You've got that right. Dispensationalism has gone off the deep end to the extreme of sensationalist warmongering Christian Zionism that worships the Golden Calf, Israel after the flesh.
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Pole: Who here believes Israel and the Church are one and the same?
- Thread starter Bob Hope
- Start date
You've got that right. Dispensationalism has gone off the deep end to the extreme of sensationalist warmongering Christian Zionism that worships the Golden Calf, Israel after the flesh.
Thanks for making my point. :thumbs:
Bob Hope
Member
And my point is proven once again. Good luck with that.
Failure to distinguish between "THEM" and "the Israel of God"
Salvation is the same whether to Jew or Gentile, bond or free and comes from the same source above but the church and Israel are not one and the same and never will be.
Jerked out of context. In context he is addressing WORKS as a basis of final justification before the law of God (vv. 5-9) and in particular the RELGIOUS WORKS by the jew in contrast to the Gentile without the law as a religious basis or guide (vv. 10-15).
The boast of they are a "Jew" is grounded in their RELIGIOUS BASIS for justification before God over the gentile (vv. 17-22). However, Paul argues that such a basis is hypocritical unless they are truly keeping the WORKS of the Law as demanded by the law (vv. 23-25).
If they are not, then their EXTERNAL RELIGOUS circumcision availeth nothing before God. Thus their boast to be a "Jew" is worthless simply because it is based only upon externals. Thus the true "Jew" is not only one who is EXTERNALLY a Jew but INTERNALLY one as well.
Therefore, the EXTERNAL ONLY Jew is inferior to the regenerated Gentile rather than superior in the day of judgement.
No it does not as salvation existed before either the term Jew or church existed or came into existence. The Jew did not exist until Jacob and Judah. The church did not exist until the first coming of Christ when the foundation was laid and the first officer were set in it.
Circumcision in heart does not make one a Jew or an Israelite. Paul was both an EXTERNAL circumcised Jew with an INTERNAL circumcised heart - hence a true Jew in the fullest expression of the term BOTH externally and internally.
Sigh. We've been through all this before.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1743352#post1743352
You are confusing the SAME SPIRITUAL state of saved Jews, Gentiles, bond, free, male and female with the term Israel and Jew. They are not synonmous!
In these texts Paul is denying any INTERNAL SPIRITUAL difference and is not addressing the Abrahamic promise in regard to ethnic Israel according to election.
Again, you are confusing the INTERNAL SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF SALVATION that is without difference due to external conditions with the Abrahamic promise to ethnic Israel according to election.
Here you are confusing the SAME internal and external qualifications for church membership (v. 27) in the local assemlby. Jews, females, bond entered the membership of the local assembly on the very same basis.
Here you fail to distinguish between "them" and "the Israel of God." Those who walk by this rule include saved gentiles (them) and saved Jews (the Israel of God).
Bob Hope
Member
Who cares about a term. They are all saved to God under the same salavation. They share the same fate. All men will come to God through Christ. You never anwsered my question about Paul either. Is he apart of the church or apart of "Israel"?
Yes, we have and you were not able to prove your point any more at that time than now. The problem you have is context and discerning between things that differ. Neither can you find the term "church" in the longest and best treatise upon God's promise to Abraham in Romans 9-11. But you sure can find Israel/Jews in contrast to SAVED gentiles - Romans 11.
The Author of Scriptures cares about the term as He purposely avoided using it because it would convey a falsehood. Truth cares!
That is my point! Salvation is not synonmous with Israel or church but only with elect.
Paul was a member of the church at Antioch and served through that congregation and reported back to it.
Paul in regard to his own person was both an ethnic Jew and a "spiritual" Jew as he was a born again ethnic Jew, hence a Jew in the FULLEST SENSE of the term.
Bob Hope
Member
You can not prove that and it is clear you can not understand it.
They are are the same.
He was an Israelite saved into the church and he was a convert of judaism. There is no such thing as an ethnic jew. He was part of the body of Christ just like Abraham and just like I am. We are all members of the bride of Christ and we will live together in that Holy City , New Jerusalem. The OT saints referred to this future restoration as Israel future. They are all the same, they are all redeemed the same. We are all brought through the blood of Christ.
I'm sure that's the way you imagine it. I'll say again, the Israel of God of Gal 6:16 must be somehow critical to your theology, you've seemed to have chosen it as a 'hill to die on'.
I'll resume with this question once again:
Are you or are you not saying 'the Israel of God' of Gal 6:16 does not include redeemed, born from above Gentiles, because they lack the proper DNA? Yes or no?
Are you or are you not saying that only redeemed, blood born from above Jews have the proper DNA to be included in 'the Israel of God' of Gal 6:16? Yes or no?
No that does not represent my view but if you would have said the last verse this way it would be:
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon Jacob's ethnic AND spiritual DNA. Gal 6
No 'Gentile DNA' included in the 'Israel of God' of Gal 6:16?
Gill on Gal 6:16:
and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1Co 10:18. The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"; which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh. The Jews themselves own, that strangers, or proselytes, shall be called by the name of Israel; so they {b} explain Isa 44:5, latter part.
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Gal 6:16:
16. as many--contrasting with the "as many," Galatians 6:12.
rule--literally, a straight rule, to detect crookedness; so a rule of life.
peace--from God (Ephesians 2:14-17, 6:23).
mercy--(Romans 15:9).
Israel of God[/U]--not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:9,29, Romans 2:28,29, Philippians 3:3).
Matthew Henry on Gal 6:16:
The blessings which he desires for those who walk according to this rule, or which he gives them the hope and prospect of (for the words may be taken either as a prayer or a promise), are peace and mercy—peace with God and conscience, and all the comforts of this life as far as they are needful for them, and mercy, or an interest in the free love and favour of God in Christ, which are the spring and fountain of all other blessings. A foundation is laid for these in that gracious change which is wrought in them; and while they behave themselves as new creatures, and govern their lives and hopes by the rule of the gospel, they may most assuredly depend upon them. These, he declares, shall be the portion of all the Israel of God, by whom he means all sincere Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, all who are Israelites indeed, who, though they may not be the natural, yet are become the spiritual seed of Abraham; these, being heirs of his faith, are also heirs together with him of the same promise, and consequently entitled to the peace and mercy here spoken of.
and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1Co 10:18. The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"; which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh. The Jews themselves own, that strangers, or proselytes, shall be called by the name of Israel; so they {b} explain Isa 44:5, latter part.
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Gal 6:16:
16. as many--contrasting with the "as many," Galatians 6:12.
rule--literally, a straight rule, to detect crookedness; so a rule of life.
peace--from God (Ephesians 2:14-17, 6:23).
mercy--(Romans 15:9).
Israel of God[/U]--not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:9,29, Romans 2:28,29, Philippians 3:3).
Matthew Henry on Gal 6:16:
The blessings which he desires for those who walk according to this rule, or which he gives them the hope and prospect of (for the words may be taken either as a prayer or a promise), are peace and mercy—peace with God and conscience, and all the comforts of this life as far as they are needful for them, and mercy, or an interest in the free love and favour of God in Christ, which are the spring and fountain of all other blessings. A foundation is laid for these in that gracious change which is wrought in them; and while they behave themselves as new creatures, and govern their lives and hopes by the rule of the gospel, they may most assuredly depend upon them. These, he declares, shall be the portion of all the Israel of God, by whom he means all sincere Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, all who are Israelites indeed, who, though they may not be the natural, yet are become the spiritual seed of Abraham; these, being heirs of his faith, are also heirs together with him of the same promise, and consequently entitled to the peace and mercy here spoken of.
Your problem here is that you quoted only HALF of those he included! It is both! "them" and "the Israel of God."
I am sure you can quote room loads of covenant theologions and commentators for any number of errors one might want to support.