Antichrist reigning !

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You are ignoring the context because Romans 5:12-19

No you are ignoring a clear Truth in that context Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

One is made Righteous soley by the Obedience of One ! No matter how you try to deny it !

 

[savedbymercy]

The elect were made sinners before God by Adam's act of disobedience before they were born under the personal application of it or before they became subjective sinners personally and experientially. In like manner the Elect were made Righteous before God by Christ's Act of Obedience before they are born again under the personal application of it or before they became Righteous Personally or experientially ! Thats what Rom 5:19 teaches, and so all the rest of the passage must be understood in the same fashion to avoid contradiction of a clear teaching, thats biblical hermeneutics !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



No you are ignoring a clear Truth in that context Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

One is made Righteous soley by the Obedience of One ! No matter how you try to deny it !

You pick one (Rom. 5:19) and pit it against the other (Rom. 5:11,17). I accept both. Your position cannot harmonize with both and so that forces you to PIT one against the other.

When you have to reduce yourself to PITTING one text against another text your interpretation is necessarily wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

The elect were made sinners before God by Adam's act of disobedience before they were born under the personal application of it or before they became subjective sinners personally and experientially.

The elect were made objectively and legally sinners in regard to ONE INDIVISIBLE CORPORATE nature in one man. However, subjective individual depravity and condemnation for sin did not occur until personal and individual generation.

At judgment we never read that we will be judged "according to Adam's sin" but only and always "according to our works." Why? Because objective legal condemnation is not the basis for condemnation at the judgement seat but rather the basis for eternal condemnation is subjective individual personal sin.

Likewise, with Christ and the elect. The elect were made objectively legally righteous in regard to one indivisible corporate nature in one man. However, subjective individual righteousness and justification from sin did not occur until personal and individual justification by re-generative faith. Hence, what was provided CORPORATELY through representation by Christ must be "received" INDIVIDUALLY by regenerative faith (Rom. 5:11). Until it is "received" that INDIVIDUAL is under the wrath of God "EVEN AS OTHERS" even though CORPORATE justification has been obtained for the elect. CORPORATE justification must be individualized to remove the indivdual out from under his INDIVIDUAL condemnation through natural generation which was a result of CORPORATE condemnation.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You pick one (Rom. 5:19) and pit it against the other (Rom. 5:11,17).

Its not against it, you just reject the Truth of it. But its not going nowhere. Those whom Christ died for are made Righteous solely by His Death apart from from any application work of the Holy Spirit which causes their obedience ! We know Paul is not concerned with their obedience at this point because his point is the act of only One and its consequence ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You deny this, you deny the Gospel that Paul Preached here, which makes this True of you Gal 1:8-9

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Also I have taught what Rom 5:17 means here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75092

 

[The Biblicist]

Those whom Christ died for are made Righteous solely by His Death apart from from any application work of the Holy Spirit [/url]

That is like saying paint was bought for this house and the house is painted regardless if it is actually applied to the house or not.

That is like saying the blood was shed at the base of the brazen altar for the sin of Israel and they are redeemed whether that blood is actually applied to them or not.

That is like saying God purposed them to be glorified and they are glorified whether it is applied to them or not.

The Objective design (Purpose) must be implemented in obtaining the objective provision (blood) as well as finalizing in the subjective application or the whole is flawed and nonsensical and oxymoronic as a Purpose that is already fullfilled or a redemption that does not actually redeem.

which causes their obedience!

The Holy Spirits work is the INSTRUMENTAL CAUSE of regeneration and justification and these are not acts of obedience on the part of the elect but changes of CONDITION and POSITION which the elect are PASSIVE.

 

[Revmitchell]

Are you inferring or implying that all who oppose your view of ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION are of the Anti-Christ?

Yep! He infers similar unbiblical garbage all the time.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

That is like saying paint was bought for this house and the house is painted regardless if it is actually applied to the house or not.

All that natural reasoning will not change the Truth. Those who Christ died for are made Righteous by that one act of obedience Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Christ's Blood was applied by Him to God's Law and Justice ! See when Christ died, He was acting as Our High Priest, and as the type, on the day of Atonement would take the Blood behind the Veil into the Holy of Holies to apply before and upon the mercy, so Christ the AntiType took His Blood before the mercy Seat of God and it appeased God's Wrath against those the High Priest Represented. Heb 9:24

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Christ the High Priest offered His Blood and Applied it to God's Law and Justice, Just as the Type use to apply the blood of animals.

The People had no part in this, they did not have to accept the Work of the Hight Priest, the Work of the High Priest did not need to be personally applied to them in order for God to be appeased , pacified, or propitiated.

The Success of the Work depended solely upon the High Priest and God. If God did accept the Work of the High Priest and he came back out from behind the curtains without dying by the Judgment of God, then all knew God was pacified for that Year.

So your application work of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the Work of the offering of the High Priest that satisfied God's Wrath against the people !

So you deny the work of Christ, no other way to put it. See ya at the Judgment !

Also,because of the success of this High Priest Work, the Elect are reconciled into the Favor of God, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers ! So that in and of itself lets us no that the Application of The Spirit has not taken place yet ! And yet they are reconciled to God !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



All that natural reasoning will not change the Truth. Those who Christ died for are made Righteous by that one act of obedience Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, we are made righteous by the obedience of one man THROUGH application to our own person and not apart from it.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Yes, we are made righteous by the obedience of one man THROUGH application to our own person and not apart from it.

Thats not what it says or means. Because at the Application of the Holy Spirit, that brings about our obedience 1 Pet 1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Then you contradict the plain teaching of the Gospel where Paul taught we were made Righteous by the Obedience of One ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

At your current pace you are denying this Truth, not a good sign of being a God called teacher !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Thats not what it says or means

That is exactly what it means!

. Because at the Application of the Holy Spirit, that brings about our obedience 1 Pet 1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This verse is talking about progressive sanctification. However, the Holy Spirit CHANGES our nature (regeneration) and our legal position (Justification) and so his work of application cannot be limited to our obedience unless you believe regeneration is due to your obedience????? If not, then you are telling a HALF-truth which is a WHOLE lie.

 

[savedbymercy]

The bib

That is exactly what it means!

No it doesnt. The Elect are Righteous while they are being enemies, for they are Reconciled to God while they are enemies. Now, the Reconciled never had any sin imputed to their Charge if we understand 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Non Imputation of Sin and Reconciliation go hand and hand !

 

[The Biblicist]

The bib


Non Imputation of Sin and Reconciliation go hand and hand !

That is correct and Paul demands that sin was not imputed to Abraham "IN uncircumcision" Rom. 4:10 - not before he was born and not FUTURE at the cross.

Furthermore, "in uncircumcision" refers to the precise point when he was justified by faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8) still in Ur of the Chaldees "WHEN" he was "ungodly" (Rom. 4:5) and as "enemies" with God (Rom. 5:10) he "received" reconciliation (Rom. 5:10).

Romanss 5:10 clearly and explicitly repudiates your intepretation of the precise time sin was "not imputed" to Abraham. It was not imputed "when" he was "IN UNCIRCUMCISION" just as Romans 5:10 demands all the elect are reconciled/non-imputation of sin "WHILE" they are "enemies" rather than at the cross because Paul is speaking of the exact precise time when they "received" the atonement/reconciliation (Rom. 5:11; Rom. 4:10).

 

[The Biblicist]

That is correct and Paul demands that sin was not imputed to Abraham "IN uncircumcision" Rom. 4:10 - not before he was born and not FUTURE at the cross.

Furthermore, "in uncircumcision" refers to the precise point when he was justified by faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8) still in Ur of the Chaldees "WHEN" he was "ungodly" (Rom. 4:5) and as "enemies" with God (Rom. 5:10) he "received" reconciliation (Rom. 5:10).

Romanss 5:10 clearly and explicitly repudiates your intepretation of the precise time sin was "not imputed" to Abraham. It was not imputed "when" he was "IN UNCIRCUMCISION" just as Romans 5:10 demands all the elect are reconciled/non-imputation of sin "WHILE" they are "enemies" rather than at the cross because Paul is speaking of the exact precise time when they "received" the atonement/reconciliation (Rom. 5:11; Rom. 4:10).

I believe the elect were regenerated, justified, sanctified, saved, and glorified according to God's PURPOSE before the world began by design only and not by application.

I believe Christ obtained their salvation (regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification) by the PROVISION of his own blood which satisfied the LEGAL BASIS but did not obtain application to the person of the elect.

I believe the elect were "ungodly" and "enemies" and "lost" WHEN Christ reconciled them on the basis of his cross AT THE POINT of Holy Spirit application of regeneration and justification when they RECEIVED it (Rom. 4:5-10; 5:10-11).

What I do not believe is that elect obtained APPLIED salvation before the world began or on the cross.

What I do not believe is that the application work of the Holy Spirit MERELY obtained obedience of the elect but CHANGED their condition and position prior to any active obedience by the elect. That CHANGE demands they were "enemies" and "ungodly" and "lost" at the POINT when they were changed.

1. WHEN Abraham received justified BY FAITH he was "ungodly" and he was justified "IN UNCIRCUMCISION" at the point of justification by faith (Rom. 4:5-10).

2. WHEN the elect received reconciliation (Rom. 5:11) they were "enemies" - Rom. 5:10 (otherwise no need for reconcilitition) but "being reconciled" they are no more enemies.

3. WHEN God reconciled the elect to Himself in Christ it was by LEGAL PROVISION preordained to be applied THROUGH the work of the Holy Spirit and the instrumental "ministry of reconciliation" so that Paul could say "Be ye reconciled to God" as there was no actual legal application of reconciliation yet except by provision.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

That is correct and Paul demands that sin was not imputed to Abraham "IN uncircumcision" Rom. 4:10 - not before he was born and not FUTURE at the cross.

Thats a rabbit trail. Sin was not imputed to a whole world of People 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Nobody born into the said world is born condemned for any sin they begin to committ upon physical birth, that goes for Abraham and anyone else Christ died for ! From the beginning of the World until now !

 

[savedbymercy]

Non Imputation in 2 Cor 5:19

the bib



Thats a rabbit trail. Sin was not imputed to a whole world of People 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Nobody born into the said world is born condemned for any sin they begin to commit upon physical birth, that goes for Abraham and anyone else Christ died for ! From the beginning of the World until now !

Even though I'm convinced that non imputation of sin preached in 2 Cor 5:19 was that of the Terms of the Everlasting Covenant Established before the World began and at which time Christ was confirmed as the Surety of the Covenant Heb 7:22 or Testament, yet for the opposer's of this great Gospel Truth, lets say that 2 Cor 5:19 is referring to the Cross at its actual time in Human History in or around 33 ad, then it would stand for reason that the Non Imputation described here is the one and same with the imputing of sins unto Christ, in order for Him to die for them 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that being the case, for who can deny that Christ had to have had their sins imputed to Him, in order for Him to die for them ! Then at least no one Christ died for since 33 ad can be born in their sins, yes they can be born sinners, but they are born sinners that do not have the legal guilt and condemnation of breaking God's Law against them, and they are born sinners already reconciled to God by THE DEATH OF HIS SON !

Because it was His Death that satisfied God's Law and Justice for them against every transgression they will ever commit against it, God's Law. So, legally they are born Justified and Reconciled sinners In God's Sight !

 

[DHK]

yes they can be born sinners, but they are born sinners that do not have the legal guilt and condemnation of breaking God's Law against them, and they are born sinners already reconciled to God by THE DEATH OF HIS SON !

This is a denial of the Total Depravity of man.

 

[savedbymercy]

This is a denial of the Total Depravity of man.

You are lying on me again. I have never denied that, I stated clearly they are born sinners. What you think that is , if not depraved ? Is that the only way you can debate and refute what I state is by blatant lying ?

Here is my statement you lied about,misreperesnted, which is the same as lying

Then at least no one Christ died for since 33 ad can be born in their sins, yes they can be born sinners, but they are born sinners that do not have the legal guilt and condemnation of breaking God's Law against them, and they are born sinners already reconciled to God by THE DEATH OF HIS SON !

 

[DHK]

You are lying on me again. I have never denied that, I stated clearly they are born sinners. What you think that is , if not depraved ? Is that the only way you can debate and refute what I state is by blatant lying ?

Here is my statement you lied about,misreperesnted, which is the same as lying

First of all calm down. Stop with the accusations. That is how you earn infractions. I did not lie. I stated my opinion. The last time I checked this nation still has freedom of speech where we are legally able to express our own thoughts--at least within the bounds of the law and the rules of this board.

I did not lie; I expressed my opinion which I will do again.

When you say out of one side of your mouth a person is born a sinner, but at the same time you say out of the other side of your mouth that that same person is born sinners already reconciled to God by THE DEATH OF HIS SON !

It is an apparent contradiction.
The conclusion is that you don't believe in Total Depravity.
The child is born already reconciled to God. If he is already reconciled to God, then how can he be totally depraved, so depraved that he cannot seek God (as the Calvinist would define total depravity) ?

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

First of all calm down. Stop with the accusations

You need to calm down and stop with the accusations !

That is how you earn infractions. I did not lie. I stated my opinion.

And it was a lie in my opinion, for I never stated that those Chtidt died for are not born depraved, in fact I stated they are born sinners, and stated something entirely different, just because you are a mod you feel you can bully me, and frighten me with infractions, well go ahead give me a fraction, put me off the board if you like, but you are a bold face liar !

When you say out of one side of your mouth a person is born a sinner, but at the same time you say out of the other side of your mouth that that same person is born sinners already reconciled to God by THE DEATH OF HIS SON !

Thats what the scripture says, Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.