What are churches for?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The HS has put it on me to erect a true orthodox Salvation by Grace Baptist church in my community but your right, I get discouraged by the "LACK" ....lack of interest, lack of Love for the Lord, Lack of godly people. I am in a desert & I believe the devil is winning. I was set to join a non denominational church that I thought had roots in Baptist distinctive's till I talked to two of the foundational elders. They were not very excited about being Baptistic, they indicated that the board of foundational elders took a vote to either be Credo Baptist or Paedo Baptist....and the Credos won, 4 to 3. So well here we are, immersion Baptistic folks. When I heard that I saw that they were not happy about being baptist. Prior to that I stood in the lobby after the service & a midsts all the congregating people, nobody came up to me to welcome me to the church. I told the pastor that & he indicated I would have to come more often so that people could warm up to me.

I have also had enough people on this board criticize me for being too difficult in finding a church to fellowship in. Thats correct, I was a Roman Catholic for 32 years & I hated it.....it was so ritualistic & devoid of scripture as well as so many things I can discuss that I disagree with but I staid there because I was raised up there & my mothers family were all RC. My wife insisted on marrying in a Presbyterian Church so we did & we took my son there because we thought it was the right thing to do. But it became extremely liberal & apostate so we decided not to attend. I drifted to a Congregational Church that was a mess & finally l felt the need for fellowship so I found a Orthodox Presby Church where the head Elder told me my dead infant son was in hell & my wife & I put him there.....nice! That killed my wife....that hurt her to the core of her very being & I had long discussions with the Pastor of the Church, another OPC Pastor & a Reformed Pastor in another town....they all tried to convince me that the Elder spoke out of turn however not one of these guys could give me or my wife assurance our son was with God.

I did not go to church for a long time after that....they were my enemies & they also caused my wife to take to drinking, she was soooo hurt. My brother, who became a Fundi Baptist Youth Pastor sat me down & blamed my experience with these Reformed types on Covenant Theology & told (assured) me that Baptists dont think that way. OK so I spoke to a few Baptist pastors (Arminian & Reformed ) & they all confirmed my brothers story.....so I went to an arminian church down the road. I got no spirituality out of them....nothing....like an empty shell & though I went to weekly services I was wasting my time. Even went to a Saturday morning mens study bible. NOTHING.

So I quit there. My wife will not step in any church & it took her years to get over the pain of those friggin Hyper-Calvinists.

My brother gave me series of CD's called Classics of Christian Faith because Id gone back to college for advanced courses & was driving an hour each way....he thought the windshield time could best be used & in November 3 yrs ago I listened to George Whitefield's sermon "The Method Of Grace" This I believe the Holy Spirit used to convict me of my "Sin of Unbelief" & from that day forward I thanked the Lord for showing me my errors. He made me ashamed to have called myself a Christian when I sinned & insulted Jesus Christ.

Ive told the Lord many times that a church needs to be located in my void community but I keep hitting brick walls. I have a wonderful friend in Kentucky who is my mentor & pastor but I am not meeting with other Christians & sharing my Love for God.....and thats what is missing. This Sunday I wil go to a Lutheran Church several miles away because Ive checked them out & they are orthodox but do not believe in a systematic Doctrines of Grace theology. Im doing that as an attempt for fellowship but I know they will also not satisfy my hunger for a true orthodox Baptist Church that is DoG. Thats whats needed in this community.

 

[TCassidy]

That concludes my question. :flower:

My nephew pastors a church in Austin, Texas. Here is what he said this morning on his Facebook page:

Pastors are not on the job to 'Save America'. We are here to announce its eventual demise and replacement with something that is already here and growing ever more powerful in this world every day - the Kingdom of God. Capitalism and Socialism are just labels for power centers that will fall. The flags of men will be folded up before the unfurled banners of Christ the King. That's what Pastor's announce. Christian Faith is not an exercise for weekend warriors. If anyone expects their Pastors to simply affirm them in their marginalizing of reality, all in the name of the so-called real and relevant, they either have the right Pastor for their pipe dream, or they are quietly being served by someone who actually loves them as he patiently subverts their false hope. There. You've been warned.

He went on to say, regarding eschatology,

Eschatology is not simply a study of what happens at end; it is entry into the mysterious invasion and conquest of the present by the future. Eschatology is about now.

Those are both pretty good summations.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My nephew pastors a church in Austin, Texas. Here is what he said this morning on his Facebook page:

He went on to say, regarding eschatology, Those are both pretty good summations.

Sounds real radical....who's paying attention?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do agree with this Texas pastor on Fakebook about Christianity being a full time commitment & life changing but Gina has made so very good comments. I would ask these pastors what word of hope do they have to offer the millions who no longer see meaning in their life? What word of hope have they for all the women who bear children and day after day, say in their drudgery, What is the meaning of life? What word of hope do these pastors have for the millions thrown out of work & cant pay their bills, loose their homes & their self worth. Or those who have no medical insurance because of the high cost...you get my drift.

For all the pastors who make church a weekend event, God is not calling you in your heads, yet you have lived in your heads for so long, that the world no longer listens to you. Truly dont need your words without your example... if you sermonize without getting out there nobody is going to pay attention to you.

So I wouldn't put the onus completely on the weekend Christians....there are enough bad pastors that treat church as their own orchestrated business so quit making it all about a gathering place on Wednesday & Sunday, with your lazy church service & go out there & touch the flesh of God thru his people ... be an example & be visible....let them know you do indeed love them by both word & deed. They will believe love, they will believe life given & received. They will want to cooperate because you showed them something nobody does today. You showed evidence by your words, actions & faith that Christ is there in the streets caring about them.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The last few posts, by Oldtimer, Gina, TCassidy, and EWF have been excellent! Very moving, very true.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The HS has put it on me to erect a true orthodox Salvation by Grace Baptist church in my community but your right, I get discouraged by the "LACK" ....lack of interest, lack of Love for the Lord, Lack of godly people. I am in a desert & I believe the devil is winning. I was set to join a non denominational church that I thought had roots in Baptist distinctive's till I talked to two of the foundational elders. They were not very excited about being Baptistic, they indicated that the board of foundational elders took a vote to either be Credo Baptist or Paedo Baptist....and the Credos won, 4 to 3. So well here we are, immersion Baptistic folks. When I heard that I saw that they were not happy about being baptist. Prior to that I stood in the lobby after the service & a midsts all the congregating people, nobody came up to me to welcome me to the church. I told the pastor that & he indicated I would have to come more often so that people could warm up to me.

I have also had enough people on this board criticize me for being too difficult in finding a church to fellowship in. Thats correct, I was a Roman Catholic for 32 years & I hated it.....it was so ritualistic & devoid of scripture as well as so many things I can discuss that I disagree with but I staid there because I was raised up there & my mothers family were all RC. My wife insisted on marrying in a Presbyterian Church so we did & we took my son there because we thought it was the right thing to do. But it became extremely liberal & apostate so we decided not to attend. I drifted to a Congregational Church that was a mess & finally l felt the need for fellowship so I found a Orthodox Presby Church where the head Elder told me my dead infant son was in hell & my wife & I put him there.....nice! That killed my wife....that hurt her to the core of her very being & I had long discussions with the Pastor of the Church, another OPC Pastor & a Reformed Pastor in another town....they all tried to convince me that the Elder spoke out of turn however not one of these guys could give me or my wife assurance our son was with God.

I did not go to church for a long time after that....they were my enemies & they also caused my wife to take to drinking, she was soooo hurt. My brother, who became a Fundi Baptist Youth Pastor sat me down & blamed my experience with these Reformed types on Covenant Theology & told (assured) me that Baptists dont think that way. OK so I spoke to a few Baptist pastors (Arminian & Reformed ) & they all confirmed my brothers story.....so I went to an arminian church down the road. I got no spirituality out of them....nothing....like an empty shell & though I went to weekly services I was wasting my time. Even went to a Saturday morning mens study bible. NOTHING.

So I quit there. My wife will not step in any church & it took her years to get over the pain of those friggin Hyper-Calvinists.

My brother gave me series of CD's called Classics of Christian Faith because Id gone back to college for advanced courses & was driving an hour each way....he thought the windshield time could best be used & in November 3 yrs ago I listened to George Whitefield's sermon "The Method Of Grace" This I believe the Holy Spirit used to convict me of my "Sin of Unbelief" & from that day forward I thanked the Lord for showing me my errors. He made me ashamed to have called myself a Christian when I sinned & insulted Jesus Christ.

Ive told the Lord many times that a church needs to be located in my void community but I keep hitting brick walls. I have a wonderful friend in Kentucky who is my mentor & pastor but I am not meeting with other Christians & sharing my Love for God.....and thats what is missing. This Sunday I wil go to a Lutheran Church several miles away because Ive checked them out & they are orthodox but do not believe in a systematic Doctrines of Grace theology. Im doing that as an attempt for fellowship but I know they will also not satisfy my hunger for a true orthodox Baptist Church that is DoG. Thats whats needed in this community.

George Whitefield -- good ol' Calvinistic Methodist!

EWF, I really feel for you. I pray God will help you get what you need and where you belong.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

George Whitefield -- good ol' Calvinistic Methodist!

EWF, I really feel for you. I pray God will help you get what you need and where you belong.

Wow, you actually know what a Calvinistic Methodist is.....too bad they are not around anymore......maybe some down South in the backwaters im thinkin.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Wow, you actually know what a Calvinistic Methodist is.....too bad they are not around anymore......maybe some down South in the backwaters im thinkin.

Their differences in theology caused a rift between Whitefield and Wesley, but later in life they reconciled.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Their differences in theology caused a rift between Whitefield and Wesley, but later in life they reconciled.

Yes I know....my fathers family were all mostly Welsh Methodist (with some pastors thrown in for good measure) ...funny he relinquished me to the Roman Catholics on my mothers side & I should come to Christ through a Calvinist Methodist....in fact, he pretty much started it. Lloyd-Jones tells some beautiful stories about them & their revivals & the singing. I would have loved being a part of that with William Williams as the Welsh Bard......must have glorious!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJCxt2DjZK0

 

[saturneptune]

SN...please define local. Do you mean one that is in your community? What if the closest Local Church isnt really local....they are 40 miles away, in 4 towns away....seriously, I dont consider them local....they have no stake in the community where I live.....not even in the same county.

My opinion a local church is not so much of geography, but a local autonomus of like faith and order that uses the Bible to define their New Testement Church. The local church in this sense carries out the work of the Lord. The universal church never supported a missionary, had an outreach program, preached the Gospel. helped the poor, prayed, studies Scripture, never administered the two ordinances, and never collected an offering.

There is nothing wrong with churches working together. Denominations with a hierarchy have taken authority away from the local church and have transferred it to high level church leaders that have very little to do with carrying out the Great Commission. I think the denomination that comes closest to Baptist, and it is different, is conservative Presbyterians.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My opinion a local church is not so much of geography, but a local autonomus of like faith and order that uses the Bible to define their New Testement Church. The local church in this sense carries out the work of the Lord. The universal church never supported a missionary, had an outreach program, preached the Gospel. helped the poor, prayed, studies Scripture, never administered the two ordinances, and never collected an offering.

There is nothing wrong with churches working together. Denominations with a hierarchy have taken authority away from the local church and have transferred it to high level church leaders that have very little to do with carrying out the Great Commission. I think the denomination that comes closest to Baptist, and it is different, is conservative Presbyterians.

Then there is no local church in my community, no presence of one....nada

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Then there is no local church in my community, no presence of one....nada

EWF, maybe I missed this somewhere, but how far would you have to drive to find a church like you're looking for?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, maybe I missed this somewhere, but how far would you have to drive to find a church like you're looking for?

An hour....I clocked it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But thats the point Michael....it should be in the community.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

But thats the point Michael....it should be in the community.

But what if it's not?

And since it is not, in your case, do you think it would be worth it to drive that far?

I must say I have faced a similar situation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But what if it's not?

And since it is not, in your case, do you think it would be worth it to drive that far?

NO, church is about community & my community isnt an hrs drive away. some 20 years ago now I went to a presby church maybe about 8 miles away. My mom was very sick at the time & was still dealing with my CP sister who was also sick & in need of help. There was a group at the church that got together & took care of some peoples needs in the community like home maintenance etc

So I asked them if they could help mom out ....here is what they told me, No because she isnt a member of the community (and I was a member of the church at the time).

Besides my community is in desperate need of a church that truly does go out to their neighbors....brings them Christ, brings them love & brings them hope.

Lastly how would I be a good steward of a church & cant get to it regularly because of NY/NJ traffic & also the inconvenience. Noooo, church needs to be local, least in my eyes.

Why is SBC so big in the south & why is the RCC so big in the North......one big reason is accessibility. I have at least 1 RCC in each town in Northern NJ & depending on the community, maybe 2 & 3 Churches. You need to make your presence felt & you need to walk & talk with these people.

As a boy, I fondly remember Father John walking to my house, knocking on the door & coming in for a cup of coffee. How you folks doing, are you OK, how is Christ working in your life? Monsenior Belean helping us out with food, counseling my mom, helping us financially to get through school & pay our bills. And this was done with each RC family in the parish.....he even helped at Christmas & when the car died he offered to give us his own. This is what I mean by a community church. And if it has to start with my wife & I and then, with the help of God grow, so be it.

Last story, we neighborhood kids would play hoops on the street with a plywood backboard cut & a hoop mounted. Father G (long Italian name) comes by & stops the car & starts watchin us. Then he lets out a loud yell, "You Guys Stink!" LOL. Then he proceeds to teach us the proper way for a lay up ....yada yada. FOND MEMORIES!!!


My plan then, I start one & go to other places in the region till I do get it off the ground. With Gods help of course & hopefully your prayers.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Thanks, OT

I don't mind sharing with you. It's now a part of my testimony.

I was saved as a teenager in a small country church in another demonination. A few years later, better half and I married. Different demonination and another small rural church. For a while we attended each others churches, but gradually drifted away.

In my case, I didn't have a strong desire to continue to attend my home church. Nor, to attend better half's either. While different demoninations, there was too much that was alike in each of them. I won't go into a lot of details other than to say, after all these years, I still vividly remember the fight over the carpet go down the center isle in my church. Voices lifted in anger, in God's house, between those who wanted RED carpet and those who didn't. Remember overhearing ladies talking behind their gloved hands about those who couldn't dress for success. A deacon candidate, nominated by someone who didn't know, humilated in front of the congregation, because he was divorced and remarried some 25 or 30 years earlier. There's more, but I've probably already said too much.

For a while, we tried some other churches, but didn't find a home. Looking back, I know now, part of it was because I wasn't seriously looking for one. After all those years of rising with the sun, on the farm, it sure felt good to sleep late on Sunday morning. Perhaps to watch the worship services on TV broadcast from a church too many miles away to travel. Perhaps, not.

Eventually, we stopped going to church all together. Periodically, I'd read the Bible. Sometimes I'd pray. Sometimes enjoyed listening to worship services on the radio. By then, I wouldn't watch "TV preachers", after seeing their impact on my mother's life.

This story is getting too long. To make it shorter, many years went by. God sent a messenger. A neighbor invited us to his church, a Baptist church. We didn't go. God sent His messenger again. This time, I listened. There was more to be heard than simply the words of my neighbor.

That was about 2 1/2 years ago. We joined the church after a few months and I was rebaptised, by imersion this time. Without a shadow of a doubt, I believe that God grew tired of waiting for us. We are now where He wants us to be today.

Hearing the struggles of others helps keeps things in perspective in my life. Not that I am glad for what you went through, just that you were willing to share.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

But what if it's not?

And since it is not, in your case, do you think it would be worth it to drive that far?

NO, church is about community & my community isnt an hrs drive away. some 20 years ago now I went to a presby church maybe about 8 miles away. My mom was very sick at the time & was still dealing with my CP sister who was also sick & in need of help. There was a group at the church that got together & took care of some peoples needs in the community like home maintenance etc

So I asked them if they could help mom out ....here is what they told me, No because she isnt a member of the community (and I was a member of the church at the time).

Besides my community is in desperate need of a church that truly does go out to their neighbors....brings them Christ, brings them love & brings them hope.

Lastly how would I be a good steward of a church & cant get to it regularly because of NY/NJ traffic & also the inconvenience. Noooo, church needs to be local, least in my eyes.

Why is SBC so big in the south & why is the RCC so big in the North......one big reason is accessibility. I have at least 1 RCC in each town in Northern NJ & depending on the community, maybe 2 & 3 Churches. You need to make your presence felt & you need to walk & talk with these people.

As a boy, I fondly remember Father John walking to my house, knocking on the door & coming in for a cup of coffee. How you folks doing, are you OK, how is Christ working in your life? Monsenior Belean helping us out with food, counseling my mom, helping us financially to get through school & pay our bills. And this was done with each RC family in the parish.....he even helped at Christmas & when the car died he offered to give us his own. This is what I mean by a community church. And if it has to start with my wife & I and then, with the help of God grow, so be it.

Last story, we neighborhood kids would play hoops on the street with a plywood backboard cut & a hoop mounted. Father G (long Italian name) comes by & stops the car & starts watchin us. Then he lets out a loud yell, "You Guys Stink!" LOL. Then he proceeds to teach us the proper way for a lay up ....yada yada. FOND MEMORIES!!!


My plan then, I start one & go to other places in the region till I do get it off the ground. With Gods help of course & hopefully your prayers.

You've got my prayers. I believe you will succeed.

About what you said regarding community: I agree wholeheartedly. But I also have mixed feelings about a situation where the community has no church that one can identify with. In that case it might be justifiable to drive an hour or more. I had to go outside my community to find my wife; maybe it's the same with a church.

But I also believe that if you've got two Christians (husband and wife, or two others), you've got a church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You've got my prayers. I believe you will succeed.

About what you said regarding community: I agree wholeheartedly. But I also have mixed feelings about a situation where the community has no church that one can identify with. In that case it might be justifiable to drive an hour or more. I had to go outside my community to find my wife; maybe it's the same with a church.

But I also believe that if you've got two Christians (husband and wife, or two others), you've got a church.

If it is justifiable to drive an hour or more Michael, then how do I make an impact on the folks in my own community who need Jesus? Off & on, I have been here in this town & community for 55 years & I have seen the "downgrade"..... there are no churches poundind the pavement & they only provide lip service/ NOT REAL touching the Flesh of Christ. I have a community where the central area is being turned into a drug infested location, I see people living without hope. What broke my heart was hearing about a beautiful young woman who was so dispondent she lept off a bridge with here baby & killed them both. I thought, where was her priest or pastor....it would have never happened if Father G, Father John or Father Belian had been there. They would have befriended her & she could have gone to them for advice, councel, money or whatever it is.

No my broher, I can no longer get into a car.....drive an hour to a place that doesnt know us ....essentually a gathering place & not address Christ in my own community.

Perhaps we are afraid to touch the flesh of God, even to touch the flesh of one another and understand what God is calling us into. The apostle Thomas symbolizes our temptation towards Faith that only resides in our heads & so Jesus recognizing this asks him to touch the wounds (John 20:27). See God is NOT calling us into our heads, but yet we have lived that way for so long that the world will no longer listen to us. Thats why my banner is & must be CHRIST IN COMMUNITY.

You have to unite under Christ & as I was taught as a young boy & I still believe it, anyone who unites under "Christ has died; Christ has risen & Christ will come again" is indeed Christian & better get busy. Blessings Michael & I covet your prayers!

Steve

 

[Oldtimer]

You've got my prayers. I believe you will succeed.

About what you said regarding community: I agree wholeheartedly. But I also have mixed feelings about a situation where the community has no church that one can identify with. In that case it might be justifiable to drive an hour or more. I had to go outside my community to find my wife; maybe it's the same with a church.

But I also believe that if you've got two Christians (husband and wife, or two others), you've got a church.

EWF, reading your posts and others is giving rise to what "community" within a church can mean.

A group of people standing in a circle, with shoulders touching, looking inward at each other. Satisifed, complacent, bickering, self-centered, secure in routine. Heard a story this week about a Sunday school room chair. A woman told a visitor to sit somewhere else as that had been HER chair for 14 years.

I spent my youth in a church much like that. Your post brought back a memory that I try to keep supressed because of the damage that was done that day. My mother was sick and wasn't able to come to services, so I went with a neighbor. That was the day I committed myself to Christ. It wasn't because of the preacher's sermon that morning. It was because I finally yielded to my Saviour's call. One that I'd been hearing for a while.

After church, I saw my mother's disappointment that I'd joined the church when she wasn't there. She told me she'd been waiting so long to see that happen. Years later, I realized it was no coincidence that my mother wasn't at church that day. God had a hand in it, as her disappointment would have been much greater, had she been there.

After I was voted into membership of the church, the pastor turned to the congregation and told them he was surprised at my lack of emotion that morning. Thankfully, I don't remember his exact words. In effect, he told the congregation that he had doubts about my salvation because I didn't meet his expectations (whatever they were) in my demeanor. Those words would have broken my mother's heart.

What's far worse, were the doubts that he instilled in this young skinny kid's head that morning. Why did he say that? Is he right? A preacher ought to know, shouldn't he? Couple that with my comments earlier will give more insight into why I drifted away from the church community for so many years.

A church community can mean people standing in a loose circle with outward reaching arms of welcome. Standing with their backs towards the center to provide a shelter to those who need it. A sense of -- stand behind us and we'll help you and Christ carry your load.

I found such a church. No, our Lord led me to such a church. It wasn't my doings. He sent a messenger to let me know it was time to come home. Too many years had passed and I didn't have many more left to be used in His service. Within in this assembly of God's people, this community, those lingering doubts from long ago disappeared. Replaced with the CONVICTION about what happened that morning when I was a skinny young teenager standing in front of the alter.

This community helped tear down the brick wall that I'd allowed satan to build in my heart around the Holy Spirit. Can't explain it, but somehow I was aware of that wall being torn down, brick by brick.

EWF, this has been a difficult testimony to share with you. While the wounds have healed, the scars, though faded, still remain. Sometimes it's hard to look at them. But, I believe we must, if it will help another brother deal with his. I hope that in some small measure, this is of some help.

Now, to what started this post. Is there any reason why you can't move closer to the church that's an hour's drive away? In these times, I'm sure there's probably a sacrifice or two that you may have to make. I don't have a clue as to how large or small they would be in your life. Perhaps the key to moving forward in God's plan for you life is tucked away in that church.

Something within my being is telling me that God may be waiting for you to take the next step. No, I'm not trying to tell you what that next step may be, as that's between you and our Lord. Only His guidance can do that.

Use the basis of Brother Michael's last sentence in bold above to take that next step, whatever it may be. May our Saviour bless each step you take in His name.

Father, as it be thy will, please help EWF take that step. I only know him as Earth, Wind, & Fire, but You know him personally. You know what's in his heart, far more than some stranger many miles away. You know what he needs to do. Help him kick aside any stumbling blocks that may be in his path, as You've helped removed them from mine. Lord, help him in his struggles, as you help each of us when we ask for Your will, not ours, be done in our lives. In the name of your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, I pray. Amen

Edit:

Father, I now know his name is Steve. His yearning is to help those around him now. As it by Thy will, again I petition that you open the door for him to serve others in Your name and the name of your Son. Amen