Clear up confusion about tongues!

[The Biblicist]

Again....
The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit completely changes our relationship with God. It isn't the same relationship that existed in the Old Testament.

That is simply wrong! Read Romans 8:8-9. Paul classifies all mankind into two possible categories those (1) "in the flesh" and (2) those "in the Spirit" and ANY MAN not "in the Spirit" is not of His - not a child of God!

Think about it! The human nature has not changed AFTER Pentecost. The SIN problem is the same before and after Pentecost and there is but ONE solution for the sin nature whether BEFORE or AFTER Pentecost. The Same Savior (Jn. 14:6) same salvation (Mt.7:13-14) the same gospel (Acts 10:43; heb. 4:2) and same regeneration/circumcision of the heart existed both before (Jn. 3:3-5) and after Pentecost. The baptism in the Spirit was for a PLURAL "you" that were formerly baptized believers and NEVER an individual experience for anyone at any time. The baptism in the Spirit was a common Old Testament act by God upon a new house of God during its dedication service. Pentecost was a transfer of kingdom administration from the former house of God to the new house of God - the church institution and God's confirming act upon it.

Saints prior to Pentecost were "filled" with the Spirit and walked and prayed "in the Spirit" as neither of these terms are synonoms with the Spirit coming "upon" them either in the Old Testament or New Testament (Acts 8:14-15).

You simply do not know what you are talking about!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have not seen where you post what you actually believe??

I know you are fairly new here.

I have posted on this subject quite a number of times. I have had a lot of experience with what we are discussing here, much of it bad. I have seen the gifts operate in people whom I knew were exercising them genuinely, and I have seen the gifts being used falsely, also.

I had a life-altering experience in the Charismatic movement -- and I don't mean that in a positive way, either.

I am not a cessationist. I am not a Pentecostal or Charismatic. That confuses many, I know.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

While I disagree with Awaken I see no reason to believe he is being deceptive or devious. Such accusations are unnecessary.

But common here. And this is mild.

See, a common tactic here is to attack someone in the most vile way, even resorting to throwing out words like "cultic", blasphemer", "heretic", "apostate", etc., and then when the person attacked gets tired of it and retaliates, he/she gets threatened with infractions. That's a really "Christian" way to defend one's position.

 

[DHK]

I am not a cessationist. I am not a Pentecostal or Charismatic. That confuses many, I know.

This is what Michael believes:

The CAC believes in all the gifts of the Spirit, while not holding to a Pentecostal or Charismatic interpretation of them.

You can find the rest of his beliefs here:

http://www.celtic-anabaptist-ministries.com/principles.html

 

[Michael Wrenn]

This is what Michael believes:

You can find the rest of his beliefs here:

http://www.celtic-anabaptist-ministries.com/principles.html
[/FONT]

Not quite true. The "Personal Beliefs" page contain some of my beliefs.

The Principles are statements that the Communion holds to. Yes, I formulated them, if you will, but they represent a consensus of the communion. Take for example the statement on baptism. My personal view differs somewhat.

We try to allow freedom of conscience on those things which, as Wesley said "do not strike at the root of Christianity." I am the founder and presiding bishop, not a pope.

 

[awaken]

I made my point. Your idea about tongues being the more spiritual superior praying "in the Spirit" makes a ridicule of Christ and his teaching his disciples to pray and his own praying NOT IN THE SPIRIT (as you define the phrase "in the Spirit.").

You must have missed my post that I stated that the Holy Spirit can guide us both ways. I have prayed in the spirit and also prayed in my understanding. The prayer in understanding was Spirit led just as much as praying in tongues. I find that I can pray longer and find a deeper rest in praying in tongues!

News flash! They prayed "IN THE SPIRIT" before Pentecost, in fact, Christ NEVER prayed but "in the Spirit" and NEVER did anything other than "in the Spirit." All the saints and prophets prayed and acted "in the Spirit" BEFORE Pentecost. Your interpretation of "in the Spirit" is plainly and obviously false!

Paul called tongues..."praying with your spirit"...

 

[The Biblicist]

But common here. And this is mild.

See, a common tactic here is to attack someone in the most vile way, even resorting to throwing out words like "cultic", blasphemer", "heretic", "apostate", etc., and then when the person attacked gets tired of it and retaliates, he/she gets threatened with infractions. That's a really "Christian" way to defend one's position.

Mild? Some things are simply true! What you and others don't like is exposure to what you are really saying and doing -truth hurts sometimes.

Now you butt into a conversation that you know nothing about because it gives you opportunity to do the very thing you are complaining about - lash out due to your own martry complex. You prefer to play the martry when a spade is called a spade instead of many times simply facing the fact that you absolutely deserve such rebukes.

Instead of trying to cause more trouble whiy don't you enter the discussion. I have responded to your last post with an exposition of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 but no response from you? Did you see it?

 

[awaken]

I know you are fairly new here.

I have posted on this subject quite a number of times. I have had a lot of experience with what we are discussing here, much of it bad. I have seen the gifts operate in people whom I knew were exercising them genuinely, and I have seen the gifts being used falsely, also.

I had a life-altering experience in the Charismatic movement -- and I don't mean that in a positive way, either.

I am not a cessationist. I am not a Pentecostal or Charismatic. That confuses many, I know.

Interesting? I am not of the Pentecostal and not sure what the Charismatic believe. I was raised Baptist all my life...Missionary Baptist...Now in a SBC. We believe what the Bible says! THe Holy Spirit has control of our services...and they are powerful! He manifest and edifies every service!

 

[The Biblicist]

How many times to I have to type this! Jesus was God! Are you God?

You miss the point entirely! He was asked by his disciples to teach them to pray. He himself was "filled" with the Spirit and did not pray in tongues which you claim is equal to praying "in the Spirit"! John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb and did not perform one miracle and certainly did not pray in tongues. The point is IF as you claim, praying in tongues is the spiritual and superior type of praying then Jesus who had the Spirit without measure NEVER is recorded by any of his observers (Apostles) as ever having even prayed "in the Spirit." Four thousand years of saints never had a spiritual led prayer according to your theory.

Lets look at another one of Pauls letters..
Eph. 6:18 with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,

To show you how biased and subjective your view and interpretation of this passage is let's place along side it what Paul wrote to the Philippians:

Philip 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Here Paul lists several types of praying and none of them tongues proving there are a variety of prayer types. To pray any other way but "in the Spirit" is worthless praying. To preach any way but "in the Spirit" is worthless preaching.

You simply do not understand Paul's usage of "in the Spirit" as he routinely contrasts that phrase with "in the flesh."

 

[The Biblicist]

As DHK correctly stated all such "sign" and revelatory gifts have ceased with the last living christians upon whom the apostles laid their hands and imparted such gifts as that was their ability and "signs of an apostle" (2 Cor. 12:12).

I Corinthians 13:8-13 predicts the cessation of tongues and revelatory gifts. Tongues ceases BEFORE revelatory gifts cease as Israel would reject this "sign" as predicted by Isaiah 28:12 and God would turn to the Gentiles.

8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

In verse 8 there is a grammatical distinction in voice between "fail" and "cease." The Greek word translated "cease" is a middle voice and means it will cease of itself. However, "fail" is passive in voice and means something shall cause it to fail. That something which will cause "prophesy" to "fail" is the subject of verses 9-12.

The implication is that tongues will cease of itself prior to whatever comes and stops prophecy. That is precisely what happened to the gift of tongues. It gradually died out even before the end of the first century.

Prophecy and knowledge are INCOMPLETE when Paul wrote - "WE know in part and WE prophesy in part" and "that which is perfect" (complete) had not come when Paul wrote. "that" is neuter and so it does not refer to the coming of Christ. So what comes to make the "in part" cease is that which is COMPLETE. Hence, by the very contrast the COMPLETE has to do with REVELATION as the "in part" is partial REVELATORY gifts. It must therefore be the COMPLETION of what partial revelatory gifts provide - God's Revealed Word.

In the remaining context, it refers to something that presentlly when Paul wrote was IMMATURE and INCOMPLETE and only possessed "in part" but the "part" would be set aside when MATURITY came. The Maturity had to do with REVELATION and refers to the completed Biblical canon or New Testament which Paul and other apostles were in the process of completing. Thus until it was complete revelatory gifts were essential for the congregations as the Old Testament provided nothing for chuch policy, doctrine and ordinances.

Paul illustrates the arrival of the MATURE revelation that does away with the "in part" immature revelatory gifts with two illustrations. The first illustration has to do with the cessation of tongues simply ceasing of itself while the second illustration with what provided a more mature clearer perception.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Tongues would cease of themselves naturally as a child would naturally stop talking like a child when they mature and begin talking like an adult. Tongues were infantile in that they were never intended to continue as their purpose was specific and limited (I Cor. 14:20-21). Their use in the church was restricted and limited (1 Cor. 14:26-27).

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


The second illustration dealt with what would stop prophesy and knowledge. Remember, now they were "in part." What would stop them is when FULLER revelation arrived that would make them no longer necessary. Their "in part" condition was compared to a brass mirror that allowed the looker to see themselves but with limitations. Such was the case of revelatory gifts as not all Christians possessed such gifts and thus most Christians were dependent upon those gifted men (Acts 13:1) for divine leadership.

Note the contrast of time terms "NOW" versus "THEN". The "NOW" was inclusive of the apostolic time as he includes himself "we" in this "NOW" period. It was the prophetic job of the apostles to finish the Bibical canon as predicted also by Isaiah (Isa. 8:16-18). Jesus told them that the coming of the Holy Spirit would "lead them into ALL TRUTH" (Jn. 16:13) and that the Holy Spirit would "REMIND THEM" of the words Jesus spoke to them and that future Christians would be converted "by their words" (Jn. 17:20). They realized they were producing scriptures (2 Pet. 3:15-17; etc.) and the apostle John realized he was concluding the prophecy of Isaiah 8:16 as he introduced his final scriptures by the final living apostle as "the testimony" of Christ and sealed it (Rev. 22:17-18) as predicted by Isaiah 8:16 and then predicted that the next revelation from God would be the coming of Christ from heaven (Rev. 22:19-20) just as Isaiah also predicted (Isa. 8:18).

However, that time had not come when Paul wrote the Corinthians and they were still "NOW" in the apostolic age where this incomplete revelation was still necessary. However, "then" it would not be necessary as the New Testament Scriptures would provide a "mirror" where one could see himself more plainly (James 1:23-25). With the arrival of the New Testament Scriptures the "in part" revelatory gifts and their accompany confirming signs and wonders (Heb. 2:3-4) would cease to exist.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Paul's stated purpose for chapter 13 was to shew them a "better way" right "now" to guide them in their use of spiritual gifts - the way of love (1 Cor. 12:31).

In lack of completed revelation from God, mature spirituality, and proper use of spirtiual gifts is not determined by the power and performance of spiritual gifts, but MATURE use of God's gifts is determined by abiding principles which are apparent to all his readers - faith, hope and charity. Hence, in lieu of a completed revelation from God spelling out the proper and improper use of spiritual gifts they had abiding principles that could be used "NOW" to discern right and wrong use of such gifts. The greatest of these principles is love and it is love that Paul goes on to use as the principle to guide them in the proper use of such temporary gifts in Chapter 14. The principle of love demands the use of all gifts are for edification of others and self. The principle of love demands order and descency and obedience to the scriptures they do have.

Again I repost my exposition on 1 Cor. 13 and cessation of sign gifts.

 

[awaken]

You miss the point entirely! He was asked by his disciples to teach them to pray. He himself was "filled" with the Spirit and did not pray in tongues which you claim is equal to praying "in the Spirit"! John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb and did not perform one miracle and certainly did not pray in tongues. The point is IF as you claim, praying in tongues is the spiritual and superior type of praying then Jesus who had the Spirit without measure NEVER is recorded by any of his observers (Apostles) as ever having even prayed "in the Spirit." Four thousand years of saints never had a spiritual led prayer according to your theory.

Tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit..just one of them...one of the most misunderstood. I have said over and over that tongues and interpretation of tongues is for the church! It did not come until the day of Pentecost.

What do you believe the promise was in Acts 1:8?

To show you how biased and subjective your view and interpretation of this passage is let's place along side it what Paul wrote to the Philippians:

Philip 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Here Paul lists several types of praying and none of them tongues proving there are a variety of prayer types. To pray any other way but "in the Spirit" is worthless praying. To preach any way but "in the Spirit" is worthless preaching.

You simply do not understand Paul's usage of "in the Spirit" as he routinely contrasts that phrase with "in the flesh."

I do not believe that tongues is the only thing done in the spirit. I believe our whole life should be Spirit led! I pointed out what Paul called tongues...it is praying with the spirit!

 

[The Biblicist]

You must have missed my post that I stated that the Holy Spirit can guide us both ways. I have prayed in the spirit and also prayed in my understanding. The prayer in understanding was Spirit led just as much as praying in tongues. I find that I can pray longer and find a deeper rest in praying in tongues!

Yes, I did miss that post. I found it this morning and replied to it. However, I am glad to see that you at least admit that one can be praying "in the Spirit" without tongues. With that admission in mind please read the following carefuly below.

Paul called tongues..."praying with your spirit"...

Let me approach this another way and see if you understand and agree with me. "my spirit" refers to Paul's born again human spirit or the inward man which delights in the law of God (Jn. 3:6; Rom. 7:23).

All true service to God must originate from within "my spirit" the regenerated spirit of man and can only be made manifest in the life of the believer by the indwelling power of the Spirit of God (Rom. 7:18; 8:9-13). If it does not originate with "my spirit" by the power of the Holy Spirit it is of "the flesh" or "according to the flesh."

Therefore, praying in tongues is ONE form of praying that originates with "my spirit" but any and all sorts of true Spirit led praying, including "praying with my mind" also originates with "my spirit".

That is ONE of many things you can do "with your spirit" and therefore just because tongues is on the list does not mean "praying with your spirit" always and automaticaly must refer to tongues. Granted it does in this particular context. However, you are assuming then that "praying with my spirit" is equal to the phrase praying "in the Spirit" and that is simply not true.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have said over and over that tongues and interpretation of tongues is for the church! It did not come until the day of Pentecost.

It was for the church in only ONE SENSE! It was for the churches of Christ to use as a "sign" to the Jews that their Messiah, the promised rest had come (1 Cor. 14:20-22). It was used this way by God in every single instance in the book of Acts as in every case Jews were present.

It was never designed for use among believers (1 Cor. 14:23) but Paul did not restrict it among believers as long as an interpretation accompanied it (1 Cor. 14:14-17; 26-27) and no more than three exercised it and then only one at a time in a decently and orderly manner.

What do you believe the promise was in Acts 1:8?

It is the fulfillment of many Old Testment prophecies concerning God's move from National Israel unto the Gentiles in regard to the COVENANT ADMINISTRATION of God within the professing kingdom of God on earth. It has to do with the mission of a New House of God - the church institution in contrast to the former Jewish House of God.

Jesus told the new house of God, the church, in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17-18 that the keys (administrative authority) in the kingdom would be given to them. This is inclusive of authority to make disciples, teaching them to observe all things, administer the ordinances and conduct public worship as the former house of God had done (Deut. 12:5-12).

Jesus told the leadership in the Jewish house of God that this kingdom authority would be taken from them in Matthew 21:43.

Jesus told the leadership in the Jewish house of God who "sat in the seat of Moes" (Kingdom administrative authority) that "YOUR house" would be left void meaning God would be forsaking that institution as HIS house and taking up residence in another new house of God - the church.

On the cross, the veil in the former house of God was split from the top down demonstrating God had left their house as predicted by Christ.

On the day of Pentecost the new house of God, built up a spiritual house of living stones assembled in one place and this transfer occurred (Acts 2:1) which was the common transferral method in every previous new house of God since the tabernacle (Ex. 40) and the temple (2 Chron. 7:1-3) where at the beginning after it had been built during the dedication service it was baptized/immersed in the shikinah glory of God ONCE and never repeated, when fire came down from heaven and lit the altar (tongues of fire upon the heads of the members of God's house in Jerusalem).

In the case of the New Testament institutional house of God this baptism was repeated only one more time in Acts 10 (Act 11:15-16) as affirmation that it was to include Gentile believers on an EQUAL basis with the Jewish members.

Take note that although thousands had been saved and added to the new House of God in Jerusalem since Pentecost that the nearest reference point that Peter could identify what happened in Acts 10 with was what happened "AT the beginning" with them on Pentecost, proving it was not a repetitious event with every individual believer but rather a corporate event with the inaugeration of the new house of God as it was with all former new houses of God.

Sign gifts were not performed by anyone but the apostles from Acts 2 to Acts 6:5 as these sign gifts were the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and conveyed through laying on of their hands (Acts 8:15-19).

I do not believe that tongues is the only thing done in the spirit. I believe our whole life should be Spirit led! I pointed out what Paul called tongues...it is praying with the spirit!

Well good, at least we agree on that.

 

[annsni]

Yes, I believe we hinder our spiritual growth by our choices and our unbelief!
We have to renew our mind and get in line with Gods Word.
I would say yes they could because today we can speak or keep silent.
Doesn't 1 Cor. 14:32 say "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophet".
Doesn't scripture teach us not to quench the Spirit?

How can a new believer - even a child - hinder spiritual growth by choices and unbelief after they are saved? I can safely say that I've never led someone to the Lord but told them "But wait - before you do this, make sure you know that you cannot speak in tongues so if you are going to, don't."

 

[annsni]

You still used your voice to cry out to God!
I have prayed the same prayer! Isn't it great that we serve a faithful God!

Oh, many of those prayers were silent as we sat in the hospital and the very crazy busy emergency room at New York Presbyterian Hospital.

 

[awaken]

Again I repost my exposition on 1 Cor. 13 and cessation of sign gifts.

It is a word of knowledge...a word is a fragmentary part of a sentence, so a word of knowledge would be a fragmentary part of the entire knowledge or counsel of God...not complete knowledge! God is all knowing, He has all knowledge. God still speaks to people and gives us a word of knowledge...a supernatural revelation by the Holy Spirit of certain facts in the mind of God.

When we see Him face to face and we are changed into His image...then we will know completley! We are still being built up in our faith!


Charity is a more excellent way.
Paul mentions speaks with tongues of men and angels.
All the gifts with out love profit nothing.
Charity suffereth long, kind, envieth not, vaunteth not itself, not puffed up, does not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, not easily provoked, thinks no evil, rejoices not in sin but truth, bears, believes, hopes, endures all things.

Charity never fails.

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge will fail, cease and vanish away.

We know and prophecy in part.When that which is perfect (telios- completeness, of full age, man) is come, then that in part will be done away.
When you become fully mature (full age) you will put away childish things.
Now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Now we have faith, hope and charity. Love is the greatest.
This chapter is about love and maturity of the believer! We will not reach complete maturity until Christ returns.

 

[awaken]

How can a new believer - even a child - hinder spiritual growth by choices and unbelief after they are saved? I can safely say that I've never led someone to the Lord but told them "But wait - before you do this, make sure you know that you cannot speak in tongues so if you are going to, don't."

I did not say you hindered anyone. I am saying as an individual I can hinder my growth! I can quench the Spirit! As a believer we can still make a choice not to do/follow what Christ leads us to do.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have personally witnessed pentecostal form of tongue speaking and Hindu tongue speakers here in the Northwest. There is not one bit of difference in the patterns of sound, physical behavior, condition of the eyes (glazed over) or the common way they induce themselves to perform (music accompaniment with a worship leader).

This is the common esctatic utterance that can be found in many world religions and many occultic practices.

The experience is described the same in both instances. Hindu's are slain in the spirit, fall upon the ground, lose control of themselves just as I have personally witnessed among various sorts of pentecostals from divergent denominations. The same description of euphoria, the same physical characteristics and I have been a close student of this phenoma for nearly 40 years and personally was involved at the beginning of my Christian ministery with this movement. I have family members involved and friends saved out of this movment never to speak in esctatic utterances and slain in the spirit activites again after God saved them.

 

[DHK]

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge will fail, cease and vanish away.

We know and prophecy in part.When that which is perfect (telios- completeness, of full age, man) is come, then that in part will be done away.
When you become fully mature (full age) you will put away childish things.
Now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Now we have faith, hope and charity. Love is the greatest.
This chapter is about love and maturity of the believer! We will not reach complete maturity until Christ returns.

Your interpretation fails. The word "teleios" is in the neuter gender, and therefore cannot possibly refer to Christ. If the Holy Spirit had intended it to refer to Christ He would have used a word in the masculine gender. But he didn't. It does not refer to Christ.
What is neuter? It is the Word of God, as the context explains.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is a word of knowledge...a word is a fragmentary part of a sentence, so a word of knowledge would be a fragmentary part of the entire knowledge or counsel of God...not complete knowledge! God is all knowing, He has all knowledge. God still speaks to people and gives us a word of knowledge...a supernatural revelation by the Holy Spirit of certain facts in the mind of God.

You are missing the point of "in part" as it is equally applied to "prophecy" as it is to "knowledge" both of which are REVELATORY gifts. Hence, that which is "perfect" (Gr. telios) is what completes revelatory gifts.

Prophets had these revelatory gifts in their production of the scriptures. When the scriptures were provided it replaced that prophetic ministry and God's people were not to be guided any longer by ORAL TRADITIONS passed down by those who heard the prophet when living but were to be guided by his COMPLETED WRITTEN revelation as it replaced his ORAL TRADITIONS and his entire ministry (Isa. 8:20) as the final authority for their faith and practice.

Likewise, the entire New Testament was provided by the apostles and/or those "prophets" directly under their supervision.

When Paul wrote this letter "NOW" they were in the infantile stage of this progressive growth to COMPLETION or MATURITY in revelation (vv. 11)provided by the apostles.

They were as it were looking into a brass mirrow which illustrated the incomplete and partial revelation they now had in comparison with the completed revelation they would "THEN" have once finished. Their "in part" condition was compared to a brass mirror that allowed the looker to see themselves but with limitations. Such was the case of revelatory gifts as not all Christians possessed such gifts and thus most Christians were dependent upon those gifted men (Acts 13:1) for divine leadership.

Paul never says that this illustration is about seeing Christ face to face. Rather, what the mirror provides is the reality of what OTHERS really view them to be or as others see their face directly. His point is that the finished revelation of God's will provides the people of God with something they can see God's will apart from depending upon gifted individuals.

Tongues had ceased BEFORE full revelation replaced partial revelatory gifts and that is why tongues is dropped out in the continuing discussion in verses 9-13. It ceased OF ITSELF and that is true to apostolic history.

However, the problem at the church at Corinth was that they viewed and judged spirituality by certain gifts and there was no scriptures for the churches as final authority to guide them. However, "NOW" even without completed written revelation of God's will there does exist PRINCIPLES to establish the proper use of spiritual gifts and to judge spirituality and that is "Faith, hope and Charity" and the greatest principle to show a "better" principle that does REVEAL true spirituality and the "better way" to use spiritual gifts is "charity." This principle as defined by Paul in verses 1-8 is used in chapter 14 to establish the proper use of spiritual gifts, especially the gift of tongues.

When we see Him face to face and we are changed into His image...then we will know completley! We are still being built up in our faith!

I Corinthians 13:12-13 says nothing about seeing Christ face to face. What he says is that he himself can be seen as he is by others. A good mirror shows you what others see when they look at you. That is precisely what the function of God's Word does (James 1:19-23) it reveals what YOU really look like and what the TRUTH really looks like.