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Constantine's Vision

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by zara, Oct 25, 2012.

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  1. zara

    zara New Member

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    How could Constantine The Great's Vision from GOD at Saxa Rubra be "chi-rho" when he and his army spoke Latin???

    zara     ...:smilewinkgrin:
     
    #1 zara, Oct 25, 2012
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    You will have to explain to me just what you are asking....what is "chi-rho"?
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I just pinged Matt Black, BB's resident Constantine Historian....he is that because he tracks his pedigree back thru time to being related. Thats cause he is British & you know those people! :rolleyes: :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #3 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Cheers! The 'chi-rho' symbol (roughly similar to a Roman alphabet 'P' overlaying an 'X') would have been intelligible to Constantine and many of his men, despite its Greek origins, if it was used at all* because Constantine came from the eastern part of the Empire where Greek was the dominant language, and many of his officers, despite maybe being native Latin speakers, would have received some kind of education in classical Greek.

    *I say this because we only have Eusebius' (later) account that the 'chi-rho' symbol was used; the more contemporary Lactantius describes it more as a simple stauragram ie: a cross-shape with the top elongated into a Roman alphabet 'P'.
     
    #4 Matt Black, Oct 25, 2012
  5. zara

    zara New Member

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    The Symbol from GOD

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity

    .. Eusebius of Caesarea and other Christian sources record that Constantine experienced a dramatic event in 312 at the Battle of Milvian Bridge, after which Constantine claimed the emperorship in the West. According to these sources, Constantine looked up to the sun before the battle and saw a cross of light above it, and with it the Greek words "Ἐν Τούτῳ Νίκα" ("by this, win!", often rendered in the Latin "in hoc signo vinces"). Constantine commanded his troops to adorn their shields with a Christian symbol (the Chi-Rho), and thereafter they were victorious.

    ...........................................[​IMG]


    .....................................[​IMG]
    ............................................................................Constantine's Vision
    zara
     
    #5 zara, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2012
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, an old Connie is my 55th great-grandfather. The family's gone down in its status since then of course!
     
    #6 Matt Black, Oct 25, 2012
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Again, for my own edification ole "C" was half Welsh on his Mommas side & there were many different types of Mercenaries fighting in his army including Welsh tribes. right!
     
    #7 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes, 'Old King Cole' was supposedly his maternal grandfather.
     
    #8 Matt Black, Oct 25, 2012
  9. zara

    zara New Member

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    Are you saying that the symbol was in Welsh?? .....:smilewinkgrin:

    Constantine and his father matured as Emperors and Military Commanders in York (Eboracum) England. His English Army voted him to be "Caesar" in 306 AD ish and made it stick by GOD's "Sign" throughout the Roman Empire.

    zara ...
     
    #9 zara, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2012
  10. zara

    zara New Member

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    Close, but no cigar;
    Eutropius was his grandfather.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantius_ChlorusEarly
    Early career
    Born in Dardania,[6] the Historia Augusta claimed Constantius was the son of Eutropius, a noble from northern Dardania, in the province of Moesia Superior, and Claudia, a niece of the emperors Claudius II and Quintillus.[7] Modern historians suspect this maternal connection to be a genealogical fabrication created by his son Constantine I,[8] and that his family were of humble origins.[2] His father, however, might have been the brother of Eutropia, wife of Maximian.

    zara
     
    #10 zara, Oct 25, 2012
  11. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Flavius Eutropius was his father's father, Coel his mother's father.

    I'll keep the cigar and smoke it, thanks!
     
    #11 Matt Black, Oct 25, 2012
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    A Welsh Succession of Primitive Baptist Faith and Practice

    By
    Elder Michael N. Ivey

    The first Christian emperor was a Welshman. Though of Roman descent, Constantine was also Welsh. His mother was Helena the daughter of Coelgodebog Earl of Glouchester, his father Constantius, the Roman ruler of Britain. As a youth, Constantine resided in Wales, where his mother instructed him in the ways of Christ. Concerning Helena's dedication to Christ, Cathcart rote, "She was a devoted Christian, and there is some reason for supposing that she exerted and influence over both her husband and son in favor of christians, which prompted them to the toleration of their opinions." Thus, it was by a Welshman that Christianity drew the attention of all the world. However, it is a saying with English historians, and here it very accurately applies; when princes engage in religion they either do to much for it or too much against it.
     
    #12 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
  13. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps returning the OP...;)

    Constantine, being educated, would have known Greek as a formal language. The Chi-Ro, with its obvious origins, would have been two letters he was both familiar with and conversant in.

    It is curious that he chose this sign, or that this sign came to him (I'm dubious as the second,) as the Christian symbol most appropriate would have been the ICHTHYS which was more popular of the Christians. Regardles, I believe the point remains that he, and many in his army, would have known Greek.
     
    #13 preachinjesus, Oct 25, 2012
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And Welsh... LOL!
     
    #14 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
  15. zara

    zara New Member

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    Ole "Coel" is a factious tale in the Brit's Sun Tabloid of that day. She was born in the Province if Moesia and the daughter of an innkeeper. .... So you need to go to Turkey to find your umpteenth grandfather. ..... and still no cigar yet.


    http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/helena.htm
    Helena, mother of Constantine I, called the Great, was born of humble parents in the Roman province of Moesia, a land on the western shore of the Black Sea. Constantine's father, Constantius Chlorus, who had risen to the throne by way of military success, was also a native of that region. According to St. Ambrose, Helena was an inn-keeper when Constantius lifted her from her lowly position and made her his consort. There exists a legend that she was the daughter of a British king, but there is no historical foundation for this. It is, however, true that Constantius spent some time in Britain putting down a rebellion among the Picts and Scots, and died at York, but it is thought that he had cast off Helena and taken a new wife long before this time. On the death of his father, the young Constantine brought his mother to live at court at Byzantium, the capital of the Eastern Empire. He honored her by giving her the Roman title of Augusta and also had coins struck bearing her image.

    zara ......:smilewinkgrin:
     
    #15 zara, Oct 25, 2012
  16. zara

    zara New Member

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    There is no Welsh nor British blood in Constantine. His father was a Roman descendant and his Mother was from the Provence of Moeisia (Turkey).

    zara
     
    #16 zara, Oct 25, 2012
  17. zara

    zara New Member

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    IMHO, Chi-Rho came from Eusebius who read/wrote greek. When Byzantium converted to Greek from latin, they changed the symbol as well as it's meaning. My guess is that the symbol meant the "Good Shepherd" from the likeness of the shepherd's crook of the upright and the cross laying defeated on the ground.

    Constantine didn't choose the sign, God did. ...ICHTHYS ..Is a fish symbol and I don't believe to used until after the sixth century in Britain??

    I must disagree here, Latin or british Keltic were spoken by he and his "English" Army. During his early adolescent years his mother, Helena, was exiled to Trier and had little influence on Constantine's language.

    zara
     
    #17 zara, Oct 25, 2012
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Prove it .... and as a side note....I sincerely hope you are right. I really dont want to claim that mess as kin.

    As a side note# 2: I never pay attention to anything a RC source (EWTN) tells me.....they always manipulate the truth.
     
    #18 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2012
  19. zara

    zara New Member

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    The fiction of British roots of Constantine and Helena has long been discredited by many other than RC as I say above. Constantine is the protectorate of Christianity and founder just below Jesus and along side Paul.

    The Brit's should be very proud.

    zara
     
    #19 zara, Oct 25, 2012
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  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Your kidding me right! In many many ways ole Connie destroyed everything that Christianity stood for & used Christianity as a mechanism to empire build without teaching anything that "True Christianity" was. If you cant see that, you are deluding yourself.
     
    #20 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 25, 2012
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