PUBLIC THANK YOU...and a challenge!

[awaken]

No, they are "sign gifts," the sign of an apostle.
They were only used by some in the ministry during the first century when revelation was not complete, when that which is perfect or complete (was not yet come) which is the Word of God, then that which is in part (tongues, prophecy, revelatory knowledge) was done away. It was not needed any longer. By the time the last apostle died (John) at the end of the first century, the canon of Scripture was complete (made perfect), and those revelatory gifts were not needed any more--the ones mentioned in 1Cor.13:.

If Paul had mentioned the completed New Testament somewhere in the same context as the word "perfection," then this would strengthen the argument that the word "perfection" refers to the completed New Testament. However, Paul did not mention the New Testament at all in the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10. Paul never said anything about that.
For example, every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. He always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in e completed New Testament in the entire book of 1 Corinthians. In fact, Paul never mentioned a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures in any of his letters!

1 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Corinthians 7:8, 10:9-11, Colossians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:14, 17. Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." In fact, after Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament" (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106). This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

Tongues was a language, an actual language, a foreign language that others in a foreign nation would understand. The proper application of this in today's culture would be that those who would have the gift would not have to study a foreign language in order to be a missionary to a foreign nation. But that doesn't happen. It did happen to Paul--many times.
He said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all."

1. It was an actual foreign language. "How hear we every man in our own language."
2. It was given as a means of revelation before the NT was complete.
3. It was given as a sign to the apostles that the apostles were genuine messengers of God, and that their message was genuine. (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4)
4. It was given as a sign to the Jews. (1Cor.12:21,22)

They were temporary and ceased at the end of the first century.
Can you give any evidence that Biblical tongues is being spoken today. Remember it is a gift, a spiritual gift. There would be evidence today if some had this gift today.

You do not describe the tongues in the Bible...it is a language! But not a learned language!

 

[awaken]

God does open minds- but he does it through Scripture.

There is absolutely no scriptural reason to think that tongues continued past the age of the apostles just like there is no Scriptural reason to believe that God still engraves messages in stone tablets.

Unique forms of revelation are for specific people at specific times until the message is recorded and assimilated in the Scriptures.

That's the way it was for the entire Old Testament and there is absolutely no logical reason to think that it would be any different in the new.

Especially since God has OBVIOUSLY NOT been doing this tongues thing for well over a thousand years.

And it is silly to think that all of the sudden these pentecostals that popped up in the first decade of the last century are right and about 1800 years of Christians before them were all wrong.

Tongues DID cease. That is the SINGLE BEST argument for tongues ceasing- they DID.

This is not a topic we should even have to discuss. The church knew this before the Enlightenment and Darwinism and the church fled from intellectualism to stupidity because it was afraid that it could no longer stand in the intellectual arena.

When we became feelers instead of thinkers this weird crud and tons of other crud like it flooded our religious culture.

When the church returns to her moorings as a thinking people, what people call tongues today will go away.

I will continue debating this when you show me scriptures to back up your opinions!

 

[awaken]

Paul's use of the word "perfection" is rather vague, but he elaborated on this statement with three illustrations, all of which deal with our maturity as believers. Not one of these illustrations has any bearing on the completed New Testament.

Paul's first illustration is in 1 Corinthians 13:11, which immediately follows his use of the word "perfection":

"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." (1 Corinthians 13:10-11)

Paul's illustration speaks of maturity, but notice that he was not talking about the maturity of the New Testament. He was talking about our maturity as believers, which will finally be "perfected" or "completed" when we are transformed at the return of Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, and 1 John 3:2 above, for example).

Since Paul used a description of spiritual maturity to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

Here's the next illustration that Paul used to describe "perfection" (which immediately follows the previous illustration):

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

The exact same Greek phrase ("see face to face") is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament for seeing God face to face (Genesis 32:30), and the apostle John confirms for us that we will see God as He is (face to face) after Jesus returns for us and "perfects" our bodies at His coming (1 John 3:2).

Paul explained his statement about "perfection" by saying that "we shall see face to face," and we can see that it has nothing to do with the completion of the New Testament. Instead, it refers to our being transformed and taken into heaven when Jesus comes for us. Since Paul used this illustration to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

Paul's final illustration in 1 Corinthians 13:12 puts the whole issue to rest:
"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

This does not describe the completion of the New Testament, because the New Testament was completed almost two thousand years ago and yet we still do not "know fully, even as [we are] fully known." Having a complete New Testament has not caused us to have a full, complete knowledge of God nor has it caused us to individually become "fully known" to one another.

Scholars say that Paul was martyred in 64 or 68 A.D., but there are several books of the New Testament which scholars believe were written after Paul died: Hebrews in 68 or 69 A.D., Jude somewhere between 67 A.D. and 80 A.D., the Gospel of John somewhere between 85 A.D. and 95 A.D., and Revelation, which many scholars agree was written in 95 or 96 A.D. In addition, the first formal list of New Testament books was not compiled until roughly 75 years after Paul's death (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106), and the New Testament was not actually completed in its final form for another 250 years or so after that (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.205).

Paul said, "when perfection comes...then I shall know fully" (1 Corinthians 13:12, above). Some people believe that this "perfection" refers to the completion of the New Testament, but Paul did not live to see the completion of the New Testament. Paul's use of the word "perfection" cannot be a reference to the completed New Testament because that would contradict his statement that he himself would "know fully" when perfection comes.

 

[Luke2427]

I will continue debating this when you show me scriptures to back up your opinions!

No.

I have them. This is not my first rodeo.

But the impetus is on you to provide Scripture that explains WHY ON EARTH God would continue tongues when he has ceased EVERY OTHER FORM OF UNIQUE REVELATION HE EVER INSTITUTED BEFORE TONGUES.

You just want to talk about I Corinthians 13 because you think you are loaded for bear on that text.

That text is not, BY FAR, the best argument the cessationist has.

Don't tell me the God who CEASED writing on tablets of stone and the God who CEASED taking on the forms of Angels to communicate and the God who CEASED speaking with thunderous voices from the heavens and the God who CEASED speaking from burning bushes...

Don't tell me ALL of the sudden he STOPPED CEASING to speak in unique ways once the revelation was recorded in the Scriptures and assimilated.

We don't have to prove to you that God CEASES to speak in unique ways once the revelation is recorded and assimilated in the Scriptures. THE WHOLE BIBLE SHOWS THAT!!!

You have to show in the Scripture that tongues should be expected to continue.

You can't.

They shouldn't.

What you practice and what you have experienced is likely a bunch of emotional, sensational nonsense.

God has given us the New Testament. We don't need tongues any more than, since he has given us the Old Testament, we need tablets of stone.

 

[awaken]

No.

I have them. This is not my first rodeo.

But the impetus is on you to provide Scripture that explains WHY ON EARTH God would continue tongues when he has ceased EVERY OTHER FORM OF UNIQUE REVELATION HE EVER INSTITUTED BEFORE TONGUES.

You just want to talk about I Corinthians 13 because you think you are loaded for bear on that text.

That text is not, BY FAR, the best argument the cessationist has.

Don't tell me the God who CEASED writing on tablets of stone and the God who CEASED taking on the forms of Angels to communicate and the God who CEASED speaking with thunderous voices from the heavens and the God who CEASED speaking from burning bushes...

Don't tell me ALL of the sudden he STOPPED CEASING to speak in unique ways once the revelation was recorded in the Scriptures and assimilated.

We don't have to prove to you that God CEASES to speak in unique ways once the revelation is recorded and assimilated in the Scriptures. THE WHOLE BIBLE SHOWS THAT!!!

You have to show in the Scripture that tongues should be expected to continue.

You can't.

They shouldn't.

What you practice and what you have experienced is likely a bunch of emotional, sensational nonsense.

God has given us the New Testament. We don't need tongues any more than, since he has given us the Old Testament, we need tablets of stone.

Just curious if knowledge ceased too?

 

[Luke2427]

Just curious if knowledge ceased too?

The gift of knowledge where you come to know things you have not studied or heard absolutely has.

God gives wisdom through HIS WORD. Now that we have his Word we don't need supernatural impartation of information without study.

 

[awaken]

The gift of knowledge where you come to know things you have not studied or heard absolutely has.

God gives wisdom through HIS WORD. Now that we have his Word we don't need supernatural impartation of information without study.

There are three words related to how we receive the Scriptures: inspiration, revelation, and illumination. Maybe you would like to study and look those up!

 

[Luke2427]

There are three words related to how we receive the Scriptures: inspiration, revelation, and illumination. Maybe you would like to study and look those up!

So you think we are still receiving the SCRIPTURES????

 

[awaken]

So you think we are still receiving the SCRIPTURES????

Did I say that? NO!
Let me give you one..."All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable..." (2 Tim. 3:16)
Inspiriation (theopniustos) theo-God...pneo-to breathe...God breathed upon the prophets to write the Scriptures.

Revelation is a word meaning to unveil something that is hid. This happen when they penned it onto parchment the exact words God spoke, and it became the written word.

Illumination by which WE receive the light or the insight in our spirit of what has been written. It takes illumination to understand what is written.

We still need the Holy Spirit even in understanding the Word!

 

[Luke2427]

Did I say that? NO!
Let me give you one..."All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable..." (2 Tim. 3:16)
Inspiriation (theopniustos) theo-God...pneo-to breathe...God breathed upon the prophets to write the Scriptures.

Revelation is a word meaning to unveil something that is hid. This happen when they penned it onto parchment the exact words God spoke, and it became the written word.

Illumination by which WE receive the light or the insight in our spirit of what has been written. It takes illumination to understand what is written.

We still need the Holy Spirit even in understanding the Word!

We need the Holy Spirit- yes. But what we DON'T have is new words besides those in SCripture coming to us by way of mindless jibber jabber.

 

[awaken]

We need the Holy Spirit- yes. But what we DON'T have is new words besides those in SCripture coming to us by way of mindless jibber jabber.

So you are saying the the Spirit does not speak to your spirit about anything?

 

[Luke2427]

So you are saying the the Spirit does not speak to your spirit about anything?

The Holy Spirit does speak to me- EXACTLY the way that Jesus said he would. Jesus said that the Comforter who he would send would "bring to your remembrance the things that I have told you..." The things I have told you. That's the word of God.

Now, a question for you.

Do you think the Spirit of God says things to you that are not recorded in the Word of God?

Because, if you do, this is TREMENDOUSLY problematic.

 

[DHK]

You do not describe the tongues in the Bible...it is a language! But not a learned language!

Acts 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? ASV

Biblical tongues were actual known and learned languages; learned and known to the ones listening, but not learned and know by the ones speaking. That is why, on the Day of Pentecost, those from about 13 different nations could exclaim: "How hear we every man in our OWN LANGUAGE wherein we were born?" They were actual known languages. That list of nations that they came from is given in Acts 1.

Thus my question to you is:
First, why do those, especially Charismatics, who claim to speak in tongues, have to send their missionaries to language school before they send them to the foreign mission field. Kind of ironic isn't it?

I am a missionary. Why didn't God give me this gift? I had to learn some other languages. God just didn't give them to me. It would have been nice if he did, but he doesn't work that way any longer.

Third, give me an example of this gift in operation today. How has this gift? What people are miraculously being given languages so that they can communicate the gospel to those of other languages without studying the language before time. Please provide hard evidence.

 

[awaken]

The Holy Spirit does speak to me- EXACTLY the way that Jesus said he would. Jesus said that the Comforter who he would send would "bring to your remembrance the things that I have told you..." The things I have told you. That's the word of God.

Now, a question for you.

Do you think the Spirit of God says things to you that are not recorded in the Word of God?

Because, if you do, this is TREMENDOUSLY problematic.

So you are saying that you ask God to help you on a personal level.
Do I marry this girl? Do I take this job? Do I move to this city? Do I take this church? He does not speak to your spirit?

 

[awaken]

Acts 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? ASV

Biblical tongues were actual known and learned languages; learned and known to the ones listening, but not learned and know by the ones speaking. That is why, on the Day of Pentecost, those from about 13 different nations could exclaim: "How hear we every man in our OWN LANGUAGE wherein we were born?" They were actual known languages. That list of nations that they came from is given in Acts 1.

Please read my post! I have NEVER said that tongues were not a language!

Thus my question to you is:
First, why do those, especially Charismatics, who claim to speak in tongues, have to send their missionaries to language school before they send them to the foreign mission field. Kind of ironic isn't it?

Because the purpose of tongues was never for preaching the gospel. Those speaking at Pentecost were not speaking to the people, they were speaking to God magnifying God!

I am a missionary. Why didn't God give me this gift? I had to learn some other languages. God just didn't give them to me. It would have been nice if he did, but he doesn't work that way any longer.

Tongues never worked the way we as Baptish have been taught. But it is real! Just because some abuse it or fake it does not mean that the Holy Spirit was taken away! His gifts are without repentance.

Third, give me an example of this gift in operation today. How has this gift? What people are miraculously being given languages so that they can communicate the gospel to those of other languages without studying the language before time. Please provide hard evidence.

Again, if you study and pray yourself..search it out as I have. You will find that tongues are not to communicate the gospel.

 

[12strings]

These are ministry gifts! And no, not all are called into the ministry!

So then you agree that no all need speak in tongues?

 

[12strings]

So you are saying that you ask God to help you on a personal level.
Do I marry this girl? Do I take this job? Do I move to this city? Do I take this church? He does not speak to your spirit?

In such situations, yes, we pray for guidance, and I understand that one of two things MIGHT happen:

1. God might make the answer so plain to me that I am sure that's what he wants me to do...OR...

2. He might not, he might leave me with his All-sufficient Word, and the wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit, and the intellegence he gave me; and simply let me choose. If after prayer and consideration, I am not making the decision for sinful reasons, there is no reason to fear I am making the wrong one.

Just like I don't pray to God to help me decide which shirt to wear each morning, or what to eat for breakfast...Usually God lets us choose these things guided by biblical principles (modesty, non-gluttony).

When I first told my fiance (now wife of 5 years) that I loved her, I said that "I have decided to love you." She said that gave her great comfort, since she understood love was not a mushy feeling. When I came to my current church (5 years ago), I chose it over another church without hearing a special word from God, but based much on my evaluating the perceived godliness and passion for God in the leadership.

If I were to lose my job, and still believed I was called to ministry...but my family need food, I would go out and mow lawns, or put on roofs, or work at McD's...whether or not I heard a special word from God...since he has already told me that work is good, and providing for my family is good.

 

[awaken]

So then you agree that no all need speak in tongues?

I believe that all can "pray in the spirit" and Paul calls that tongues in Cor. 14.

But not all are called to give a message in tongues and interpret in a congregation. Or at least I have!

 

[awaken]

In such situations, yes, we pray for guidance, and I understand that one of two things MIGHT happen:

1. God might make the answer so plain to me that I am sure that's what he wants me to do...OR...

2. He might not, he might leave me with his All-sufficient Word, and the wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit, and the intellegence he gave me; and simply let me choose. If after prayer and consideration, I am not making the decision for sinful reasons, there is no reason to fear I am making the wrong one.

Just like I don't pray to God to help me decide which shirt to wear each morning, or what to eat for breakfast...Usually God lets us choose these things guided by biblical principles (modesty, non-gluttony).

When I first told my fiance (now wife of 5 years) that I loved her, I said that "I have decided to love you." She said that gave her great comfort, since she understood love was not a mushy feeling. When I came to my current church (5 years ago), I chose it over another church without hearing a special word from God, but based much on my evaluating the perceived godliness and passion for God in the leadership.

If I were to lose my job, and still believed I was called to ministry...but my family need food, I would go out and mow lawns, or put on roofs, or work at McD's...whether or not I heard a special word from God...since he has already told me that work is good, and providing for my family is good.

Well, I will leave you with this! But there is more to experience with God on a personal level.

 

[convicted1]

Well, I will leave you with this! But there is more to experience with God on a personal level.

I mean this with no ill will, but this is the charasmatic "cat call". It's like they are on a whole other level of spirituality than us baptists. It's akin to the "holier than thou" mentality.