Clear up confusion about tongues!

[awaken]

Up to this point you were doing good EXCEPT for one important detail. You would not admit that verse 2 and "speak unto God" is QUALIFIED BY THE CONTEXT of speaking without interpretation! Instead you JERK IT OUT of that context, separated from this context and attempt to interpret it to mean that speaking in tongues in general regardless of context is "unto God" period. If you interpret "unto God" by its specific contextual explanation you could never reinterpret that phrase from its contextual meaning!

And you still ignore that Paul calls it praying with our spirit, talking to God in vs. 28. Tongues throughout the Bible is speaking to God. In church it needs to be interpretated so the body can be edified.

So put it back in its context where its meaning is QUALIFIED BY THE CONTEXT to mean tongues spoken without an interpreter is "unto God" rather than tongues in general is "unto God." You have no contextual right to define verse 2 to mean that.

Yes, when other scriptures back it up in the same chapter...It is still in context!

 

[awaken]

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Look at the context of this statement. It is public speaking in the church. In verse 2 he describes what happens when you do speak publiclly in the church without interpetation. No one understands but God.

So why do you deny that we can speak to God in tongues in private. Paul tells us to in this verse. His correction is not in private..it is in the assembly to keep it orderly and no confusion.

Second, he directs them to pray for understanding. This prayer is not in tongues but it is a prayer that they do understand and is directed by the mind specifically for understanding of what they are saying in tongues. If no understanding is given them then "what shall I do?" I shall BE QUIET - I shall not speak in tongues. Hence AUDIBLE SPEAKING is SILENCED!

No, again you leave out speak to God. He instructs them to keep silent in the church/assembly..he is not saying keep silent in private! I pray silently all the time in church..in English and tongues!

Now if this is how you want to experience tongues in SILENCE then fine, because only God can understand whats happening in your spirit.

Unless we are called to speak in the assembly with the interpretation and in order as described in vs. 27, 28. Thank you for your permission to continue doing what God said I could all along...

 

[The Biblicist]

I have never said the correction was a private correction or that 1 Corinthians was not addressing the church.
Paul was correcting the church, I have never denied that. I said tongues was speaking to God. We can speak to God outside the church.

You most certainly did and I can if necessary pull up your post and prove you did. However, lets go on.

I see his "if" just as it is written. If he does speak in tongues (which he has already said he does in vs. 18). Not that "if" as if he never will.

You are misunderstanding what I said. I never denied he prayed in tongues. In this passage he is QUALIFYING how he prays in tongues when he does pray in tongues. His qualification is that he will not pray in tongues without understanding or sharing that understanding with listeners (v. 17). Now, read what I said again with this clarification.

No, he said only if he interpretes so others can know what he is saying.

No, he refuses to speak in tongues unless it is "WITH" understanding also. He will not speak in tongues WITHOUT understanding. Verse 14 presents your idea as a hypothetical consideration but verse 15 rejects that idea. Read it again!

No, it means pray both ways. Just like it said in previous verses. If you pray in tongues..pray ALSO with the understanding.

There are not two different prayers going on here! The praying in tongues is "WITH" understanding - meaning what he says out his mouth which comes from his spirit is UNDERSTOOD by his mind. He will not pray in tongues unless his mind comprehends what his mouth is saying as that is the ONLY WAY he can share the understanding with others listening.

Paul did not say "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding at the same time." He could not say this, because these two types of prayer are mutually exclusive: either you use your mind, and pray in your learned language, or you use your spirit man, and your mind is bypassed. Therefore, what Paul is saying here is that he will pray both ways, but not both ways at the same time, which would be impossible.

The conclusion to repudiatng tongue speaking in church (vv. 2-11) where only God understands what is said and no one else is don't speak that way unless the church can understand - v. 12! 13! So pray with you mind for understanding or don't speak in tongues at all (vv. 13-14).

Paul will not utter out his mouth what his mind cannot comprehend so when he does utter out his mouth tongues it will be "WITH" understanding also (v. 15) as that is precisely what he demands them to pray for in verse 13 so as to completely avoid the scenario described in verses 2-11! It is that simple and oh so simple!

 

[The Biblicist]

So why do you deny that we can speak to God in tongues in private. Paul tells us to in this verse.

No he does not! He tells them to shut up and not to speak audibly at all. Do you call that private tongue speaking at home? Try it!

 

[awaken]

You most certainly did and I can if necessary pull up your post and prove you did. However, lets go on.

I would like to see that post! I have never denied him correcting tongues in the assembly.

You are misunderstanding what I said. I never denied he prayed in tongues. In this passage he is QUALIFYING how he prays in tongues when he does pray in tongues. His qualification is that he will not pray in tongues without understanding or sharing that understanding with listeners (v. 17). Now, read what I said again with this clarification.

He was speaking of in the assembly...

No, he refuses to speak in tongues unless it is "WITH" understanding also. He will not speak in tongues WITHOUT understanding. Verse 14 presents your idea as a hypothetical consideration but verse 15 rejects that idea. Read it again!

Paul is correcting the use of tongues in the assembly! Praying in any manner can be done outside the assembly. Period!

There are not two different prayers going on here! The praying in tongues is "WITH" understanding - meaning what he says out his mouth which comes from his spirit is UNDERSTOOD by his mind. He will not pray in tongues unless his mind comprehends what his mouth is saying as that is the ONLY WAY he can share the understanding with others listening.

We disagree on this! Throughout this chapter it is repeated that tongues is talking to God! Also it is clear that the speaker does not understand what he is praying, otherwise he would not have to pray for interpretation. Tongues is speaking in a language unknown to the speaker. It is without understanding.

The conclusion to repudiatng tongue speaking in church (vv. 2-11) where only God understands what is said and no one else is don't speak that way unless the church can understand - v. 12! 13! So pray with you mind for understanding or don't speak in tongues at all (vv. 13-14).

In the assembly! The correction is in the assembly! We can speak to God by tongues or by our understanding in private and in the assembly as long as the assembly is edified by the interpretation.

Paul will not utter out his mouth what his mind cannot comprehend so when he does utter out his mouth tongues it will be "WITH" understanding also (v. 15) as that is precisely what he demands them to pray for in verse 13 so as to completely avoid the scenario described in verses 2-11! It is that simple and oh so simple!

In the assembly! I agree with Paul!

 

[awaken]

No he does not! He tells them to shut up and not to speak audibly at all. Do you call that private tongue speaking at home? Try it!

He tells them to keep silent in the church/ assembly!.."But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence IN THE CHURCH; and let him speak to himself, AND TO GOD".

 

[The Biblicist]

I would like to see that post! I have never denied him correcting tongues in the assembly.

I never said you denied he was correcting tongues in the assembly. What I said is that you have attempted to use verse 15-16 and verse 19 to show that Paul made a distinction between PRIVATE and CHURCH tongue speaking. Verse 15-17 makes no such case for PRIVATE tongue speaking and neither does verse 2 or verse 27 as you finally admit this is also a church context.

 

[The Biblicist]

He tells them to keep silent in the church/ assembly!.."But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence IN THE CHURCH; and let him speak to himself, AND TO GOD".

Do you know the meaning of "silence" versus the meaning of "speaking"?

 

[annsni]

We have to work out our own salvation.
If we are taught tongues do not exist how can we manifest them?
I was saved for years and never spoke in tongue, why? Because I was taught against them. I was in unbelief. Does that mean I could not, no!

What I am saying is if we do not understand a certain promise of God, how can we walk in it? Does that mean God did not promise it? NO! We just chose not to believe it and walk in it!
Does that change the fact that we are saved? NO! I was saved long before I came across this truth. I was in ignorance because the way I was taught by man!

Then this would mean that every new believer would be able to speak in tongues. It would also mean that we have the power to stop the Holy Spirit from working in us. Did any of those at Pentacost have the ability to stop the Spirit from causing them to speak in tongues?

 

[annsni]

True! But why pray silently...if the Holy Spirit can pray His perfect will? Just something to think about?

I prayed that my daughter would be healed when she was sick. But there were times that I didn't even know what to pray and just said "Help me. Help me. Help me." I knew that the Spirit was interceding for me and it didn't matter that I didn't know what to say - He did.

Why pray? Because God tells us to.

 

[The Biblicist]

I prayed that my daughter would be healed when she was sick. But there were times that I didn't even know what to pray and just said "Help me. Help me. Help me." I knew that the Spirit was interceding for me and it didn't matter that I didn't know what to say - He did.

Why pray? Because God tells us to.

Think of this, all the saints including John the Baptist and Jesus Christ could never pray "in the Spirit" and thus all their prayers were inferior to Awaken! They had no other kind of praying than non-Pentecostals have today.

Jesus poorly instructed the apostles when they asked him to teach them how to pray. He should have said, you can't really pray spiritually now, so wait to Pentecost until you can pray in tongues as that is real praying and it needs no instruction at all.

 

[awaken]

I never said you denied he was correcting tongues in the assembly. What I said is that you have attempted to use verse 15-16 and verse 19 to show that Paul made a distinction between PRIVATE and CHURCH tongue speaking. Verse 15-17 makes no such case for PRIVATE tongue speaking and neither does verse 2 or verse 27 as you finally admit this is also a church context.

Speaking to God can be private. He does not limit where we speak to him at.

 

[awaken]

Do you know the meaning of "silence" versus the meaning of "speaking"?

Don't belittle me! I know what silence is! But this is in the church...I have prayed in the church silently...He still says speak to God!

 

[awaken]

Then this would mean that every new believer would be able to speak in tongues. It would also mean that we have the power to stop the Holy Spirit from working in us. Did any of those at Pentacost have the ability to stop the Spirit from causing them to speak in tongues?

Yes, I believe we hinder our spiritual growth by our choices and our unbelief!
We have to renew our mind and get in line with Gods Word.
I would say yes they could because today we can speak or keep silent.
Doesn't 1 Cor. 14:32 say "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophet".
Doesn't scripture teach us not to quench the Spirit?

 

[awaken]

I prayed that my daughter would be healed when she was sick. But there were times that I didn't even know what to pray and just said "Help me. Help me. Help me." I knew that the Spirit was interceding for me and it didn't matter that I didn't know what to say - He did.

Why pray? Because God tells us to.

You still used your voice to cry out to God!
I have prayed the same prayer! Isn't it great that we serve a faithful God!

 

[awaken]

Think of this, all the saints including John the Baptist and Jesus Christ could never pray "in the Spirit" and thus all their prayers were inferior to Awaken! They had no other kind of praying than non-Pentecostals have today.

THat remark was uncalled for! I wish I could open up the heavens like Jesus did!

Jesus poorly instructed the apostles when they asked him to teach them how to pray. He should have said, you can't really pray spiritually now, so wait to Pentecost until you can pray in tongues as that is real praying and it needs no instruction at all.

How could they manifest what they did not have? As I said before, you can not find tongues before the Day of Pentecost!

The Holy Spirit and His interests and methods are never to be treated with irreverence, disgust or mockery. Jesus sternly warns the religious leaders of his day after they attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to "Beelzebub" (the prince of the devils).

 

[awaken]

Again....
The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit completely changes our relationship with God. It isn't the same relationship that existed in the Old Testament. Many oppose this change. Saint Paul taught that the "things of the Spirit of God" are in this category. It's "natural" to view the subject of tongues as "foolishness"--but we need to keep in mind that, like it or not, speaking in tongues is listed by God's Word as one of the "things of the Spirit of God". It's listed as one of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit. The reader needs to know that I share the same struggle as anyone else in this area. Saint Paul taught that we must "renew our minds" toward the priorities (will) of God (Rom. 12:2). Renewing our mind is not always a pleasant process. It involves "a death to self" in favor of the way God thinks about things--and death is rarely pleasant. If it isn't important to change our natural human thinking to line up with God's priorities, Paul wouldn't have made it a Scriptural command.

 

[The Biblicist]

Speaking to God can be private. He does not limit where we speak to him at.

Of course prayer is to God and of course it can be UNSPOKEN! However, this chapter says not one word about using tongues for private praying OUTSIDE the assembly nor justfies it for that use. In fact, it plainly states what tongues are to be used for and limits their use in the church.

 

[The Biblicist]

Don't belittle me! I know what silence is! But this is in the church...I have prayed in the church silently...He still says speak to God!

Yes, prayer is always to God but tongues are not always to God! That is the point made by Paul in verses 20-22.

 

[The Biblicist]

THat remark was uncalled for! I wish I could open up the heavens like Jesus did!

I made my point. Your idea about tongues being the more spiritual superior praying "in the Spirit" makes a ridicule of Christ and his teaching his disciples to pray and his own praying NOT IN THE SPIRIT (as you define the phrase "in the Spirit.").

How could they manifest what they did not have? As I said before, you can not find tongues before the Day of Pentecost!

News flash! They prayed "IN THE SPIRIT" before Pentecost, in fact, Christ NEVER prayed but "in the Spirit" and NEVER did anything other than "in the Spirit." All the saints and prophets prayed and acted "in the Spirit" BEFORE Pentecost. Your interpretation of "in the Spirit" is plainly and obviously false!