Is it always God's will to heal?

[plain_n_simple]

Awww...now you have gone and hurt our little ole feelings.

Probably so, like the people that get upset at thinking their salvation gets questioned.
If you know you are saved, anything anyone could possibly say could never upset you, if you know. Quite telling when the feathers get ruffled on what people really beileve lol

 

[Revmitchell]

Probably so, like the people that get upset at thinking their salvation gets questioned.
If you know you are saved, anything anyone could possibly say could never upset you, if you know. Quite telling when the feathers get ruffled on what people really beileve lol

Oh?! You must mean like your last post.

 

[saturneptune]

Probably so, like the people that get upset at thinking their salvation gets questioned.
If you know you are saved, anything anyone could possibly say could never upset you, if you know. Quite telling when the feathers get ruffled on what people really beileve lol

The only solution for you and your posts is to be banned.

 

[DHK]

Job did not blame God for what was happening! God desire is not for us to be sick! This thread said is it God's desire that we are healed! The answer is yes! What happen to Job was not God's desire!

Job 3:25,26 Job feared greatly the thing that come upon him. Tell me how did he trust God and fear at the same time? He said he was not in safety, where is the faith in that? Fear counteracts Faith! If he trusted God to protect Him then why did he fear it would happen? Fear opened the door!

Read the book of Job carefully. Do you know who the friends of Job were?

Job's friends were:

Charismatic tormentors!!

 

[awaken]

Read the book of Job carefully. Do you know who the friends of Job were?

Job's friends were:

Charismatic tormentors!!

I see them more as religious people without faith!

 

[John of Japan]

I have to repeat myself on so many different threads because everyone has to open their own personal thread about a subject...so again...

Yes, and I dealt clearly with your points on the other thread, and you didn't answer my arguments.

In order to fully understand what it means to have a "thorn," it's helpful to examine every place where this concept appears in the Bible. Here are the remaining places where people seem to have had "thorns":

Yours is a very incomplete and shallow study. The term thorn or thorns occurs 55 times in the KJV. That's 41 times in the OT and 14 times in the NT. The times you mentioned are all metaphorical, but just glancing through I noted several other metaphorical usages in the OT that you missed. But our problem is in the NT, not the OT. There is a great difference in the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT and how they handle words, which you don't take into account. You can't take an OT Hebrew word and say it rules the NT Greek word. That's just poor exegesis.

Of the 14 times in the NT, our passage is the only one that is metaphorical. The other 13 are literal. Do you know what a metaphor is? You don't show that you do.

Numbers 33:55: "'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live."

Joshua 23:13: "then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you."

Judges 2:2: "and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?"
Judges 2:3: "Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns [several translations of the Bible indicate that the word "thorns" is implied here] in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you."

Ezekiel 28:24: "No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."

Notice that in every description of a "thorn," it's always used to describe people who are bringing suffering upon other people.

Even were I to accept your view that these OT metaphors were identical to the single NT metaphor (and I don't), not one of these metaphors is referring to a demon. In fact, one refers to nations, not individuals. So they are moot.

Paul specifically said that his "thorn" was a demon which was bringing suffering upon him everywhere he went, which is exactly the same way that a "thorn" is used everywhere else in Scripture. It has nothing to do with sickness or disease, and it does not prove that is is God will not to heal!

No, Paul did not specifically say that the "thorn" was a demon. In that case he would have used the Greek word daimonion. The word he used was aggelos, "messenger." It is completely proper, in the light of the book of Job, which Paul knew well, to interpret this as a sickness, which he specifically calls it with the Greek word astheneia, which means a physical weakness. Every single Greek scholar I mentioned, all 10 of them, knew this. Anyone who reads the NT koine Greek fluently immediatly knows this. You don't read Greek, so you are misinterpreting it.

 

[awaken]

Yes, and I dealt clearly with your points on the other thread, and you didn't answer my arguments.

Yours is a very incomplete and shallow study. The term thorn or thorns occurs 55 times in the KJV. That's 41 times in the OT and 14 times in the NT. The times you mentioned are all metaphorical, but just glancing through I noted several other metaphorical usages in the OT that you missed. But our problem is in the NT, not the OT. There is a great difference in the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT and how they handle words, which you don't take into account. You can't take an OT Hebrew word and say it rules the NT Greek word. That's just poor exegesis.

Of the 14 times in the NT, our passage is the only one that is metaphorical. The other 13 are literal. Do you know what a metaphor is? You don't show that you do.
Even were I to accept your view that these OT metaphors were identical to the single NT metaphor (and I don't), not one of these metaphors is referring to a demon. In fact, one refers to nations, not individuals. So they are moot.

No, Paul did not specifically say that the "thorn" was a demon. In that case he would have used the Greek word daimonion. The word he used was aggelos, "messenger." It is completely proper, in the light of the book of Job, which Paul knew well, to interpret this as a sickness, which he specifically calls it with the Greek word astheneia, which means a physical weakness. Every single Greek scholar I mentioned, all 10 of them, knew this. Anyone who reads the NT koine Greek fluently immediatly knows this. You don't read Greek, so you are misinterpreting it.

2 Corinthians 11:23: "Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again."
2 Corinthians 11:24: "Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one."
2 Corinthians 11:25: "Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,"
2 Corinthians 11:26: "I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers."
2 Corinthians 11:27: "I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."
2 Corinthians 11:28: "Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches."
Several chapters earlier, Paul described even more of his sufferings and afflictions:
2 Corinthians 6:4: "Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses;"
2 Corinthians 6:5: "in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger;"
2 Corinthians 6:6: "in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love;"
2 Corinthians 6:7: "in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left;"
2 Corinthians 6:8: "through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors;"
2 Corinthians 6:9: "known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed;"
2 Corinthians 6:10: "sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything."

Paul described just about every form of suffering and affliction that we could possibly think of, yet nowhere in these verses did he mention any sicknesses or diseases. Paul's "thorn" had nothing to do with sickness, but instead his "thorn" was a demon who continually harassed him with many hardships and sufferings.

 

[DHK]

2 Corinthians 11:23: "Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again."
2 Corinthians 11:24: "Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one."
2 Corinthians 11:25: "Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,"
2 Corinthians 11:26: "I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers."
2 Corinthians 11:27: "I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."
2 Corinthians 11:28: "Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches."
Several chapters earlier, Paul described even more of his sufferings and afflictions:
2 Corinthians 6:4: "Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses;"
2 Corinthians 6:5: "in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger;"
2 Corinthians 6:6: "in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love;"
2 Corinthians 6:7: "in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left;"
2 Corinthians 6:8: "through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors;"
2 Corinthians 6:9: "known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed;"
2 Corinthians 6:10: "sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything."

Paul described just about every form of suffering and affliction that we could possibly think of, yet nowhere in these verses did he mention any sicknesses or diseases. Paul's "thorn" had nothing to do with sickness, but instead his "thorn" was a demon who continually harassed him with many hardships and sufferings.

The Charismatics have a hard time properly exegeting Scripture.
First rule of thumb: When you can't understand the passage attribute it to a demon. Right on Awaken. You have done that here. The passage says nothing about demons, but like the typical Charismatic who sees demons behind every bush and every door, every unexplainable thing is attributed to a demon. You are fitting right in. When are you going to leave the Baptists completely and go join a Charismatic church?
I fear we are just confirming you in your faith. The more you argue for it, the more you convince yourself that your self-deception is true. The passage says that Paul had an actual "thorn in the flesh," a physical malady. The "thorn" of course, was a figure of speech. It represented something, which he pretty much defines for us, as infirmity. It was an affliction which he bore most of his life, most likely the poor eyesight that he refers to elsewhere.

 

[John of Japan]

Could have been stomach problems...but if the wine seem to cure it! It still does not prove that God wants us sick!

What it proves is that it is not God's will for us to be miraculously and immediately cured of all diseases, as Charismatics teach. Further, it teaches us that God recognizes that medicines are valuable in healing, and that it is not always His will for a cure to be miraculous. (The fact that Dr. Luke travelled with Paul is another illustration of that.)

What it means when the Lord "disciplines" or "chastens" those He loves (Hebrews 12:6-7). The Greek word for "discipline" or "chasten" in that passage means "instruct, learn, teach," according to Strong's Greek Dictionary. Notice that loving parents would not discipline their children by intentionally inflicting cancer or AIDS or any other disease on them! God is a God who loves His children and has our best interests at heart, He's not a God of child abuse. But even if we want to believe that sicknesses are "chastenings," notice that the above passage instructs us to endure chastenings! So if we believe that sicknesses are "chastenings" then we should not go to a doctor nor take any medication nor do anything to alleviate our symptoms nor try to get better, because then we're not enduring our discipline.

In the first place, I almost never use Strong's because it is well over 100 years out of date. But I realize that's all you have, and it's not too bad on this one, paidea (noun) and paideuo (verb). For the verb paideuo it says, "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by implication), discipline (by punishment):--chasten(-ise), instruct, learn, teach."

So from the meaning of the word, God certainly punishes us through sickness and injury when we stray from his will. And it's ridiculous to assume that because God punishes us He wants us to stay sick and not go to a doctor. I don't believe that at all. When I spanked my son, I then held him and spoke comforting words to him.

When I was in college my kung fu teacher kicked my knee and tore the cartilege. Lying in the hospital waiting for surgery I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was God's discipline because I had strayed from Him. The surgery fixed it, and I thank God for His discipline and have thanked my kung fu teacher.

God might sometimes use an existing sickness as a way of teaching us something, but this doesn't mean that all of our sicknesses are "afflictions" or "chastenings." Many people are misusing these Scriptures to justify their sicknesses and diseases and infirmities, but wouldn't you rather believe what the Bible really says and then receive healing from your sickness and pain?

When I had knee surgery, it was exactly what I needed to draw me back to Christ. I was glad for the pain. People who think pain is bad things are foolish. Pain is a gift from God, something that is part of our physical bodies. If we had no pain how would we know when we had a hand on a hot stove?

And since you say, "God might sometimes use an existing sickness," you are then admitting that sickness might be a good thing sometimes.

I also addressed this in another post. God did heal Job! So this scripture does not prove that it is not God's will to heal! Job allowed satan a door into his life through fear! The thing he feared the most happened to him!

Then you do believe that it was God's will for Job to be sick for a while, because God did not immediately cure him. And no, Job did not allow Satan a door into his life through fear. That's just not there in Job. He was a righteous man when he fell ill.

When Paul began boasting about his "thorn in the flesh," he was boasting about insults, hardships, persecutions, difficulties, and anything that made him weak, because God's power is made perfect in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). In fact, we can see that in the previous chapter of the same book (2 Corinthians) Paul boasted about more of his sufferings and afflictions and weaknesses...not sickness!

So sickness is not a form of weakness? And Paul's "painfulness" was never sickness? How could he spend a day and a night in the deep with no physical consequences? How was he healed after being beaten and stoned--events which produced physical wounds? If he was not healed right away ("Hey, didn't we just bet the fire out of that guy? How come he stopped bleeding?"), then it was God's will for him to hurt with a physical problem for awhile.

I have never denied that God does not work all things out for His glory. But...we should keep in mind that God might use an existing sickness to teach us something, but it was never His desire for us to be sick

Then you agree that God uses sickness to teach us. In that case, immediate healing is not God's will--otherwise how would we learn?

 

[awaken]

The Charismatics have a hard time properly exegeting Scripture.
First rule of thumb: When you can't understand the passage attribute it to a demon. Right on Awaken. You have done that here. The passage says nothing about demons, but like the typical Charismatic who sees demons behind every bush and every door, every unexplainable thing is attributed to a demon. You are fitting right in. When are you going to leave the Baptists completely and go join a Charismatic church?
I fear we are just confirming you in your faith. The more you argue for it, the more you convince yourself that your self-deception is true. The passage says that Paul had an actual "thorn in the flesh," a physical malady. The "thorn" of course, was a figure of speech. It represented something, which he pretty much defines for us, as infirmity. It was an affliction which he bore most of his life, most likely the poor eyesight that he refers to elsewhere.

Again..you read right over it..even in scriptures.

When Paul used the terminology "thorn in the flesh," the original readers minds immediately went back to the imagery in the OT scriptures I posted earlier (Num 33; Joshua 23;Judges 2). In each case, it referred to people who were antagonistic toward God's people. This is futher biblical evidence tha Paul's thorn in the flesh was a demonic personality, a dark angel, a messenger from Satan that stirred up persecutions everywhere Paul went. He made reference to this in his letter to the Corinthians, saying, in essence, "we apostles suffer more than anybody else. The people we minister to are esteemed and blessed, but we are despised and considered the scourges of the earth..." (1 Cor. 4:9-13).

Paul was talking about hardships and persecution that he endured. This messenger worked hard to influence people wherever Paul went, to persecute him. Paul manifested the power of God in his life, but it was with a price!

Paul sought the Lord 3 times to remove this thorn in the flesh, this messenger had stirred up persecution through people. As I showed in the OT, that's what a thorn in the flesh is: persecution through people.

Persecution we will have...but that is different than sickness!

If you will recall Paul was a persecuter! Jesus told Ananias that he would suffer many things in his calling. Now he is the one being persecuted! But His Grace is sufficient for Paul and for us!

 

[DHK]

Again..you read right over it..even in scriptures.

When Paul used the terminology "thorn in the flesh," the original readers minds immediately went back to the imagery in the OT scriptures I posted earlier (Num 33; Joshua 23;Judges 2).

And they all had Strong's exhaustive Concordance to look up the word "thorn" in all those big bulky scrolls that all the OT books were written. It would have been nicer to have a laptop, but mud huts do have their limitations.

In each case, it referred to people who were antagonistic toward God's people.

In my reading thorns usually refer to "thorns" just as bramble does.
Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

This is futher biblical evidence tha Paul's thorn in the flesh was a demonic personality, a dark angel, a messenger from Satan that stirred up persecutions everywhere Paul went.

What is further evidence? That thorn means thorn and bramble means bramble? I hardly think so? You would fit in well with Origen and Augustine. Origen was the one who invented the allegorical method of interpreting the Bible, and Augustine popularized. That is what you are doing. Origen was a heretic, and Augustine, one of the founders of the RCC. Do you usually follow such men in your theology?

He made reference to this in his letter to the Corinthians, saying, in essence, "we apostles suffer more than anybody else. The people we minister to are esteemed and blessed, but we are despised and considered the scourges of the earth..." (1 Cor. 4:9-13).
Pay attention to that. We apostles SUFFER. Suffer means suffer. It included suffering from persecution, suffering from sickness, suffering from all kinds of things.

Paul was talking about hardships and persecution that he endured. This messenger worked hard to influence people wherever Paul went, to persecute him. Paul manifested the power of God in his life, but it was with a price!

No, Paul was talking about "suffering," an all inclusive word that results from pain inflicted upon a person whether from persecution, inclement whether, illnesses and sickness, etc. Suffering is suffering.
The Bible rightly says: "Thou shalt not suffer a fool."

Paul sought the Lord 3 times to remove this thorn in the flesh, this messenger had stirred up persecution through people. As I showed in the OT, that's what a thorn in the flesh is: persecution through people.

Through the Book of Job we learn that the messenger of Satan is God allowing Satan to send an affliction, as he did on Job, on Paul. Paul then concludes: Therefore I will gladly glory in my afflictions, infirmities, etc.
For when I am weak then I am strong.
He was obviously referring to a physical infirmity, a weakness, a sickness that God would not heal in order to keep him humble.

Persecution we will have...but that is different than sickness!

No, we don't all face persecution. I doubt if you face persecution or even know what it is. You didn't read my link. You don't know what goes on in this world. You really don't know what persecution is. No one has come and burned your home, threatened your life, stoned you as they did Stephen or Paul. What persecution have you faced? Give me a break!

If you will recall Paul was a persecuter! Jesus told Ananias that he would suffer many things in his calling. Now he is the one being persecuted! But His Grace is sufficient for Paul and for us!

God did not tell Ananias that Paul would be the only one to suffer persecution.
All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[awaken]

What it proves is that it is not God's will for us to be miraculously and immediately cured of all diseases, as Charismatics teach.

You seem to forget that I have already agreed that God heals in different ways!

Further, it teaches us that God recognizes that medicines are valuable in healing, and that it is not always His will for a cure to be miraculous. (The fact that Dr. Luke travelled with Paul is another illustration of that.)

He heals in many ways! I have never said it was just miraculous! He is our healer!

In the first place, I almost never use Strong's because it is well over 100 years out of date. But I realize that's all you have, and it's not too bad on this one, paidea (noun) and paideuo (verb). For the verb paideuo it says, "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by implication), discipline (by punishment):--chasten(-ise), instruct, learn, teach."

You sure do assume alot!

So from the meaning of the word, God certainly punishes us through sickness and injury when we stray from his will. And it's ridiculous to assume that because God punishes us He wants us to stay sick and not go to a doctor. I don't believe that at all. When I spanked my son, I then held him and spoke comforting words to him.

When I was in college my kung fu teacher kicked my knee and tore the cartilege. Lying in the hospital waiting for surgery I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was God's discipline because I had strayed from Him. The surgery fixed it, and I thank God for His discipline and have thanked my kung fu teacher.
When I had knee surgery, it was exactly what I needed to draw me back to Christ. I was glad for the pain. People who think pain is bad things are foolish. Pain is a gift from God, something that is part of our physical bodies. If we had no pain how would we know when we had a hand on a hot stove?

No he does not punish us with sickness...he will use our sickness to teach us! But he does not cause the sickness!
THere are three main reasons people get sick
Sin (John 5:14)/A direct attack from satan (1 Peter5:8)/Natural things (things just happen, like falling down stairs etc.).

And since you say, "God might sometimes use an existing sickness," you are then admitting that sickness might be a good thing sometimes.
Then you do believe that it was God's will for Job to be sick for a while, because God did not immediately cure him. And no, Job did not allow Satan a door into his life through fear. That's just not there in Job. He was a righteous man when he fell ill.

A righteous man can still fear!
I do not think sickness is a blessing! God wants to bless his children! The Word does not teach that God want us sick.
God does not allow people to go to hell. In one sense, we could say that He allows it because of His high regard for our free will. But it's not His desire, wish, or plan. God puts road blocks in our way, inviting us to rpent and be born again, but ultimately He gives us a choice. Anyone that goes to hell has to climb over mountains of obstacles the Lord placed in their path.

Sickness is always a curse in the OT...think about that!

So sickness is not a form of weakness? And Paul's "painfulness" was never sickness? How could he spend a day and a night in the deep with no physical consequences? How was he healed after being beaten and stoned--events which produced physical wounds? If he was not healed right away ("Hey, didn't we just bet the fire out of that guy? How come he stopped bleeding?"), then it was God's will for him to hurt with a physical problem for awhile.

God healed Paul everytime! God's will is to heal!

Then you agree that God uses sickness to teach us. In that case, immediate healing is not God's will--otherwise how would we learn?

It is still not his desire for us to be sick!

 

[awaken]

And they all had Strong's exhaustive Concordance to look up the word "thorn" in all those big bulky scrolls that all the OT books were written. It would have been nicer to have a laptop, but mud huts do have their limitations.

THey memorized scripture back then...
YOu can deny the context all you want...but it is there. Explained througout the scriptures! OT and NT!!

In my reading thorns usually refer to "thorns" just as bramble does.
Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

What is further evidence? That thorn means thorn and bramble means bramble? I hardly think so? You would fit in well with Origen and Augustine. Origen was the one who invented the allegorical method of interpreting the Bible, and Augustine popularized. That is what you are doing. Origen was a heretic, and Augustine, one of the founders of the RCC. Do you usually follow such men in your theology?

Again with the personal attacks! I have always been told that when someone cannot back up their beliefs in scripture they we retort to personal attacks!

Pay attention to that. We apostles SUFFER. Suffer means suffer. It included suffering from persecution, suffering from sickness, suffering from all kinds of things.

Show me sickness in their life that was not healed! Death does not count...all are appointed to die!

No, Paul was talking about "suffering," an all inclusive word that results from pain inflicted upon a person whether from persecution, inclement whether, illnesses and sickness, etc. Suffering is suffering.
The Bible rightly says: "Thou shalt not suffer a fool."

But the "thorn" was not sickness!

Through the Book of Job we learn that the messenger of Satan is God allowing Satan to send an affliction, as he did on Job, on Paul. Paul then concludes: Therefore I will gladly glory in my afflictions, infirmities, etc.
For when I am weak then I am strong.
He was obviously referring to a physical infirmity, a weakness, a sickness that God would not heal in order to keep him humble.

YOu are assuming it was sickness! It is not there in scriptures! It is clear it was a messenger of satan!

No, we don't all face persecution. I doubt if you face persecution or even know what it is. You didn't read my link. You don't know what goes on in this world. You really don't know what persecution is. No one has come and burned your home, threatened your life, stoned you as they did Stephen or Paul. What persecution have you faced? Give me a break!

You are contradicting yourself again..first you say we all suffer persecution..now you say I do not! No wonder I get confused on what you really believe!!

God did not tell Ananias that Paul would be the only one to suffer persecution.
All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

See now you are saying we all suffer persecution?? Observe the contradictions in bold and underlined. First you say we all suffer persecution..then you say we don't..I don't..then the very next statement is that we ALL suffer persecution!

I never said Paul was the ONLY ONE TO SUFFER! You add words that I do not say!

 

[awaken]

"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."" (John 14:9-10)
Think again about what it means... It means that when we see Jesus doing things in the Bible, those things are God's will.

"A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean." Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy." (Matthew 8:2-3)
Think about this: Was Jesus willing to heal back then? Yes! Therefore, it was God's will for people to be healed back then. But is Jesus still willing for us to be healed today? Yes! Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
He was the Healer back then, and He is still the Healer today. Jesus does the will of God the Father, so healing and health are God's will for us. Sometimes a healing might happen instantly, and sometimes you will need to exercise patience until you see the healing, and sometimes you might not receive healing at all for one reason or another.

THis is where I stand on this issue! Nothing that has been brought up on this thread has changed my view!
As I stated earlier...Jesus healed everyone who wanted healing, which shows that healing and health are God's will for everyone. There's not a single case in the New Testament where anyone who wanted divine healing did not receive it, and there's not a single case where a person was told that his sickness was for the purpose of building character in him, and there's not a single case where sickness was called a "blessing," and there's not a single case where a sick person who wanted healing was left unhealed for any reason (this includes Lazarus, because Jesus resurrected him back to life and health),and there's not a single case where a person was told that it was not God's will for him to be healed, and there's not a single case where Jesus said that sickness glorifies God (it's healing that glorifies God), and there's not a single case where Jesus said that God had put sickness on someone to punish him or to chastise him, and there's not a single case where Jesus told people to be patient in sickness, and so on.

This is where I stand...now I will leave the rest of you to debate this issue!

 

[John of Japan]

You seem to forget that I have already agreed that God heals in different ways!
He heals in many ways! I have never said it was just miraculous! He is our healer!

So you agree that healing is not always miraculous. This is a tacit admission that it is sometimes God's will for a person to be sick. If I am sick with cancer, and am undergoing treatment for that, it may take a long time. Mrs. Takasugi in our church was healed of her cancer, but she was sick for months. Since she was not miraculously healed, but was healed through medicine, then it was God's will for her to be sick for awhile.

You sure do assume alot!

So prove me wrong. What Greek lexicon do you use? (Strong's is only a dictionary with glosses, not a real lexicon.) What is your Greek grammar? Where did you get your Greek training? I would be happy to take back my considered opinion if you will tell me these things.

I do not think sickness is a blessing! God wants to bless his children! The Word does not teach that God want us sick.

See the above. You must logically admit that it is God's will for us to be sick for awhile if it is His will to heal us with medicine.

Sickness is always a curse in the OT...think about that!

Baloney. This ignores the case of Hezekiah, the boy Elijah raised, and many who were sick in the OT. Such a sweeping statement without evidence shows how shallow your knowledge of Scripture is.

God healed Paul everytime! God's will is to heal!

Huh? When did Paul say that God had healed him? When did Paul say he was sick, even, if you deny that his thorn in the flesh was sickness and you deny that the Gal. passage indicated sickness?

It is still not his desire for us to be sick!

See above. If God heals us through medicine, it is His will for us to be sick until the medicine cures us.

 

[DHK]

THey memorized scripture back then...
YOu can deny the context all you want...but it is there. Explained througout the scriptures! OT and NT!!

They didn't have the NT, thus the necessity of tongues, interpretation thereof, prophecy and revelatory knowledge, as well as the other sign gifts.

Can you document any of the Hebrews who had the entire OT memorized.
You have weak arguments and a lot of wishful thinking.

Again with the personal attacks! I have always been told that when someone cannot back up their beliefs in scripture they we retort to personal attacks!

Because I tell you the truth it hurts??
You have been allegorizing Scripture. A thorn is a thorn. So it is in the OT.
I see no need to allegorize the majority of Scripture to get your meanings out of them. I tell you the truth. The method of allegroization came from the heretic Origen (even the RCC declared him a heretic), and popularized by Augustine. That is the camp you fall into when you follow that type of interpretation instead of taking the Bible literally as it should be.

Show me sickness in their life that was not healed! Death does not count...all are appointed to die!

I told you the meaning of "suffer" which includes sickness. Paul himself mentions individuals that were sick and eventually recovered. But they were sick. Pardon me saying so, but do you realize you made one of the dumbest statements ever. It makes me laugh. :laugh:

We all have sickness. We all recover. We all die. If we didn't recover we would die, wouldn't we? That is a no-brainer.
There is only the odd "condition" such as blindness, being lame, and Paul's eyesight that were chronic. But when people got "sick" they also got "well." It is pure common sense.

But the "thorn" was not sickness!

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Verse nine states that it is an infirmity which some others translate as weakness. Infirmity is basically a sickness or condition such as "weakened eyesight"

YOu are assuming it was sickness! It is not there in scriptures! It is

clear it was a messenger of satan!
Paul calls it an infirmity, a weakness. The Scriptures are clear.

You are contradicting yourself again..first you say we all suffer persecution..now you say I do not! No wonder I get confused on what you really believe!!

I never said we all suffer persecution. Most who call themselves Christians don't suffer anything at all. Do you suffer persecution? I doubt it. When was the last time your life was threatened because you were living for Christ?
NO. The Bible says that The Godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution.
Not all suffer persecution. But all who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. There is a difference.
However spirituality is never, never, connected with tongues;
but carnality is.

See now you are saying we all suffer persecution?? Observe the contradictions in bold and underlined. First you say we all suffer persecution..then you say we don't..I don't..then the very next statement is that we ALL suffer persecution!

Read again my exact words:

God did not tell Ananias that Paul would be the only one to suffer persecution.
All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Do you live a Godly life in Christ Jesus?
Yes or no?
If you are not suffering persecution then perhaps your life is not as Godly as you perceive it to be.

 

[awaken]

So you agree that healing is not always miraculous. This is a tacit admission that it is sometimes God's will for a person to be sick. If I am sick with cancer, and am undergoing treatment for that, it may take a long time. Mrs. Takasugi in our church was healed of her cancer, but she was sick for months. Since she was not miraculously healed, but was healed through medicine, then it was God's will for her to be sick for awhile.

Why does it have to be God's will for her to be sick? What is wrong with saying the sickness is not from God...God is the healer! We are going to get sick living in this world...our bodies will decay and die! But that was not God's will from the beginning! Man brought it (death) all on himself by sin! Sin and sickness is a part of living in this world! But God is still the healer! Yesterday, today and tomorrow!

So prove me wrong. What Greek lexicon do you use? (Strong's is only a dictionary with glosses, not a real lexicon.) What is your Greek grammar? Where did you get your Greek training? I would be happy to take back my considered opinion if you will tell me these things.

Maybe you should have asked these things before you assumed!! I have a Bible software that has several dictionaries/commentaries/references/Greek and Hebrew. Did I go to school...NO! I pray a lot in the spirit...and the HS leads me and teaches me! Before you go crazy on me..God has taught me alot through others, but the HS is always there to guide me to all truth!

See the above. You must logically admit that it is God's will for us to be sick for awhile if it is His will to heal us with medicine.

Maybe he allows us to go the medicine way because we do not believe his way! John, I do not limit God! My own pastor (that believes the same as I do) had cancer, was operated on, went through chemo..he is healed today! I am not against doctors and medicine! I am against God being the one that puts the sickness on us! My father is not that cruel! Everytime in the OT..sickness is a curse!

Baloney. This ignores the case of Hezekiah, the boy Elijah raised, and many who were sick in the OT. Such a sweeping statement without evidence shows how shallow your knowledge of Scripture is.

I will show you proof in scriptures! That I can do!

Huh? When did Paul say that God had healed him? When did Paul say he was sick, even, if you deny that his thorn in the flesh was sickness and you deny that the Gal. passage indicated sickness?

Did not say sickness. He was beaten to death, remember? He walked back into a town within 24 hour of that beating, didn't he? So who healed him of this beating?

See above. If God heals us through medicine, it is His will for us to be sick until the medicine cures us.

IF you want to believe that God puts sickness on his children..go ahead! I believe good things about my Father and he wants good things for me. Do I get sick, yes! But it is not from God! It is living in a world that is fallen! A world where satan is always attacking! A world where God allows you to abuse your body...and you reap the consequences!
My Father gave His Son to die on the cross..His Spirit to help us overcome here on earth! What a price! What a gift!
My mother died of cancer! I do not tell people God gave cancer to my mother!

 

[awaken]

They didn't have the NT, thus the necessity of tongues, interpretation thereof, prophecy and revelatory knowledge, as well as the other sign gifts.

Can you document any of the Hebrews who had the entire OT memorized.
You have weak arguments and a lot of wishful thinking.

You are getting impossible to debate with! Will you go back and read the post! When you do not read the post...you confuse and misrepresent what I say.

I gave OT scriptures to show what they would know about a "thorn in the flesh"...why would Paul refer to it as a "thorn in the flesh"..He knew the OT backwards and forwards. Why didn't he just say sickness if it was a sickness? In context...and also in the OT references the "thorn in the flesh" is not referring to sickness!

Because I tell you the truth it hurts??

You can tell the truth about the WORD without getting personal! READ the rules! Are you trying to hurt me, is that your motive?

You have been allegorizing Scripture. A thorn is a thorn. So it is in the OT.

The OT scriptures I gave show what it means...study some more!

I see no need to allegorize the majority of Scripture to get your meanings out of them. I tell you the truth. The method of allegroization came from the heretic Origen (even the RCC declared him a heretic), and popularized by Augustine. That is the camp you fall into when you follow that type of interpretation instead of taking the Bible literally as it should be.

Think about this. Would you take a few jigsaw puzzle pieces and put them together and then claim that you can see the full picture with just those few pieces? Of course not! In order to see the full picture, you need to properly fit together all of the puzzle pieces. In the same way, if we're studying a doctrine (such as thorn in the flesh or healling) but we only look at a few passages of Scripture, then we're not seeing the full picture of that doctrine. This means that our views about that doctrine might be totally wrong!

I told you the meaning of "suffer" which includes sickness. Paul himself mentions individuals that were sick and eventually recovered. But they were sick. Pardon me saying so, but do you realize you made one of the dumbest statements ever. It makes me laugh. :laugh:

I would say I am glad that makes you happy...but it really is sad what you said you are laughing at!
You still did not or can not give me a scripture of an example of what you claim. Ony your opionion!

We all have sickness. We all recover. We all die. If we didn't recover we would die, wouldn't we? That is a no-brainer.
There is only the odd "condition" such as blindness, being lame, and Paul's eyesight that were chronic. But when people got "sick" they also got "well." It is pure common sense.

You are getting there!

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Verse nine states that it is an infirmity which some others translate as weakness. Infirmity is basically a sickness or condition such as "weakened eyesight"
clear it was a messenger of satan!
Paul calls it an infirmity, a weakness. The Scriptures are clear.

Yes! the scriptures are clear! Your interpretations are not!

I never said we all suffer persecution. Most who call themselves Christians don't suffer anything at all. Do you suffer persecution? I doubt it. When was the last time your life was threatened because you were living for Christ?
NO. The Bible says that The Godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution.
Not all suffer persecution. But all who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. There is a difference.
However spirituality is never, never, connected with tongues;
but carnality is.

Here we go with tongues again! Can you just get passed that! You seem to get off topic on every thread by bringing up tongues...WE ARE DISCUSSING PERSECUTIONS!
Go back and read your post! You contradict yourself just like I pointed out!

Read again my exact words:

God did not tell Ananias that Paul would be the only one to suffer persecution.
All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Do you live a Godly life in Christ Jesus?
Yes or no?
If you are not suffering persecution then perhaps your life is not as Godly as you perceive it to be.

Here we go with a personal agenda!
I will not answer anymore post with your personal agenda toward me! STICK TO SCRIPTURES!

 

[DHK]

Here we go with a personal agenda!
I will not answer anymore post with your personal agenda toward me! STICK TO SCRIPTURES!

I do stick to the Scriptures. If you take it personally then so be it.
Here are the facts.

First of all you don't read any of the links and the information of the post and remain ignorant of what goes on in this world, and thus don't know what persecution is. Let me describe it for you.

A 14 year old Christian girl, illiterate, having Down's syndrome, with an intellectual level of an eleven year old was accused under the Blasphemy Law of Pakistan of Blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammed. This carries a life time sentence or the death penalty.

The Muslims became so enraged that a mob of 5,000 angry Muslims, led by a fanatical Muslim cleric attacked a Christian village (where she came from) set homes on fire, destroyed churches, bibles, and ransacked the village.

After some time, when guilty consciences could no longer keep quiet, it came to be known that the poor girl had been framed. It was the Muslim cleric himself that had burned pages of the Koran and had put them in the garbage of the girl and then accused her of Blasphemy.

What happens. The Muslim cleric is taken to jail, but gets out free on bail. If it were not for the intervention of other nations (as this story garnered international attention), this girl would have been killed anyway. The emotions were too high for even an innocent person to go free. She was taken away by helicopter to an undisclosed location where she still fears for her life. If they find her they will kill her though she has done nothing wrong. She is 14, illiterate, and has Down's syndrome. How could she have possibly been guilty of the crime that she was accused of?

That is suffering for Christ's sake. That is what Christians suffer.
Have you been persecuted? Do you know what it means to be persecuted for Christ's sake. The Bible gives us some idea in Acts 8:1-3.

But here is your idea, when the Bible says:
All who live godly will suffer in Christ Jesus.

The Charismatics believe that the godly are those that speak in tongues. Paul maintains that this is the least important of all the gifts and in some cases it was being used in a carnal way. He maintains that five words in his own language which people could understand were better than 10,000 words in tongues where people could not understand. It was carnal. It was not a mark of spirituality.

The mark of a godly Christian was one would suffer for Christ. I dedicated an entire post full of Scripture for just that purpose, linking salvation to suffering.

The last command of Christ is the Great Commission. and therefore, the most important command that Christ gave.
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
You don't have to go overseas to do that. You live in Arkansas.
You don't have to go very far to reach Mexico. Go and preach there. If you do so with any amount of zeal, you will suffer persecution. There are mission fields all around you. Have you gone to any of the reservations, and tried to reach the native Americans for Christ. That is another mission field. Do you live in a large city that has a "red light" zone as they are referred to; the place where the prostitutes, the drug addicts, the alcoholics, and the homeless are? Do you have a ministry there? There are many mission fields. Go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do; do it with all thy might.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[awaken]

I do stick to the Scriptures. If you take it personally then so be it.
Here are the facts.

First of all you don't read any of the links and the information of the post and remain ignorant of what goes on in this world, and thus don't know what persecution is. Let me describe it for you.

A 14 year old Christian girl, illiterate, having Down's syndrome, with an intellectual level of an eleven year old was accused under the Blasphemy Law of Pakistan of Blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammed. This carries a life time sentence or the death penalty.

The Muslims became so enraged that a mob of 5,000 angry Muslims, led by a fanatical Muslim cleric attacked a Christian village (where she came from) set homes on fire, destroyed churches, bibles, and ransacked the village.

After some time, when guilty consciences could no longer keep quiet, it came to be known that the poor girl had been framed. It was the Muslim cleric himself that had burned pages of the Koran and had put them in the garbage of the girl and then accused her of Blasphemy.

What happens. The Muslim cleric is taken to jail, but gets out free on bail. If it were not for the intervention of other nations (as this story garnered international attention), this girl would have been killed anyway. The emotions were too high for even an innocent person to go free. She was taken away by helicopter to an undisclosed location where she still fears for her life. If they find her they will kill her though she has done nothing wrong. She is 14, illiterate, and has Down's syndrome. How could she have possibly been guilty of the crime that she was accused of?

That is suffering for Christ's sake. That is what Christians suffer.
Have you been persecuted? Do you know what it means to be persecuted for Christ's sake. The Bible gives us some idea in Acts 8:1-3.

But here is your idea, when the Bible says:
All who live godly will suffer in Christ Jesus.

The Charismatics believe that the godly are those that speak in tongues. Paul maintains that this is the least important of all the gifts and in some cases it was being used in a carnal way. He maintains that five words in his own language which people could understand were better than 10,000 words in tongues where people could not understand. It was carnal. It was not a mark of spirituality.
The mark of a godly Christian was one would suffer for Christ. I dedicated an entire post full of Scripture for just that purpose, linking salvation to suffering.

The last command of Christ is the Great Commission. and therefore, the most important command that Christ gave.
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
You don't have to go overseas to do that. You live in Arkansas.
You don't have to go very far to reach Mexico. Go and preach there. If you do so with any amount of zeal, you will suffer persecution. There are mission fields all around you. Have you gone to any of the reservations, and tried to reach the native Americans for Christ. That is another mission field. Do you live in a large city that has a "red light" zone as they are referred to; the place where the prostitutes, the drug addicts, the alcoholics, and the homeless are? Do you have a ministry there? There are many mission fields. Go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do; do it with all thy might.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

The post underlined I do not agree with and have made several post showing where I stand on it!
Nowhere in any of my post have I said that those that speak in tongues are more godly!

Again, your debates with me have become too personal! I will debate scriptures but not personal attacks! If you want to ask me if I believe something that is one thing...but to put up with you posting what I believe when I never said that is another!