What is regeneration or new birth?

[The Biblicist]

I have always thought of John's call to repentance and baptism was a sort of precursor to Christ and the Gospel. Sort of making straight the Way, leveling obstacles etc etc...

John preached the gospel of Jesus Christ as plainly stated by John in John 3:36 and repentance and faith was in regard to that gospel.

He refused to baptize those who did not have "fruits of repentance" (Mt. 3:8) and thus regeneration previous to baptism. It was called the "baptism of repentance" because he required the "fruits of repentance" as the prerequisite for baptism in addition to faith in Christ (Jn. 3:36) even before he knew that Jesus of Nazereth was the "Christ" (Jn. 1:29,31).

To suggest that Christ submitted to something other than "Christ-ian" baptism is absurd. The only baptism in existence when He gave the Great Commission to administer baptism to "them" who received the gospel was John's baptism. Jesus himself not merely submitted to it but administered it through his own disicples (Jn. 4:1-2; Lk. 7:30).

There is no record of any of the Apostles being rebaptized.

Rejection of John's baptism as "Christian" baptism is confirming the rejection of it by the scribes and Pharisees and thus making the "counsel of God" faulty counsel that even God would soon reject and require a make over (Lk. 7:29-30).

 

[David Michael Harris]

It's a study I guess. Try to get passed it The Apostles were with Christ not John. John's followers had only known John's ways, Jesus is the Way though. It complicated I admit. Actually it's a great study area, thanks. I still miss the importance of the post though. With regards to the Gospel.

 

[The Biblicist]

It's a study I guess. Try to get passed it The Apostles were with Christ not John. John's followers had only known John's ways, Jesus is the Way though. It complicated I admit. Actually it's a great study area, thanks. I still miss the importance of the post though. With regards to the Gospel.

Johns work was "to prepare a people made ready for the Lord" (Lk. 1:17) and it is from this prepared people that Jesus took and formed into his New Testament congregation at Jerusalem (Acts 2:21-22). Also this prepared people provided the Church at Jerusalem the materials to institute churches immediately all over Judea and Samaria (Acts 9:31).

John and Jesus preached the same way (Jn. 3:16 compared to Jn. 3;36) administered the same baptism (Lk. 7:29-30).

 

[David Michael Harris]

How many were Johns disciples saved amongst the thousands Saved on pentecost?

And 3 thousand souls were added.. etd etc Amazing study I agree.

 

[The Biblicist]

How many were Johns disciples saved amongst the thousands Saved on pentecost?

And 3 thousand souls were added.. etd etc Amazing study I agree.

Pentecost is one of the Jewish feast that required all Jewish males to be present in Jerusalem. Thus the Jewish males dispersed all over the Roman Empire (Acts 2:7-11) were convened and it is from this group the 3,000 were saved.

In contrast, both John and Jesus worked among the Jews in Judea and Galilee in their ministries. Notice that the 3,000 were "ADDED" unto them (Acts 2:40) or that necleous of 120 convened in Acts 1:15 who had been regularly assemblying with Christ from the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22).

Hence, those baptized on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:40) newly received the gospel and were added unto those who were already baptized beleivers prior to Pentecost. Thus those, pre-Pentecost beleivers had embrace the same gospel (Jn. 3:16, 36) preached by John the baptist and Jesus and had received the baptism of John (Lk. 7:29-30). Indeed, the only baptism known and submitted to previous to Pentecost was the baptism of John (Jn. 4:1-2, Lk. 7:29-30) and thus is the only baptism that could be referred to and commanded in the Great Commisson (Mt. 28:19). Acts 2:40-41 is the administration of that Great Commission and thus the baptism of the 3,000 was the baptism that God ordained by His counsel and gave to John (Lk. 7:29-30) and which Jesus and all the apostles had submitted to.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Cut through the chase and get to the point.

 

[The Biblicist]

Cut through the chase and get to the point.

You asked about what Paul says on this matter.

Paul used the term "regeneration" ONCE and that is in Tit. 3:5. If you deny "regeneration" in Titus 3:5 refers to the new birth then there is no evidence that "regeneration" and "new birth" are synonyms in Paul's mind because there is no other place in scripture the term "regeneration" is used where the context can be shown that it refers to the new birth.

If you separate "washing of regeneration" from "renewing of the Holy Ghost" in Titus 3:5 and make them refer to two separate works by two separate Persons of the Godhead then again "regeneration" cannot refer to the "new birth."

My argument is that "washing of regeneration AND renewing of the Holy Ghost" are two aspects by the Holy Spirit in regeneration. Washing removes the guilt and defilement of sin whereas "renewing" replaces it with the righteousness and holiness or moral "image" of God that was lost due to the fall of man. The negative "washing" removes sin's damage while "renewing" replaces that damage by what was lost - moral likeness to God - the image of God. Both are essential to regeneration/new birth. This can be seen in Ephesians 2:1-3. Quickening in verse 1 reverses the damages of sin in verses 2-3. This can be seen in Ephesians 4:18 where the damages of sin are described but are addressed in regeneration (Eph. 4:24).

 

[percho]

No, the resurrection is not what Titus 3:5 refers to any more than Matthew 19:28 is what Titus 3:5 refers to.

The Age to come (Mt. 19:28) is a CHANGED world as much as the resurrection to come obtains a CHANGED body.

Regeneration is change in the spirit of man wrought by the Holy Spirit - John 3:6

What about the rest of my post?

Was Jesus receiving from the Father or to say another way The Father giving to Jesus, the promise of the Holy Spirit which appears to take place before the shedding forth thereof, be construed in any manner a renewing of the Holy Spirit as in Titus 3:5 which also appears to precede a shedding forth thereof?

 

[The Biblicist]

What about the rest of my post?

Was Jesus receiving from the Father or to say another way The Father giving to Jesus, the promise of the Holy Spirit which appears to take place before the shedding forth thereof, be construed in any manner a renewing of the Holy Spirit as in Titus 3:5 which also appears to precede a shedding forth thereof?

The promise of the Spirit covers a large area. It covers the special power and work of the office of apostle. It covers the public accreditation of the new house of God on Pentecost as a historical completed act. It covers the gospel outreach of gentiles and their salvation. The promise of the Spirit covers all that is included in a new dispensation by a new public administration of the everlasting covenant.

In regard to Titus 3:5 the promise of the Spirit includes the regenerating work of the Gentiles in addition to the former regenerating work of the Spirit primarily restricted among the Jews (Jn. 3:3-5). It simply explains the negative and positive aspect of the new birth in all of God's children by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1. Negatively the new birth removes the defilement of sin from the conscience (Heb. 9:14) and is thus a metaphorical "WASHING" by the word of the gospel.

2. Positively there is the renewing of the image of God by the creative regenerative work of the Holy Spirit or the establishment of a new nature that is righteous and holy - Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10. The image of God is what is renewed because it was marred in the fall when we fell from inward holiness and righteousness into sin.

Because of this "washing" the guilt of sin is removed and peace is the consequence and because of this "renewing" of the image of God true holiness and righteousness, the child of God can be "put on" in the Christian life and our minds can be daily "renewed" after this regenerative "image" of God established by regeneration within us called the "new man" or the "inward man" that delights after the law of God because it is holy and righteous as is the Law of God. Regeneration is synonymous with being born again or becoming a child of God.

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ Now in His Glory Ruling !

Jesus Christ present spiritual reign or rule according to 1 Pet 3:22

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

This s also a powerful verse against the false teaching of mans freewill !

The word authorities is the greek word exousia and means:


power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

Everyones power of choice have been made subject to Him ! The word subject is the greek word hypotassō:


to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject


Have been arranged under Him to obedience !

Also Eph 1:22

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

The Lord Jesus Christ upon His final Ascension, He took possession of His Spiritual Kingdom, which is the Church 1 Cor 15:24

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

And He presently rules over all in Heaven ad Earth Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In Hell,m all men and angels, an devils are all in subjection to Him, to serve His purpose and interest at His Sovereign Command, all of which are obedient to His Purposes !

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus Christ present spiritual reign or rule according to 1 Pet 3:22

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

This s also a powerful verse against the false teaching of mans freewill !

The word authorities is the greek word exousia and means:


power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

Everyones power of choice have been made subject to Him ! The word subject is the greek word hypotassō:


to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject


Have been arranged under Him to obedience !

Also Eph 1:22

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

The Lord Jesus Christ upon His final Ascension, He took possession of His Spiritual Kingdom, which is the Church 1 Cor 15:24

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

And He presently rules over all in Heaven ad Earth Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In Hell,m all men and angels, an devils are all in subjection to Him, to serve His purpose and interest at His Sovereign Command, all of which are obedient to His Purposes !

You are simply pitting ONE TRUTH against ANOTHER TRUTH. What you have said above has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19:28 as Matthew 25:31 demonstrates clearly and nothing of what you have said applies to Titus 3:5.

The time that he "sits upon the throne of his glory" is at his second coming (Mt. 25:31) and that is precisely what Matthew 19:28 refers to.

 

[billwald]

Until 70 AD the "Christian" congregations came under the special "Jewish" political rules because Rome thought we were a Jewish sect. Christians continued to be welcome in synagogues until the Bar Kochba rebellion when Christians were excommunicated for refusing to fight against Rome. "Real" Christians were pacifists until "Real" Christians were pacifists until Constantine took control of the Church around 315 AD.

A BIG persecution followed and the Church went underground. Meetings were held in secret. No one was told about meetings until the new person was vetted as trustworthy. Unbaptized new people were not permitted to remain for communion.

In this century, the Truest "Christian" church is probably the underground church in China. In the US, the "tight" Plymouth Brethern still operate under 250 AD rules.



"Real" Christians were pacifists until

 

[The Biblicist]

Until 70 AD the "Christian" congregations came under the special "Jewish" political rules because Rome thought we were a Jewish sect. Christians continued to be welcome in synagogues until the Bar Kochba rebellion when Christians were excommunicated for refusing to fight against Rome. "Real" Christians were pacifists until "Real" Christians were pacifists until Constantine took control of the Church around 315 AD.

A BIG persecution followed and the Church went underground. Meetings were held in secret. No one was told about meetings until the new person was vetted as trustworthy. Unbaptized new people were not permitted to remain for communion.

In this century, the Truest "Christian" church is probably the underground church in China. In the US, the "tight" Plymouth Brethern still operate under 250 AD rules.


"Real" Christians were pacifists until

What has this got to do with the OP? You and SBM are attempting to derail the OP and that is against the rules of this forum. Go start your own thread if you want to talk about another subject. This thread is about the meaning of new birth/regeneration.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus Christ present spiritual reign or rule according to 1 Pet 3:22

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

This s also a powerful verse against the false teaching of mans freewill !

The word authorities is the greek word exousia and means:


power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

Everyones power of choice have been made subject to Him ! The word subject is the greek word hypotassō:


to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject


Have been arranged under Him to obedience !

Also Eph 1:22

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

The Lord Jesus Christ upon His final Ascension, He took possession of His Spiritual Kingdom, which is the Church 1 Cor 15:24

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

And He presently rules over all in Heaven ad Earth Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In Hell,m all men and angels, an devils are all in subjection to Him, to serve His purpose and interest at His Sovereign Command, all of which are obedient to His Purposes !

Stop attempting to derail this thread. This thread deals with the new birth not eschatology. If you want to talk about eschatology go start your own thread.

 

[billwald]

Is is an explanation of "You are simply pitting ONE TRUTH against ANOTHER TRUTH. What you have said above has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19:28 as Matthew 25:31 demonstrates clearly and nothing of what you have said applies to Titus 3:5."

If the NT was a complete and logical text then it would be consistent and teach ONE TRUTH. In fact, the text teaches several competing "truths."

 

[The Biblicist]

Is is an explanation of "You are simply pitting ONE TRUTH against ANOTHER TRUTH. What you have said above has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19:28 as Matthew 25:31 demonstrates clearly and nothing of what you have said applies to Titus 3:5."

If the NT was a complete and logical text then it would be consistent and teach ONE TRUTH. In fact, the text teaches several competing "truths."

As long as you believe God is the author of confusion you will continue in your confusion.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Generation of Christ has a time to be born !



Matt 1:1

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus Christ had a generation as did Adam Gen 5:1


This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Jesus has a seed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

His seed and His generation are the same Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation

So as Adam had a generation, so also did Christ, and as men were in Adam's generation, by the decree and purpose of God, were born at God's appointed time physically, so are men, that are of Christ's generation are born again at God's appointed time and decree.

For instance, God had appointed a time in His decree of purpose when Noah would be born physically into this world, as he [Noah] was part of the generation of Adam Gen 5:28-29

28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:

29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.

Noah was born at the exact time that God's Purpose had set, Ecclesiastes 3:1-2

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Noah's time of birth in God's Purpose was not a day early or late, Noah was purposed in the generation of Adam, and so it is with the generation of Christ, Isa 53:10; Ps 22:30, for each member of that generation has a decreed time, according to God's Purpose to be born again of incorruptible seed, to be begotten again 1 Pet 1:3, according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ 2 Tim 1:9 ! Paul is an example of this timing according to God's Purpose 1 Cor 15:8

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul's New Birth was according to a Divine Time table as to when Paul would commence his apostleship for the cause of Christ.

Now when Noah was born of Lamech, it was an evidence that Noah was part of the generation of Adam that God Created in Adam Gen 5:1ff; and everyone who mis begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, it is evidence they were part of that generation of Christ Ps 22:30; 1 Pet 2:9

 

[Yeshua1]

Is is an explanation of "You are simply pitting ONE TRUTH against ANOTHER TRUTH. What you have said above has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19:28 as Matthew 25:31 demonstrates clearly and nothing of what you have said applies to Titus 3:5."

If the NT was a complete and logical text then it would be consistent and teach ONE TRUTH. In fact, the text teaches several competing "truths."

Such as?

the SAME author gave us all 66 books, and the Holy Spirit NEVER contridicts Himself!

 

[percho]

The promise of the Spirit covers a large area. It covers the special power and work of the office of apostle. It covers the public accreditation of the new house of God on Pentecost as a historical completed act. It covers the gospel outreach of gentiles and their salvation. The promise of the Spirit covers all that is included in a new dispensation by a new public administration of the everlasting covenant.

In regard to Titus 3:5 the promise of the Spirit includes the regenerating work of the Gentiles in addition to the former regenerating work of the Spirit primarily restricted among the Jews (Jn. 3:3-5). It simply explains the negative and positive aspect of the new birth in all of God's children by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1. Negatively the new birth removes the defilement of sin from the conscience (Heb. 9:14) and is thus a metaphorical "WASHING" by the word of the gospel.

2. Positively there is the renewing of the image of God by the creative regenerative work of the Holy Spirit or the establishment of a new nature that is righteous and holy - Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10. The image of God is what is renewed because it was marred in the fall when we fell from inward holiness and righteousness into sin.

Because of this "washing" the guilt of sin is removed and peace is the consequence and because of this "renewing" of the image of God true holiness and righteousness, the child of God can be "put on" in the Christian life and our minds can be daily "renewed" after this regenerative "image" of God established by regeneration within us called the "new man" or the "inward man" that delights after the law of God because it is holy and righteous as is the Law of God. Regeneration is synonymous with being born again or becoming a child of God.

Renewing of the Holy Spirit is obviously related to regeneration in Titus 3:5.

My question is; Did Jesus have, before it was given to him, the promise of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:33? Did Jesus actually have to receive this promise from the Father before the Holy Spirit could be shed, or is that also, "metaphorical" ? As in Titus 3:5 the renewing of the Holy Spirit being related to regeneration, in Acts 2:33 is Jesus having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit related to the Father having raised Jesus from the dead in verse 32?

I say regeneration is speaking of the same thing in Titus and Matthew.

Matt. 20:23 Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: > Is speaking of his death and resurrection is it not?

Would you say the context of that verse would be the true, "Baptismal regeneration,"?

DBY Matt, 19;28 And Jesus said to them, Verily I say unto you, That *ye* who have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit down upon his throne of glory, *ye* also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Doesn't moving the comma following me above to following regeneration allow this verse to say the exact same thing as Matt. 20:23 above which ends with:
but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father. That is speaking of sitting on his right and left is his kingdom that is the throne of his glory. The time of the regeneration, the resurrection. Compare Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name,
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

According to your concept of regeneration are we presently conformed to the image spoken of in Romans 8:29 or are we more like this, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:

According to my concept of regeneration that is we following Jesus in regeneration, baptized as he was baptized, see all of Rom 6. Will we not at that time be conformed to the image of his Son because, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. ?

 

[The Biblicist]

The Generation of Christ has a time to be born !



Matt 1:1

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus Christ had a generation as did Adam Gen 5:1


This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Jesus has a seed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

His seed and His generation are the same Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation

So as Adam had a generation, so also did Christ, and as men were in Adam's generation, by the decree and purpose of God, were born at God's appointed time physically, so are men, that are of Christ's generation are born again at God's appointed time and decree.

For instance, God had appointed a time in His decree of purpose when Noah would be born physically into this world, as he [Noah] was part of the generation of Adam Gen 5:28-29

28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:

29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.

Noah was born at the exact time that God's Purpose had set, Ecclesiastes 3:1-2

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Noah's time of birth in God's Purpose was not a day early or late, Noah was purposed in the generation of Adam, and so it is with the generation of Christ, Isa 53:10; Ps 22:30, for each member of that generation has a decreed time, according to God's Purpose to be born again of incorruptible seed, to be begotten again 1 Pet 1:3, according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ 2 Tim 1:9 ! Paul is an example of this timing according to God's Purpose 1 Cor 15:8

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul's New Birth was according to a Divine Time table as to when Paul would commence his apostleship for the cause of Christ.

Now when Noah was born of Lamech, it was an evidence that Noah was part of the generation of Adam that God Created in Adam Gen 5:1ff; and everyone who mis begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, it is evidence they were part of that generation of Christ Ps 22:30; 1 Pet 2:9

Again you are attempting to derail the thread as the OP has nothing to do with natural generation but with new birth and regeneration. Get off the thread or deal with the OP