Featured What does Baptist mean now?

Same problem, pouring doctrine into the text!!

 

Not really the topic of this thread, but...

Actually the word "eis" means "to", not "for." but I don't know that it changes the meaning too much "to salvation." (KJV has it this way) Anyway even your view could accomate either reading, because you are simpy saying they were chosen for salvation, Or "to be saved" THOUGH FAITH. correct.

Another issue is What does it mean that they were chosen "from the beginning"? the beginning of what?

 

Not Church...

Rick...what you described sounds like a Dave Ramsey seminar at the convention center...Not a Bible-Believing, Bible Preaching Church....I'd be looking to move on if that kind of stuff started happening at my church. I'm not saying there is no place for it in church in our day and time....but make it something optional that people sign up for and hold it in a classroom. Keep the pulpit for REAL preaching and keep that preaching Biblical and spiritual in content. IMHO:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:type:

 

Wrong- Calvinism can be supported by Scripture and debated from Scripture alone. The other issue cannot.

 

End result the same. Splitting churches.

 

How well do I know that to be true!!

I'll try to give you the Reader's Digest version of what I personally experienced very early in my Christian life.

Let me set the stage for you: I was saved at an off-base IFB ch in 1966, while stationed at Davis-Monthan AFB right ouside Tucson AZ. Less than a year later I was reassigned to Ramstein AB in what was then called West Germany.

Having never been reared in a Bible-preaching/teaching environment to begin with, at age 20 all this "IFB world" was something radically new to me. At that point, I knew very little about how/why IFB "things" were the way(s) they were. Even the IFB church where I'd 1st heard the gospel, trusted Christ & was baptized wasn't much help in starting me off as a babe in Christ since 95% of its members were retired folks--most of whom already had years of experience in what one ought to expect as one of God's kids, but only 2-3 made any attempt at all in helping the 1-2 people there to grasp much in the ways of practical Christian living.

When I arrived at Ramstein, God eventually led me to find a very, very small IFB mission to the GIs in the Ramstein-Landstuhl vicinity.
The mission operated under the authority of another IFB autonomous church about 75 miles away.The mission pastor was a single GI about 2 yrs older than me stationed at a base close to its mother church, but he could only be present "on the mission field" on weekends.

For the mission's midweek Bible study we had what I'd guess today would be called a "small/house group meeting" that was held/hosted by a man who had been a born-again Christian probably longer than anyone else in the mission. This scenario continued on for probably a year, and, to his credit, I'd say that his devotional studies helped me to understand better some milk of the Word that I'd not learned before.

OTOH, by the time that a year had passed, the mission's pastor had been released from Active Duty, went back to his stateside home, got married, and came back to the Landstuhl area with the idea that, once he and his new bride got settled such that they'd secured an "'upstairs apartment' on the 'economy,'" i.e., somewhere outside of a US military base, and a fairly steady civil service-type job, he not only proceeded (as pastor) to take over the mid-week service himself, but also to begin proceedings for the mission to organize itself into an autonomous local church.

Well, apparently that man who'd been hosting the mission's mid-week services in the past somehow saw what the much younger in chronological and/or spiritual age mission pastor's actions on these (and probably other minor things) as a sort of threat to that man's own "following" that'd developed over the time period that he was the sole go-to person who'd lived much closer to the mission's congregation.

I won't say that I never had any disagreements with the mission's pastor over some minor issues or (in retrospect) that he may have made some mistakes in handling some things, but then who among us hasn't?

One thing the military taught me was that, even if you can't see eye-to-eye with an action or decision someone higher up in your chain of command has taken: 1) You may not have or know all information/facts that he does; and 2) You need to respect his position of authority and, to the best of your ability, act in accordance with his wishes because, like him personally or not, he's still over you.

As time progressed, the battle lines were more clearly set. Those of us who supported the mission's pastor realized that if we were to make any progress in becoming an autonomous BC, our very small body (probably no more than a dozen or so at the most) would have to be in one accord with God and one other.

Then, one Wednesday night, THE business meeting occurred: That man and about 2/3d's of the mission's members that he'd persuaded to follow him chose to withdraw from the mission's membership.

When you do the math, 2/3d's of 12 = 9, thus leaving the mission pastor, his wife & me (& maybe 1-2 others who occasionally came) as the ones who were left.

OTOH, those few of us that remained were, in fact, in one accord with the mission's pastor & for the next few months there was a sweet presence of the HS in our meetings that hadn't been there for several months prior!

So, yes, even though that event occurred over 40+ years ago, I still remember what happened then---and even though I've served under 6 pastors/elders since then, God has taught me to love and respect, and most importantly to uphold all them and their families in prayer, if for no other reason than to comply with God's Word where in Hebrews 13:17 the HS tells us to, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: FOR THEY WATCH FOR YOUR SOULS (emp. mine), as they must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
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Lord, right now I want to lift up not only the ones You've given me to privilege to be my pastors/elders, but for all of those faithful men throughout the world that are serving/sacrificing to fulfill what Jesus told His sheep to do. Be with their wives and families. Strengthen and encourage them as they face the struggles and testings that they all face. They're Your servants. Help them all to remain faithful to You and Your Word.

In Jesus' Name. Amen.

 

Saved thru the work of the holy Spirit on our behalf, which results in us placing faith in Jesus and getting saved!

God elects, Jesus died for our sins, Spirit quickens us, we place faith in jesus!

 

I submit that KJVO can be supported by Scripture, and debated from Scripture alone, at least as much as Calvinism can.


My church recently lost many brothers and sisters in Christ because we had a SS teacher teaching Calvinism without our pastor knowing it. It caused major problems and many families leaving our church before it was taken care of. One person left our SS class just last week because he is a Calvinist, and didn't want to "associate" with non-Calvinists! To me, Calvinism is much worse than KJVO. But that's my opinion and experience.

 

Once more into the Briar Patch

1) The purpose of choosing the person was for salvation. The phrase for salvation tells us the purpose of the choice.
Translations that use "to" rather than "for" use a different understanding of the word usage. You can find internet sites that explain the various ways eis is used including "for" as in purpose.

2) "to be saved" violates the syntax, the word is not in verb form, and therefore the "through clause" applies to choice, not saved.

3) "from the beginning" means since or after the beginning. It cannot mean before creation. "apo" means out of, and you cannot come out of something before the something was created. Now to what does "beginning" refer? Some say it refers to the creation week, and there are certainly several places in scripture where beginning does indeed refer to the creation week. But beginning can refer to other beginnings. I believe it refers to the beginning of the New Covenant because no one was set aside in Christ (sanctification by the Spirit) before the inauguration of the New Covenant. Also it seems unlikely we had faith in the truth before the mystery of Christ had been revealed.

Bottom line, Calvinism must rewrite this verse to avoid the obvious, scripture teaches election is conditional, i.e. through faith in the truth.

 

God Bless You..

Excellent Brother....Excellent...that blessed my heart. Thank you for sharing that and thank you for your service for our Lord and our country.

Bro.Greg:thumbsup:

 

Yep!

Ditto that B4L...Calvinism is, in my opinion, a far more divisive issue...although I am absolutely sure there are many that would disagree.

Bro.Greg

 

The problem there isn't Calvinism. The problem there is a refusal (on both sides) to be willing to keep the "main thing the main thing."

 

Where's ZAAC when you need him??

 

Highjacked? Lets back up. The name of Baptists has been tarnished by folks espousing mistaken doctrine. Check. Doctrine not actually found in scripture but poured in to support man-made doctrine? Check. So what are these doctrines that divide the body and give us a bad name?

1) KJVO?

2) Women in spiritual authority?

3) Loss of salvation?

4) Limited Atonement?

5) Refusing to adorn the gospel with contemporary cultural relevance?

 

Number 5 above is alive.

 

So if I was chosen from the beginning of the New Covenant...that was 2,000 years ago! I didn't have faith in the truth then...If this verse has any application to me, then what does "from the beginning" mean? Was I chosen from the beginning of my faith? O was I chosen "set aside in Christ" 2,000 years ago (ie, before My faith entered the picture)?

It seems there is a problem tying together "chosen through faith" with "chosen from the beginning".

 

Not Quite

Apo means out of and so from the beginning refers to any time after or since the beginning. It does not mean during the beginning or at the beginning but from the beginning to the end of the time for choosing. Thus, if you were chosen during your lifetime, after you had lived without mercy, through faith in the truth, that would be totally consistent with all scripture, assuming the election in Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election rather than individual.

Therefore, while my view may be mistaken, for I am no prophet, it is consistent with all scripture, whereas neither Calvinism nor Arminianism fit the bill.

 

Let's call it "Vanism"!:laugh:

 

or non biblical!