Confusing worship and evangelism

[Luke2427]

Though I agree that we must be students of both worlds- earthly and heavenly, I don’t think that means molding our worship services to appeal to the culture. We need to know the culture so we can communicate to it- not so we can mold any part of our worship to it. Worship is about God- it is not a form of evangelism.


Worship should be lofty, awe inspiring, transcendent and reverential- because God deserves and requires that his creatures approach him this way. “God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be held in reverence by all those around Him” (Psalm 89:7).

Though worship may indeed evangelize, the goal of worship is not to evangelize. The goal of evangelism is to evangelize and the goal of worship is to worship. We must keep them separate. Let us be ever developing our methods of evangelism to impact the culture in which we live, but let us not pluck the worship of God from its lofty perch. Though primary methods of evangelism may change from servant evangelism in one age to camp meetings in another, worship should steadfastly remain in every age reverential, lofty and transcendent. It is probably laziness and ignorance that drives the modern church to seek to kill two birds with one stone- evangelize and worship at the same time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree..particularly your last comment.

 

[Aaron]

Worship should be . . . awe inspiring . . . (Psalm 89:7).

Explain . . .

 

[OldRegular]

Though I agree that we must be students of both worlds- earthly and heavenly, I don’t think that means molding our worship services to appeal to the culture. We need to know the culture so we can communicate to it- not so we can mold any part of our worship to it. Worship is about God- it is not a form of evangelism.


Worship should be lofty, awe inspiring, transcendent and reverential- because God deserves and requires that his creatures approach him this way. “God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be held in reverence by all those around Him” (Psalm 89:7).

Though worship may indeed evangelize, the goal of worship is not to evangelize. The goal of evangelism is to evangelize and the goal of worship is to worship. We must keep them separate. Let us be ever developing our methods of evangelism to impact the culture in which we live, but let us not pluck the worship of God from its lofty perch. Though primary methods of evangelism may change from servant evangelism in one age to camp meetings in another, worship should steadfastly remain in every age reverential, lofty and transcendent. It is probably laziness and ignorance that drives the modern church to seek to kill two birds with one stone- evangelize and worship at the same time.

Excellent OP Luke. The Church is the Body of Jesus Christ not a civic organization. I believe that the major problem of the Churches today is that they have left their "first love" in order to appeal to the world. The message of Jesus Christ to the Samaritan woman is just as valid today as it was then!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Excellent OP Luke. The Church is the Body of Jesus Christ not a civic organization. I believe that the major problem of the Churches today is that they have left their "first love" in order to appeal to the world. The message of Jesus Christ to the Samaritan woman is just as valid today as it was then!

what distresses me is the churches position on social issues. Do they feed & take care of orphans & widows? Do they make provision for the destitute? Just came thru a wicked bad Northeaster & there is devastation all around me.....it appears that only the apostate Methodist & RC churches are providing aid & comfort. Why is that & is it our responsibility as Baptist Churches to reach out & lend a hand?

 

[MorseOp]

I agree that "worship is about God." The Church needs to beware of contextualization in regards to worship and culture. However conversions do take place during worship. God has often used the proclamation of the Gospel, during a worship service, to call sinners to repentance. In fact, we should have an attitude of expectation in the life saving power of the Gospel during worship.

 

[Luke2427]

what distresses me is the churches position on social issues. Do they feed & take care of orphans & widows? Do they make provision for the destitute? Just came thru a wicked bad Northeaster & there is devastation all around me.....it appears that only the apostate Methodist & RC churches are providing aid & comfort. Why is that & is it our responsibility as Baptist Churches to reach out & lend a hand?

I think benevolence is important but not as important as worship.

I think getting your hands dirty helping and healing sinners and the suffering is important but not as important as getting your heart humble and mystified before the majesty of God.

 

[MorseOp]

what distresses me is the churches position on social issues. Do they feed & take care of orphans & widows? Do they make provision for the destitute? Just came thru a wicked bad Northeaster & there is devastation all around me.....it appears that only the apostate Methodist & RC churches are providing aid & comfort. Why is that & is it our responsibility as Baptist Churches to reach out & lend a hand?

I just drove home from North Jersey this morning after making sure a family member was taken care of. There are quite a few New Jersey Baptist churches (Hudson, Bergen, Passaic, and Middlesex counties) that are actively engaged in meeting the physical needs of their members and neighbors. I know the pastors. They are doing what they can.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree that "worship is about God." The Church needs to beware of contextualization in regards to worship and culture. However conversions do take place during worship. God has often used the proclamation of the Gospel, during a worship service, to call sinners to repentance. In fact, we should have an attitude of expectation in the life saving power of the Gospel during worship.

I agree- but worship should be the goal of worship services.

 

[MorseOp]

I agree- but worship should be the goal of worship services.

I agree. That has always been my position.

 

[preachinjesus]

It would seem that the idea of worship, which the NT (and OT) writers had in mind is dramatically different than our contemporary expressions.

Worship isn't an event it is a way of being.

It has moments of individual and corporate expression (the second lesser the designs that we see today and more about receiving the faithful teaching) but is ultimately not solely framed in the methods we generally use.

Likewise, evangelism isn't understood in one form or another, but is instead part of a larger picture of ministry and proclamation. Perhaps we can all agree that we westerners have become far too compartmentalized in our efforts to do effective ministry. Worship is only seen by singing and evangelism by preaching. However it seems the nature of both in the NT is not limited to these forms.

To that end our weekly services can have an equally worshipful and evangelistic component to them and be authentic to both tasks. A corporate service can, and should, have aspects of worship and evangelism and both expressions are found in its many uses.

For many westerners who are unfamiliar with the nature of ministry and Christianity, corporate services are good ways of bringing them into the ministry of a church and effective opportunities for hearing and seeing the Gospel among that community. So before we get too down on the predominate form of ministry utilized by almost all churches, perhaps it is best to understand that the NT evidences no direct teaching about this issue and is rather generous.

In NT days (extending to the immediate post-apostolic period) you would never find beleivers gathering in large groups, singing songs and hearing the kerygma and euangelion and considering that worship or evangelism. Instead they saw their lives as a whole work of belief that involved worship, evangelism, and many other components of NT ministry.

 

[OldRegular]

what distresses me is the churches position on social issues. Do they feed & take care of orphans & widows? Do they make provision for the destitute? Just came thru a wicked bad Northeaster & there is devastation all around me.....it appears that only the apostate Methodist & RC churches are providing aid & comfort. Why is that & is it our responsibility as Baptist Churches to reach out & lend a hand?

Some Baptist Churches just tear down their barns and build bigger ones [Luke 12:16-21].

There are 70+ Baptist Churches in the county in which I live.Some are very prosperous; others are not. There are also many old people in the county. It is a fairly popular retirement location for Yankees! I have thought that the churches could combine resources and build retirement homes for some of these people when they are past caring for themselves but??????????????



;

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some Baptist Churches just tear down their barns and build bigger ones [Luke 12:16-21].

There are 70+ Baptist Churches in the county in which I live.Some are very prosperous; others are not. There are also many old people in the county. It is a fairly popular retirement location for Yankees! I have thought that the churches could combine resources and build retirement homes for some of these people when they are past caring for themselves but??????????????

;

You dont know what your talking about. Winter camp for the Yankees is in Tampa Florida. Oh and we have 3 Baptist Churches in my county & they are all Arminians & Dispeys. No DoG Baptists at all(and no barns) :smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

You dont know what your talking about. Winter camp for the Yankees is in Tampa Florida. Oh and we have 3 Baptist Churches in my county & they are all Arminians & Dispeys. No DoG Baptists at all(and no barns) :smilewinkgrin:

I knew you were one of them rich Yankees wintering in Florida? When do you head out? South that is! Probably vote twice also!

Like I always say when rich folks spend money: "Spreads the wealth around!"

Most of the Baptist Churches around here are Arminian and dispensational. Some individuals are DoG and dispensational. How is that for determinism?

 

[12strings]

Worship should be lofty, awe inspiring, transcendent and reverential

So you are advocating lofty, awe-inspring, transendent Electric guitar riffs, correct?

 

[convicted1]

So you are advocating lofty, awe-inspring, transendent Electric guitar riffs, correct?

Hey, just because Brother Luke's "choir director" is Eddie Van Halen, doesn't mean he is going THAT far....:laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

So you are advocating lofty, awe-inspring, transendent Electric guitar riffs, correct?

No more than I think a banjo is appropriate.

Atmosphere is the issue.

I don't think anyone who is objective would try to argue that a banjo playing "Life is Like a Mountain Railroad" creates an atmosphere of awe and majesty.

I also think it is clear that atmosphere is not completely subjective based on different cultures.

Atmosphere is set by many things which communicate universally to our senses- sight, sound, smell, etc...

(Pardon this crude and extreme illustration)- A room with walls spattered with blood and body parts all over the floor, the sound of a revving chain saw screaming in your ears, and the shadow of a mad man swinging a chain saw coming down the hall way toward you creates an atmosphere that the Japanese man experiences very much the same way the American experiences (not identically- but VERY similarly).

There is not a psychologist on earth, I deduce, who would argue otherwise.

There are atmospheres that are universally conducive to fear, joy, sadness, awe, etc...

The Bible is very clear that the space about the throne of God will exude a particular atmosphere- one that is most conducive to the worship of the God who is holy, omnipotent, transcendent, beautiful, etc...

Each week every church should want to have at least one service dedicated primarily, if not exclusively, to worship. That service should seek as much as possible to simulate that atmosphere.

Other services can be devoted primarily to teaching, fellowship, evangelism, etc...

The atmospheres of those services can be very different.

But the one devoted to worship should, as much as possible, be riddled with awe, reverence, majesty and glory.

 

[Luke2427]

I think the thing we are missing is this:

The Bible nowhere says to worship God any way you like. It never says to worship him in a way that suits you- that matches your personality or your likes and dislikes. You don’t worship God based on who you are- you worship him based on who HE is!

 

[12strings]

No more than I think a banjo is appropriate.

I don't think anyone who is objective would try to argue that a banjo playing "Life is Like a Mountain Railroad" creates an atmosphere of awe and majesty.

2 things:

1. Would say it is a sin to use a Banjo in a worship service? If so, how does that fit with your strong opposition to those who would ban all alcohol use because they are forbidding something that scripture does not forbid?

2. Should there not also be celebratory aspects to corporate worship...as in all the "shouting" in the psalms?

 

[MorseOp]

2 things:

1. Would say it is a sin to use a Banjo in a worship service? If so, how does that fit with your strong opposition to those who would ban all alcohol use because they are forbidding something that scripture does not forbid?

2. Should there not also be celebratory aspects to corporate worship...as in all the "shouting" in the psalms?

The Regulative Principle of Worship ("RPW") (what Luke is advocating), much to the chagrin of some in America, can incorporate differing cultural practices. Unless a church is non-instrumental-exclusive psalmody, how can a distinction be made between using a banjo vis-a-vie a guitar? In some parts of Appalachia they play dulcimers. More important than the musical instrument of choice is the content of worship. How has God instructed us to worship? Prayer, reading the Word, confession of sin, singing, and observing the sacraments ("ordinances" for the non-Reformed) are all commanded in worship. The RPW is not only positive commands from the Bible on how to worship, but it consequently it also forbids expressions of worship that are not positively commanded in the Bible.