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Read what you did say more carefully.I told you not to go crazy on me! It was an observation on my part..I did not say you said it!
AGAIN...I said it was MY observation! I NEVER said you said it!
They were only thankful that they had been cleansed of their leprosy. They never "came to Christ." That is the whole point of the story. Jesus makes a point of asking, "Where are the other nine?"But does it say the rest were not? ...or...just not thankful!
Where does it say he was saved.So when Jesus said to get up and the man did not obey him...would he have faith! So I will disagree with you on the part that the sick person did not have faith! If he did not have faith he would have stayed on the mat!
I know what I said..and I knew how you would take it and twist it. That is why I said "Don't go crazy on me"..Read what you did say more carefully.
I am not going to argue the point... I just do not see it!They were only thankful that they had been cleansed of their leprosy. They never "came to Christ." That is the whole point of the story. Jesus makes a point of asking, "Where are the other nine?"
True..but my point was that it was faith that healed him!Where does it say he was saved.
Faith in a healer does not mean faith is a Savior.
They are two different things.
You can put your faith in Benny Hinn but you won't be saved; you may not be healed either.
Jesus healed thousands, most of whom had no faith at all.True..but my point was that it was faith that healed him!
Jesus healed thousands, most of whom had no faith at all.
Faith did not heal anyone.
Jesus did all the healing.
Notice in John 6:10ff Jesus fed 5,000 hungry and tired people and none of them had faith. None of them expected it.I have posted these several times...
"By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see." (Acts 3:16)
"In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, "Stand up on your feet!" At that, the man jumped up and began to walk." (Acts 14:8-10)
"Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you"; and their sight was restored" (Matthew 9:29-30)
""What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see." "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road." (Mark 10:51-52)
"Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you."" (Luke 8:48)
"Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."" (Luke 17:19)
Notice that their faith was involved in receiving their healing!
Coming to them was their faith...if they did not believe they could heal them..they would not have gone to them!Notice in John 6:10ff Jesus fed 5,000 hungry and tired people and none of them had faith. None of them expected it.
Notice in Mark chapter one that hundreds came to Jesus but there is no mention of them needing faith to be healed.
Notice in Acts 5:16 that Peter healed thousands. Not a single person was required to have faith. Faith is not needed to be healed. Christ heals not faith.
John 14:21 One who has my commandments, and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him." WEBMore scriputures where the word manifest is made clear...
JOH 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will MANIFEST myself to him.
JOH 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt MANIFEST thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
JOH 17:6 I have MANIFESTed thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
reveal/manifest..the same! They both expose...make visible or observable.John 14:21 One who has my commandments, and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him." WEB
John 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?" WEB
John 17:6 I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word. WEB
The word manifest simply means "to reveal." This can easily be seen through the WEB translation. The Holy Spirit reveals himself in different ways in different ages. Today he is revealed to us through the Word of God, and his working is revealed in the fruit of the Spirit. His work is also revealed in the conviction of the world of sin, judgment and of righteousness.
No longer is the Holy Spirit revealed to us through the gifts of the Spirit.
That era has passed. It was confined to the apostolic age.
In different ways as delineated through the Scriptures. The gifts of the Spirit have ceased for a litany of reasons, all of which have been given to you many times over.reveal/manifest..the same! They both expose...make visible or observable.
THe work of the Holy Spirit began the Day of Pentecost and will continue until Jesus returns!
Your theories do not count as reasons! THe Bible is clear when they will cease!In different ways as delineated through the Scriptures. The gifts of the Spirit have ceased for a litany of reasons, all of which have been given to you many times over.
Your theories do not count as reasons! THe Bible is clear when they will cease!
and scripture to prove your theory is??the required Ones for us to have in the church are still there today, the office of teacher, pastor, evangelist, and the gifts to teach/exhort/giving etc
Just that the revaltory signs and wonders as being part of the normal way the lord does things has ceased!
and scripture to prove your theory is??
Just because it verified the apostleship...does not mean it was the only reason!hebrews author clear that signs and wonders WERE past done to confirm the Gospel by the Lords Apsotles, but now instructed to build upon the foundation of Christ and the Apostles!
paul said that the Gospel message was that jesus was born, died for atonement of Sins, and rose again
he did NOT bring in the additional stuff that you wished him to have!
This is where you are not listening to logic or reason.Just because it verified the apostleship...does not mean it was the only reason!
I agree that the good news is Jesus virgin birth, sinless life, death and resurrection!
No Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost! That same Spirit is still here today! Show me in scriptures where he is not here manifesting himself through us..
The gifts are the manifestataion of the Holy Spirit! THE GIFT is the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.The first fact is that the "spiritual gifts" not the Holy Spirit, have ceased.
I mentioned earlier that there are many that believe as Yeshua that just the sign gifts have ceased. Others, like myself, believe all have ceased. That really doesn't matter. For sake of argument I would rather limit it to Yeshua's position.
No, they would not have to cease. YOu have not shown that it was just for that generation of unbelieving Jews!The second fact is that these "spiritual gifts", not the Holy Spirit, have different purposes. However if their greater purposes are fulfilled and limit the use of the secondary purposes then they would have to cease wouldn't they?
For example, if their greater purpose was to be a sign for the apostle. Then they could only be for the length of time of the apostles or the Apostolic Age, and then would cease. All other purposes would be subject to that.
But another purpose was a sign to the unbelieving Jew of that generation. That generation has also passed off the stage. Therefore there is no more need for the sign (specifically tongues).
The Holy Spirit does more than just give the writers of the written word revelation/inspiration! THe manifestations are for the church..last time I looked...the church is still here!If three of them in particular were used for revelation, and revelation was complete at the end of the first century. That is when the last book of the Bible was written. Then we have no need of them today. Regardless of the dispute of the canon of Scripture, it wasn't the 21st century. There still isn't any use for those three revelatory gifts mentioned in 1Cor.13:8 because the canon of Scripture is closed. We have the Bible (and in many different languages).
THat is just the way you theorize it to fit your belief.It is evident when all of these major purposes for the gifts ended at the first century that we can safely say that that is when they ended. There should be no question about it.
No where does it say the Holy Spirit stopped manifesting as 1 Cor. explains...NOWHERE!How does the Holy Spirit work today?
In many ways: Through the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Through conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.
There are other ways as well. But those are the primary ministries.
The gifts are the manifestataion of the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Spirit is nowhere mentioned as a gift.The gifts are the manifestataion of the Holy Spirit! THE GIFT is the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
If I gave you evidence that elephants fly, you would not believe me.No, they would not have to cease. YOu have not shown that it was just for that generation of unbelieving Jews!
Yes, he does more than that. He operates in different ways at different times. He spoke to Moses out of a burning bush. The last time I looked He wasn't speaking to you out of a burning bush. According to you the Holy Spirit has met his demise. Someone killed him off. He hasn't been around since the burning bush incident since he hasn't spoken in burning bushes since then. That is precisely your logic.The Holy Spirit does more than just give the writers of the written word revelation/inspiration!
I don't believe in an esoteric existential metaphysical religion defined by meaningless words that are redefined by you according to your whim and will.THe manifestations are for the church..last time I looked...the church is still here!
That is what Scripture says. If it isn't prove me wrong according to Scripture.THat is just the way you theorize it to fit your belief.
You put words in my mouth. Anywhere else that is called lying.No where does it say the Holy Spirit stopped manifesting as 1 Cor. explains...NOWHERE!
This was before the Day of Pentecost!We have an example of the Holy Spirit without "gifts";
Luke 2:25-27 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
The Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost was said to be upon them (Acts 1:8)...so what do you see is the difference?We have the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit;
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
So you are saying that these devout men of every nation were saved when they said "brethren?" Why did they ask what they should do if they were already saved?We have the promise of gifts to the nation of Israel;
Joel 2:28-31 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
At Pentecost we have a declaration of the fulfillment of this promise;
Acts 2:14-16 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
At Pentecost we have the disciples (Galilaeans) and those who were observing. The promised Holy Spirit came on those who believed and evidence was shown by being able to speak in other languages and the visual indicator of tongues of flame.
Acts 2:3-4 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Those who observed heard Peter preach the gospel. Some believed the truth of the gospel and as a result of this were were horrified to now understand that a few weeks earlier they had put to death the Messiah. They called Peter and the disciples "brothers" indicating that they too had become Christian. They asked what they should do.
So were they saved when they said "brethren" or when they received the Holy Spirit?Acts 2:37-39 Now, having heard this, they were stung to the heart with poignant sorrow. And they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, What shall we do, men, brothers? And Peter said to them, Have a change of mind, that change of mind being accompanied by abhorrence of and sorrow for your deed, and let each one of you be baptized upon the ground of your confession of belief in the sum total of all that Jesus Christ is in His glorious Person, this baptismal testimony being in relation to the fact that your sins have been put away, and you shall receive the gratuitous gift of the Holy Spirit, for to you is the promise and to your children and to all who are at a distance, as many as the Lord our God shall with a divine summons call to himself. - Wuest
Ok..I see now! So you think that it is two different experiences?There are many that will argue the point. But I see here that repentance and baptism come after salvation and that the receiving of the Holy Spirit as a gift is different than receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation.
I followed and agreed to a point until this last paragraph. THe Holy Spirit was not JUST to cause the Jews to be jealous. The HS was given to the church to benefit the church.The case can be made that the reception of the Holy Spirit at salvation is distinct from the reception of the "gift" of the Spirit. We can see the distinction with the example of Simon;
Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
We have an example of salvation preceding the reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit and that this reception is accomplished through the laying on of hands.
Acts 8:14-18 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
There are three main view of these gifts. That they still function today as they did at the time of the apostles, that only some do, or that none do. It is difficult to support the full gift view since it also included raising the dead. I think the partial (sometimes called administrative gift) view is also difficult to support because there is no laying on of hands and these "gifts" often seem difficult to identify.
The verses in Joel also seem to have not been fulfilled completely just as when Jesus started His ministry, he did not complete the quote from Isaiah. There was room left for Israel to receive the Kingdom that was offered. However even the giving of spiritual gifts to the gentiles was insufficient to provoke the Jews to jealousy.
True, but Jews were coming to know the Lord before the Gentiles were grafted in. The HS was poured out to the church for power and He is manifested in different ways through the church.10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 10:19-20 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
I suspect that when Israel is restored, we will again see these gifts of power spoken of by Joel.