Adam. However, it will fittly describe Christ as Adam could only reproduce a fallen material offspring whereas the offspring of Christ are spiritual.

2. The previous verses are not contrasting Adam's previous condition before the fall with his condition after the fall but is contrasting the pre-ressurrection body with the post-resurrection body. - vv. 40-43

3. The context immediately following verse 47 continues to contrast the pre-resurrection body with the post resurrection body and it is Christ resurrection body that is the contrast rather than anything about Adam being the contrast (thus it is Christ all along that is being contrasted with Adam in verses 44-47).

4. The "first" and "second" designations in verse 47 have no other contextual reference points than "first" and "last" and "first" and "afterwards" in verses 44-46.

5. Verses 44-46 are by design intended to explain the differences between the pre- versus the post resurrection condition of the human body rather than the pre- versus the post spiritual state of Eden's Adam.

So your interpretation does not fit the context at all!

The true interpretation is as follows:

The sin condition of the pre-resurrection body is a result of the representation of mankind by Adam in Eden. The post-resurrection condition of the body is the result of the representation of Christ while on earth as the redeemer from sin.

This interpretation is confirmed by Paul's Conclusion to this argument:

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Thus verse 50 and the phrase "flesh and blood" decribes the CONDITION of man due to the fall of Adam or the "natural man".

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course, the Son is my God... my Lord and Saviour.... no one goes to the Father except thru him.

The Son was brought forth (begotten) into this world.... and physically existed even before our world was....

Thanks

Being a little deceptive are you not? Don't you also beleive that YHVH is Christ and was created by the Father as the visible God before the creation of the world??? Isn't that your point with Isa. 43:10 and the term "formed"?????

 

[The Biblicist]

I am puzzled here by the concern and felt need for debate. So what if someone cannot tell the difference between a literal description of God and an Anthropomorphism. If he wants to believe the Bible says Jesus had hands in the OT where is the real issue here?

It is wrong and someone needs to learn about biblical literary genre but this issue does not effect any major doctrines. So what is the concern?

The concern is that Seve is teaching that only Christ is referred to as YHVH (Tetragrammaton translated "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or upper case "LORD") and YHVH was "formed" (Isa. 43:10) by the Father before creation as the visible God of some people and he was formed as a human in as glorified body. This body is actually the resurrection body of Christ not the body that was placed in the grave. According to Seve it is this "glorified human body" that existed as YHVH in the Old Testament and there is no such thing as anthropormorphic language but it is LITERAL langauge.

 

[Revmitchell]

Of course, the Son is my God... my Lord and Saviour.... no one goes to the Father except thru him.

The Son was brought forth (begotten) into this world.... and physically existed even before our world was....

Thanks

Do you believe He has existed always and without time and a beginning? Or do you believe He was created by the Father?

 

[Revmitchell]

The concern is that Seve is teaching that only Christ is referred to as YHVH (Tetragrammaton translated "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or upper case "LORD") and YHVH was "formed" (Isa. 43:10) by the Father before creation as the visible God of some people and he was formed as a human in as glorified body.

If that is what he said that is problematic.

This body is actually the resurrection body of Christ not the body that was placed in the grave. According to Seve it is this "glorified human body" that existed as YHVH in the Old Testament and there is no such thing as anthropormorphic language but it is LITERAL langauge.

Ok that is weird and unorthodox but not an issue really.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok that is weird and unorthodox but not an issue really.

If the body that was placed in the grave is not his glorified body then he did not have victory over death and sin in his body and you have no hope of resurrection either and you are still in your sins. A pre-incarnation body was never subject to death and thus there is no hope for a resurrection for anyone as the resurrection pertains to our body not our soul.

 

[The Biblicist]

If that is what he said that is problematic.

There is no "if" about this. His exposition on Isaiah 43:10 and in particular the term "formed" makes this abundantly clear.

Here is his post:

In the Book of Isaiah 43, Our Lord YHVH, made the following declaration......

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Note: To be witnessed is to be physically seen or experienced.


In fact, the usage of the two negative words above (no & neither) actually resulted to a positive statement... He is the only God physically formed.... to be seen and witnessed.
.

In post #87 in the thread entitled "Whose Son is YHVH - the Christ"

In fact below are few more Scriptures to prove that the Son -- who already physically existed in the OT -- ONLY became the God of the whole earth, after his resurrection.... thou Lord in the beginning.... even though, the Son, was only serving as God to the Jews in the beginning and not to the gentiles.


From the same thread but post #11

My Conclusion: YHVH is not the Father but the Christ himself, the Son of God - the only God formed for us to see and witness... the great I AM of old.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no "if" about this. His exposition on Isaiah 43:10 and in particular the term "formed" makes this abundantly clear.

Here is his post:

In the Book of Isaiah 43, Our Lord YHVH, made the following declaration......

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Note: To be witnessed is to be physically seen or experienced.


In fact, the usage of the two negative words above (no & neither) actually resulted to a positive statement... He is the only God physically formed.... to be seen and witnessed.
.

In post #87 in the thread entitled "Whose Son is YHVH - the Christ"

In fact below are few more Scriptures to prove that the Son -- who already physically existed in the OT -- ONLY became the God of the whole earth, after his resurrection.... thou Lord in the beginning.... even though, the Son, was only serving as God to the Jews in the beginning and not to the gentiles.


From the same thread but post #11

My Conclusion: YHVH is not the Father but the Christ himself, the Son of God - the only God formed for us to see and witness... the great I AM of old.

Seve denies the resurrection of Christ and our resurrection becuase the term "resurrection" and "raised" have to do only with the body that went down into the ground.

Sever denies the atonement of Christ. If you deny the body that died is the body that is raised and glorified then you deny the atonement because there is no atonment where death is still the victor as Paul argues in 1 Cor. 15:13-19.

Seve denies the Biblical doctrine of God. He has the Father creating JHVH and thus denies that JHVH was from everlasting to everlasting. He denies the Godhead consists of Three Persons who share one divine substance that makes God to be God and who are co-eternal, co-equal (in regard to divinity) and immutable because he believes the Father created "formed" YHVH who had no previous existence to that formation by the Father.

 

[percho]

If the body that was placed in the grave is not his glorified body then he did not have victory over death and sin in his body and you have no hope of resurrection either and you are still in your sins. A pre-incarnation body was never subject to death and thus there is no hope for a resurrection for anyone as the resurrection pertains to our body not our soul.

Acts 2:29 Men brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both (1) dead and (2)
buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
V-31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that (1) his soul was not left in hell (Hades), neither (2) his flesh did see corruption. Both were resurrected from the dead.

If those verses do not say the soul of Jesus was resurrected from Hades, I will eat my hat.

The soul that sins it (the soul) shall die. and the LORD (God the Father of him, I would say.) hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all. God says again. "The soul that sins it shall die."

 

[The Biblicist]

Acts 2:29 Men brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both (1) dead and (2)
buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
V-31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that (1) his soul was not left in hell (Hades), neither (2) his flesh did see corruption. Both were resurrected from the dead.

If those verses do not say the soul of Jesus was resurrected from Hades, I will eat my hat.

The soul that sins it (the soul) shall die. and the LORD (God the Father of him, I would say.) hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all. God says again. "The soul that sins it shall die."

Let's not derail this thread. This thread is dealing specifically with the resurrection of his physical body in contrast to some idea that he assumed another body.

Where the soul of Christ went between death and resurrection is an entirely different subject. If you want to open a thread dealing with that, then be my guest.

In any resurrection, the human spirit/soul must be reunited with the body, but the emphasis of this context is that his body came out of the grave.

 

[The Biblicist]

Let's not derail this thread. This thread is dealing specifically with the resurrection of his physical body in contrast to some idea that he assumed another body.

Where the soul of Christ went between death and resurrection is an entirely different subject. If you want to open a thread dealing with that, then be my guest.

In any resurrection, the human spirit/soul must be reunited with the body, but the emphasis of this context is that his body came out of the grave.

Those who believe that the physical fleshly body of Christ is not the glorified body that was seen by the apostles rise into the heavens must explain where is that human body and what happened to it?

 

[annsni]

Those who believe that the physical fleshly body of Christ is not the glorified body that was seen by the apostles rise into the heavens must explain where is that human body and what happened to it?

It miraculously turned to dust in 3 days?? But then that would make the entire Bible a lie.....

 

[The Biblicist]

It miraculously turned to dust in 3 days?? But then that would make the entire Bible a lie.....

Yes. Here is the point many on this forum have not realized. The death of Christ was due to our sins. If that body remains under the power of death there is no atonement for anyone - period - and therefore there is NO HOPE of salvation from sin and death for anyone and we are false witnesses and still in our sins. This is precisely the line of argument by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:13-19

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

The denial of the resurrection of the PHYSICAL FLESHLY body of Jesus Christ is a complete denial of the atonement, of salvation, of the validity of who Christ claims to be and thus is a repudiation of the whole Bible and especially the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is the resurrection that justifies Christ as having conquered sin and death. It is the resurrection power that is the basis of our own power to live the Christian life as the Christian life is a struggle in overcoming consequences and effects of death in its process before it culminates in physical death. Without the resurrection of the physical fleshly body of Jesus Christ the Christian religion is a myth.

Thus those who attack and deny it are the worst of all heretics.

 

[percho]

Let's not derail this thread. This thread is dealing specifically with the resurrection of his physical body in contrast to some idea that he assumed another body.

Where the soul of Christ went between death and resurrection is an entirely different subject. If you want to open a thread dealing with that, then be my guest.

In any resurrection, the human spirit/soul must be reunited with the body, but the emphasis of this context is that his body came out of the grave.

I'm sorry. I was just responding to something in one of your post. I agree the body that was buried is the body that was raised. However it was raised with a different nature than of which it was buried. IMHO it was buried as a corruptible natural body yet did not see corruption and was raised a spiritual body no more to return to corruption or that which was subject to corruption.

1 Cor 15 and Acts 13.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes. Here is the point many on this forum have not realized. The death of Christ was due to our sins. If that body remains under the power of death there is no atonement for anyone - period - and therefore there is NO HOPE of salvation from sin and death for anyone and we are false witnesses and still in our sins. This is precisely the line of argument by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:13-19

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

The denial of the resurrection of the PHYSICAL FLESHLY body of Jesus Christ is a complete denial of the atonement, of salvation, of the validity of who Christ claims to be and thus is a repudiation of the whole Bible and especially the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is the resurrection that justifies Christ as having conquered sin and death. It is the resurrection power that is the basis of our own power to live the Christian life as the Christian life is a struggle in overcoming consequences and effects of death in its process before it culminates in physical death. Without the resurrection of the physical fleshly body of Jesus Christ the Christian religion is a myth.

Thus those who attack and deny it are the worst of all heretics.

The physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus is what separates Christianity from all other religions. For example, the Bahai faith says they believe in the resurrection of Jesus, but when you look closer you find that they mean a spiritual resurrection, not the physical, bodily resurrection.

 

[Seve]

Seve denies the resurrection of Christ and our resurrection becuase the term "resurrection" and "raised" have to do only with the body that went down into the ground.

Sever denies the atonement of Christ. If you deny the body that died is the body that is raised and glorified then you deny the atonement because there is no atonment where death is still the victor as Paul argues in 1 Cor. 15:13-19.

Dear Readers,

As I have posted before, no one here is denying that Christ did not have a body upon resurrection nor He did not have a fleshly body when he was incarnated into this world thru the womb of Mary. That's just another strawman' argument.

Obviously, this another malicious LIES Biblicist is trying to spread.... to cover up his blatant distortion of facts and deception. Of course these malicious accusations are only based on his made up stories of my edited quotes.

Look and read my complete quotes taken from the most recently closed thread (without any reason given) that they are obviously trying to hide from you all.

..... God is one (echad) in unity.... NOT... in number.

in fact, the Father and the Son are both separate entities, therefore, both are collective ONE God (Echad) in unity.

John17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Based on the Scripture above.... accordingly....

....The Father has his ownself Being....

.... the Son has his ownself Being as well...... even before the world was.... even before he was sent into this world and became flesh.

My Conclusion: YHVH is not the Father but the Christ himself, the Son of God - the only God formed for us to see and witness... the great I AM of old.

Once again Biblicist is caught from his own big mouth piece, spreading malicious lies.... :laugh:

Seve denies the Biblical doctrine of God. He has the Father creating JHVH and thus denies that JHVH was from everlasting to everlasting. He denies the Godhead consists of Three Persons who share one divine substance that makes God to be God and who are co-eternal, co-equal (in regard to divinity) and immutable because he believes the Father created "formed" YHVH who had no previous existence to that formation by the Father.

Tsk...tsk...tsk..... this is another blatant malicious lies by Biblicist.... aim only to distort / convolute my position of the matter to support his character assassination of other Christians who do not agree with his biblical assumption and stupidity.

See below my unedited complete quotes in question..

Isahiah 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

Dear Readers,

Jesus is YHVH himself -- the Son of the invisible God. He is the Physical Image of the invisible Almighty God Father, the Spirit of Love…. which NO man hath seen at anytime nor his name have been revealed to anyone at this time.

Of course, contrary to Biblicist flawed understanding of the Scripture….. YHVH of old, the Son of God, is correct to claim that there’s no other God besides him… as shown above cited Scriptures - simply because, technically.... the Son is our God.… from the beginning; from everlasting .... as also documented and revealed in the New Testament below….

Insertions are mine for presentation:

1Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ (the Son of God); and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God (his own Father).

The invisible God is fully manifested in His only Begotten Son -- the FIRST BORN of every creature. Therefore, in reality, the Son is our God, our own Father, as far as we are concerned -- THY MAKER -- the head of every man.

Jesus Name in the OT is listed in Gen 2:4 (Heb-Adonai YHWH). He is called LORD God by the King James translators. He is the God of the Jews, and the ONLY God ever FORMED, Physically. If you have seen Him….. you have seen the Father.

When God spoke the "WORD" in the beginning and said, LET THERE BE LIGHT, YHVH, the Son, came forth from the invisible Spirit of Love into this Physical World and became the Only God ever Physically formed or that ever will be Physically formed for us to see.

He was Not Created, since He was already God himself (John 1:1). The Son was the source of the True Light (physical) in the beginning, ref. Gen. 1:3 (ALPHA), just as He will be the literal Light of Heaven in the end (OMEGA), which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it.

Without the Son (YHVH), was Not anything made that was made, because Everything Physical was made by the Physical Hands of the Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten, of the Spirit of the invisible Almighty God Father.

When we get to Heaven, we will truly understand that the Son is YHVH himself, our God, for In Him dwelleth ALL of the fullness of the Godhead, Bodily (physically).

One thing Biblicist is right on the money is..... I am denying their traditional view of "Trinity" doctrine which is only based on the wild imaginations of their forefathers.... not supported by the Scripture.

Here's my view of the Truine of our God..... God is ONE (echad) collectively in unity not in number.... The Father , the Son and the Holy Ghost.....