Featured Eschatology...

You Have Your Answer!

RL...you have the obvious answer....the teachings of Dispensationalism are correct! It is the ONLY system of Biblical thought about eschatology that makes any balanced sense...in my opinion and the opinion of the vast majority (again..in my opinion) of Bible Believers. The "they" of Rev.20 is the resurrected/raptured Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. The "they" is not figurative or intended to be spiritualized...it is intended to be taken LITERALLY. Do not be misled. Brother...I am praying for you RIGHT NOW that God will give you wisdom and build a hedge of protection around you that you will know the truth for God's sake and for His glory. God Bless You as you seek him.

Bro.Greg:godisgood:

 

Balderdash!!!!

I am without apology or regret a dispensationalist (not a "dispy"). I have NEVER regarded the Church as an "after thought" and I don't believe that is something true dispensationalists believe. The Church had/has a special place in the heart of our God and like the Nation of Israel, ALWAYS DID...from before the foundation of the world in the foreknowledge of God. It is beyond our limited understanding while we are in this world to know the complete purpose of each entity in the mind of God. Remember...as the Bible says in 1 Cor. 13:12 that "we see through a glass, darkly...". I think this is a principle that extends to many things that apply to God and the kingdom to come. The Church is special...and we are now in the Church age and this is "our time". God still loves Israel and their "time" wil come again. Prophetically, both the Church and Israel will dwell forever with the Lord because we are all...as saved,born again children, His Children. God is accomplishing His purpose His way. Amen!

Bro.Greg:godisgood:

 

God Bless You Brother...

RL....I will try to remember you in prayer as I see your name pop up on the board. I appreciate your honesty as you seek to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and His truth.

Just one little comment here....it occurs to me that God's "revealing" of His truth has been a progressive thing since day 1 in the Garden of Eden. In our day (regardless of the antics of the Charismatics) his truth is finished in the form of His Word....but, of course, our UNDERSTANDING of it is NOT. And so...we must seek the guidance of His blessed Holy Spirit as we seek Him and study His word. My judgement that "dispensationalism is the only system that makes sense" is of course, my opinion (but one I'll stick to). I've tried to follow the discussions and the arguments of the other systems of thought but they just don't "stick" to me like the dispensational arguments do. I wish you well dear brother.raying:

Bro.Greg

 

Its either the nation of Isreal forfeited all of her rights to God and the Kingdom, and the Lord gave it to the Church, or else it was put on hold for now dealing with isreal, and turning to the church, think latter is more biblical!

 

I think that is why paul stopped to give God a mini Doxology after describing Romans 9-11, as I think NONE of us fully see what God is really doing in those chapetrs regarding isreal/Church!

 

Isn't interesting that the early church took a passage that referred to Israel and their restoration and applied it to the church as the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel:

Act 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
Act 15:16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen ; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, [restoration of Israel]
Act 15:17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things

 

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I believe you are misunderstanding what I intended to convey.

There are some of Amillennial persuasion who believe that the first resurrection of Revelation 20:5 is in reference to ta spiritual resurrection, "new birth" or regeneration, of John 5:25. These Saints who have died are now reigning with Jesus Christ.

There are others of Amillennial persuasion who believe that the first resurrection of Revelation 20:5 is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been "new birthed" or regenerated. This is the view I hold. Actually I believe either view is consistent with the passage.

Scripture tells us: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Blessed and holy are those who are redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ because these are spared the second death, condemnation to the lake of fire.

The rest of the dead are the unsaved, those who died in Adam [Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22], who have not been redeemed to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Though some of these may be physically alive at the return of Jesus Christ they are spiritually dead, dead in sin. [It is important to remember that the 1000 years is not literal but represents the time lapse between the two comings of Jesus Christ.] At the return of the Lord in power and glory these dead will be judged before the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15].

There is no second death for the redeemed. These are the ones who will enter into the New Heavens and New Earth with God after the White Throne Judgment.

 

Please note that a second resurrection is not mentioned but only implied by use of the term "first resurrection". Recall also that my preferred interpretation of the "first resurrection" is the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Therefore, a second resurrection would also be a literal bodily resurrection. Those who have part in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ are the redeemed.

I believe that the second resurrection is that which Jesus Christ describes in John 28, 29!

I would recommend the book The Bible and the Future an excellent book on eschatology by Anthony A. Hoekema, a former professor of Systematic Theology at Calvin Theological Seminary. Hoekema who discusses a very difficult subject from a nonsensational perspective, is particularly attentive to the Biblical teaching of the “new heaven and new earth”. Hoekema writes as a covenant theologian from an amillennial perspective but also critiques other views. Hoekema expands the discussion of eschatology by insisting [page 1] that “the message of Biblical eschatology will be seriously impoverished if we do not include the present state of the believer and the present phase of the Kingdom of God”.

I would also recommend The Church and the Last Things by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. This book approaches the study of Last Things from an amillennial viewpoint. This book is based on a series of lectures presented by Martyn Lloyd-Jones to his congregation following the second World War. This book is easy to read and though written in a somewhat devotional style is very informative and strongly recommended. The book was initially one of a three volume set. I believe all three are now sold as a single volume but you can't go wrong in my opinion.

 

Not A Problem For Me...

Brother....I have no problem with any of those statements because (in my opinion) they do not display or reveal ANY kind of prejudice or preference for either group in the mind of God. God is no respecter of persons....He is only a/the Respecter of TRUTH. He has a distinct purpose in His plan of/for the ages for each group and we are all essential brothers(and sisters) in the Lord. God's purpose for the Nation of Israel is more defined in the physical earthly Kingdom that will be restored to them in the millennium and His purpose in the Church (as a spiritual body) is more defined in the unseen spiritual kingdom that exists in His presense in eternity past, present & future. There were exceptions in the OT where God allowed gentiles into the earthly kingdom just as there are times throughout recorded history in the Bible and earthly history where the Children of Israel (as individuals) have been ushered into the unseen spiritual Kingdom through salvation in Christ. God deals with differnt people at different times in different ways but the truth always remains the same.....it is found...in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in John 14:6. Remember...when Christ spoke these words, his audience at the time was a Jewish one at his last supper just before He went to Calvary. Those profound words have rung in the hearts of mankind of ALL walks ever since and tell the undeniable truth. That truth is that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to heaven for all people of all time. The Old Testament saints were awaiting their promised Messiah in paradise when Christ came, after He was crucified, and "led captivity captive"(Eph. 4:8-9) (paradise is now empty)just as the saints after His ascension from then to now(and future) are present with the Lord after we die(2 Cor.5:1-9, Phil.1:21-23). The immediate destination of all who are saved and die physically since the death, burial, resurrection
and ascension of our Saviour is heaven be they Jew or Gentile. But...God's intentions and plans for the Nation of Israel and the Blood-bought Church are still distinct and different according to His purpose. I personally believe (and I'm sure I'm not alone) that God is currently using the Church(spiritually) as the prime instrument to spread the Gospel of Salvation through Christ by grace through faith in the last days as the history of this world heads to it's conclusion. At the same time, He began once again in May of 1948 to use the revived nation of Israel (physically speaking...NOT spiritually) (even in it's unbelief) as the prime catalyst to influence world events toward that same end as He sets the stage for the Millennial Kingdom and the earthly reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe things are moving along right on God's schedule and timetable. Therefore we, as Children of the King of Kings, can live WITHOUT FEAR. Hallelujah!!!:thumbsup: Bless You Brother.

Bro.Greg:godisgood:

 

:thumbs: excellent!

 

Hello OR, long time no see.

This is true...there are a number of verses and passages that support the Pre-Trib Rapture. So I have to agree with you here.

And there are a number of problems with teaching one general resurrection, which is a foundational principles of God's word. However, having had revealed to us revelation concerning resurrection which was withheld from Old Testament saints, it makes little sense to cling to the basic principles, rather than go on to the more complete understanding afforded to New Testament believers.

One obvious problem you include in your comments concerning the First Resurrection, which reminds us there are a number of resurrections before the "First" and you choose the resurrection of the Lord as a candidate.

Another problem would be that only the dead in Christ and believers remaining alive are mentioned in 1 Thessalonians. In the First resurrection, only Tribulation Martyrs are mentioned. Again...only believers. The lost remain...dead.

Curious, no?

We see clearly two resurrections between the thousand year period, a period that many of us see to be a fulfilment of God's promise for a restored Kingdom for Israel.

Now it is just the conclusion of my study, but all is cleared up simply by understanding "First" to mean the "type" of resurrection apart from sequential placement. In other words, "first resurrection" refers to the resurrection unto life just as Chief Priest refers to upper management, lol.

That it does. And usually when we see a specific number given in scripture it is referring to that number.

But this does not refer to the resurrection of Christ. This is a new argument, and honestly, not a good one.

We cannot ascribe the title First Resurrection to the Lord's resurrection. While it is the first unto glorification, nowhere do we see this in scripture. What is true is that the Lord's resurrection falls under the the category of "first," as it is a resurrection unto life into an eternal body.

But it is not the First Resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20, which refers to the resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs.

That the Lord was resurrected, no. The rest, yes.

Not that scripture refers to a second resurrection, but I would agree that the Great White Throne judgement will be a general resurrection of sorts, in which the dead will be raised and judged. If-and this is a big IF-it is true that at the Great White Throne judgment there will also be among those raised that are Just, then we could view this as a "general resurrection." It is your text that keeps me from being dogmatic about only the wicked being raised, as it is very possible that those that die (the just) in the Millennial Kingdom will not be raised until the end of that Age.

Immediately after the Tribulation.

It is not coincidence that the Lord's teaching concerning the Tribulation is followed by teaching concerning separation of the wicked and the Just:



Matthew 24:37-43

King James Version (KJV)


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Now there is no mistaking that those "taken" are taken in judgment. If we conclude that there is no Kingdom, then how is it that the others...are "left?"

Left where?

What happened to the catching away?

But can reasonably be understood literally (except where it is clearly symbolic or metaphoric or hyperbolic, et cetera) and not only that, fit the promise and prophecy of God and scripture better.

Except we do not have a thousand years, but just under two thousand. Are we to suppose that a thousand years has now become synonymous with a "long period?"

I just cannot see that. When we see the phrase "Day of the Lord" and "day," we can see they refer to long periods, or extended periods, I should say, but again, usually specific timeframes mean just what they say.

Okay, just wanted to comment briefly.

God bless.

 

One qhuestion I would ask: is the term "souls" specific to the spirits of men, or is it used over and over in scripture to refer to men in totality?

In verse four John sees them, and whether they are simply spirits or embodied is an irrelevant point as we see that regardless..they lived. Many see this as meaning that at this time, though it is not said, that they "lived again," as we see in v.5 that the "rest of the dead (another indicator that the martyrs are at this time resurrected being the other part of the "rest of the dead") lived not again.

Sorry, but that can be denied: Lazarus experienced a bodily resurrection; at the time of the Crucifixion, saints were raised and "went to towen," lol.

But, if we are talking about glorification, then we can say that the Lord's was without dispute the first. And I believe it was part of the First. Just not that mentioned in Revelation 20.

In Revelation, nothing doubting, we see the Two Witnesses experience the First Resurrection, and we cannot deny that they are two literal men, bodily dead, raised...and then raptured (caught away).

Only those who's faith is in Christ. I think we can narrow it down to born-again believers, but I am not dogmatic about that.

At this point, no-one is glorified apart from Christ. I would be interested to know a biblical basis for this position, though, if there is one to be offered.

If you are just meaning that all the saints are resurrected in the First Resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20, then I would ask what we would do with the thousand years you implied could be the current Age?

God bless.

 

Could you show by Scripture those who were resurrected prior to Jesus Christ!

Paul is addressing the concern of believers. I call your attention to Verses 13 and 18 below. There is no need for Paul to address the resurrection of the unbeliever!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Then this first resurrection could not be the So-Called Pre-Trib Rapture could it?

Not really! A second resurrection is not even mentioned. A second death is though.

As I indicated earlier many amillennialists believe the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection as indicated in John 5:25. I did not realize you were of that persuasion.

As I requested earlier can you present Scripture to justify a resurrection prior to that of Jesus Christ?

Then this first resurrection could not be the So-Called Pre-Trib Rapture could it?

I have not indicated that any were resurrected other than Jesus Christ. Obviously Saints, deceased or otherwise, have undergone spiritual resurrection. As I note routinely Jesus Christ is the first bodily resurrection. A second resurrection of ALL the dead shall occur at the return of Jesus Christ.

Just one more problem introduced by premillennialism, particularly the dispensational type.

What judgment?

That is a good question. I don't believe in the snatching away, you do!

 

Souls is used in Scripture to indicate the spirits of man and on occasion the totality of man.

The rest of the dead are those who died in Adam. The term "lived not" is simply contrast to those who lived and reigned with Jesus Christ!

Lazarus was not resurrected, he was raised from the dead. Big difference. In Scripture the resurrection means raised with a glorified body as Jesus Christ had.

See above!

Sure we can deny they are two literal men. Revelation is written in apocalyptic language, not necessarily to be interpreted literally.

I am!

That is correct. The only bodily resurrection that has occurred at this point in time is that of Jesus Christ. Those reigning with Jesus Christ are the souls of the departed Saints.

I have stated that the First Resurrection is that of Jesus Christ. no One else!

 

Absolutely:


This first example could be argued: it may be the man's servants were mistaken, and the young girl had not died. I think that the event is recorded because she did die, and was resurrected before Christ's arrival to the house:



Mark 5:22-24

King James Version (KJV)


22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,

23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.

24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.



Mark 5:35-43

King James Version (KJV)


35 While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.

38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.

39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.

42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.

43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.



This next example there is no doubt among anyone, as the Lord Himself said, "Lazarus sleepeth," the Holy Spirit's commentary being, "howbeit Jesus spake of his death," then the Lord affirming by saying plainly, "Lazarus is dead." Which nails down "sleep" as euphemistic for death.


John 11:43-44

King James Version (KJV)


43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


That there were likely more than these can be seen when the disciples are sent out by the Lord:


Matthew 10:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


And at the time of the Lord's death on the Cross (and keep in mind this is before the Lord's resurrection), we see:



Matthew 27:50-53

King James Version (KJV)


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Some believe these saints are the firstfruits, yet I cannot agree with this as Christ is the firstfruit from the dead:



1 Corinthians 15:20

King James Version (KJV)


20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Now I am sure you will agree that we can distinguish these resurrections from the resurrection of the Lord and the First Resurrection, as all these above were raised only to physically die again.

But, they do show that there were those resurrected before the Lord.

Continued...